Tree of Life

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: Scripture says that death entered because of sin

HP: Agreed

Amy: so how does that fit into the idea that Adam and Eve had to eat from the Tree of Life to live forever?

HP: There are only two possible options. Either one was to live forever or one was not to live forever. If they were not to live forever prior to the fall, death would have had to have been invoked prior to sin. What else stood in the way of eternal life other than sin?

If man did not possess eternal life prior to the fall, man was not created with an eternal soul. Scripture tells us differently. Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Man might have been of like kind to the animals God created, but it would pose a great difficulty with the following text.
Ge 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Amy: I don't think that death was a part of creation until after the fall. Thoughts?

HP: Then we are back to the only other option, and that is man was created to live forever and as such in possession of eternal life prior to the fall.

 

[trustitl]

Scripture says that death entered because of sin - so how does that fit into the idea that Adam and Eve had to eat from the Tree of Life to live forever? I don't think that death was a part of creation until after the fall. Thoughts?

It fits perfectly. Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil which was sin. The result of it was they were removed from access to the Tree of Life and received the death sentence.

Here is where I think people go astray. They think Adam died spiritually rather than the death being what most people think of when you say death. Scripture does not support the "spiritual death" idea but does natural death.

Flesh by nature is corruptible and is why it cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Flesh did not become corruptible because of sin, it merely began the process of corruption without access to the Tree of Life. Sin did not cause some genetic mutation to immediatly occur in Adam and Eve but rather allowed the corruption of it to begin.

We know the wages of sin is death. The failure to make that death be spiritual death causes all kinds of twistings and turnings of scripture. I know this is why out of line with what most of you think, but consider it and look at scripture with this in mind. I think this is of upmost importance in understanding Romans 6-8.

 

[Amy.G]

HP: Agreed

HP: There are only two possible options. Either one was to live forever or one was not to live forever. If they were not to live forever prior to the fall, death would have had to have been invoked prior to sin. What else stood in the way of eternal life other than sin?

If man did not possess eternal life prior to the fall, man was not created with an eternal soul. Scripture tells us differently. Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Man might have been of like kind to the animals God created, but it would pose a great difficulty with the following text.
Ge 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.




HP: Then we are back to the only other option, and that is man was created to live forever and as such in possession of eternal life prior to the fall.

HP, those were not my quotes. I think they were Ann's. :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

"While you were dead in tresspasses and sins" God "made you alive".

The 2nd death is the one where "God destroys both body and soul in fiery hell" according to Matt 10:28.

The Tree of Life and the pre-fall condition of man by contrast is life both physically and spiritually.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: HP, those were not my quotes. I think they were Ann's.

HP: You are so right. I apologize to both of you.

 

[steaver]

The 2nd death is the one where "God destroys both body and soul in fiery hell" according to Matt 10:28.

Do you mean the lake of fire? Hell is just a holding place, correct?

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by annsni
Scripture says that death entered because of sin - so how does that fit into the idea that Adam and Eve had to eat from the Tree of Life to live forever? I don't think that death was a part of creation until after the fall. Thoughts?

TrustitL: It fits perfectly. Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil which was sin. The result of it was they were removed from access to the Tree of Life and received the death sentence.

Here is where I think people go astray. They think Adam died spiritually rather than the death being what most people think of when you say death. Scripture does not support the "spiritual death" idea but does natural death.

Flesh by nature is corruptible and is why it cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. Flesh did not become corruptible because of sin, it merely began the process of corruption without access to the Tree of Life. Sin did not cause some genetic mutation to immediatly occur in Adam and Eve but rather allowed the corruption of it to begin.

We know the wages of sin is death. The failure to make that death be spiritual death causes all kinds of twistings and turnings of scripture. I know this is why out of line with what most of you think, but consider it and look at scripture with this in mind. I think this is of upmost importance in understanding Romans 6-8.

HP: If flesh is corrupuptible ‘by nature’ and not by sin, then how can physical death be any penalty at all?? According to the logic you employ they already had that death sentence “by nature.” Then you tell us that the wages of sin is ‘spiritual death.’ I thought you said earlier in your post that Adam and Eve “Scripture DOES NOT support the “spiritual death” idea but does the natural death.” You are not being consistent in the least as I see it. You are contradicting yourself. Possibly you might consider re-writing your post so as to be viewed as more consistent.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Annsni: Scripture says that death entered because of sin

HP: Agreed
Quote:

Annsni: so how does that fit into the idea that Adam and Eve had to eat from the Tree of Life to live forever?

HP: There are only two possible options. Either one was to live forever or one was not to live forever. If they were not to live forever prior to the fall, death would have had to have been invoked prior to sin. What else stood in the way of eternal life other than sin?

If man did not possess eternal life prior to the fall, man was not created with an eternal soul. Scripture tells us differently. Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Man might have been of like kind to the animals God created, but it would pose a great difficulty with the following text.
Ge 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Annsni: I don't think that death was a part of creation until after the fall. Thoughts?

HP: Then we are back to the only other option, and that is man was created to live forever and as such in possession of eternal life prior to the fall.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Physical flesh was not created to last for eternity. Flesh simply was created as a temporary house for an eternal soul. The Tree of Life could not have accomplished life eternal for the flesh, for again, it was not designed to inherit eternity.

I see two possible ideas consistent with the Tree of Life. First, that it was designed to keep the flesh as it was created for the full duration God allowed it to remain on this earth. Secondly that the Tree of Life, being a type of Christ (Christ being eternal) would keep the spirit/soul of man in perfect harmony and communion with their Creator God as long as they remained on this earth and in the life to come.

Because the flesh was not created to live in eternity, that does NOT mandate that it was corruptible by design. There is no reason to believe that it would have had to aged in the least if allowed consistent access with the Tree of Life, although God would have to change its nature at some point in time in order for the spirit/soul of man to inhabit eternity. This might have been accomplished by the translation of the flesh as Enoch and Elijah saw. There is no reason to believe that the physical bodies as created were corruptible by nature, or that if sin had not occurred that the flesh would have decayed and seen physical death at some point as we now know it. Again, if sin had not happened, God could have simply translated those at a time appointed by Himself, allowing the spirit/soul of man to inhabit eternity with God.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said -

"While you were dead in tresspasses and sins" God "made you alive".

The 2nd death is the one where "God destroys both body and soul in fiery hell" according to Matt 10:28.

The Tree of Life and the pre-fall condition of man by contrast is life both physically and spiritually.

Do you mean the lake of fire? Hell is just a holding place, correct?

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

God Bless! :thumbs:

I agree that it looks like the 2nd death -- the Lake of Fire is what Christ is speaking about in Matt 10 -- but here are the words He uses -- so maybe they are the same thing.

Matt 10
28"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

That Matt 10 "Hell" is the greek fiery Ghenna.

The Rev 20 "hell" is the greek Hades.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

If man did not possess eternal life prior to the fall, man was not created with an eternal soul. Scripture tells us differently. Ge 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Man might have been of like kind to the animals God created, but it would pose a great difficulty with the following text.
Ge 1:26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

When you take your picture you capture your image on film.

Your point about "A living soul" vs an "immortal soul" or "eternal soul" is a good one. Why do you suppose the Word of God doesn't ever use terms like "immortal soul" or "eternal soul"?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[trustitl]

Quote:
Originally Posted by annsni
Scripture says that death entered because of sin - so how does that fit into the idea that Adam and Eve had to eat from the Tree of Life to live forever? I don't think that death was a part of creation until after the fall. Thoughts?


HP: If flesh is corrupuptible ‘by nature’ and not by sin, then how can physical death be any penalty at all?? According to the logic you employ they already had that death sentence “by nature.” Then you tell us that the wages of sin is ‘spiritual death.’ I thought you said earlier in your post that Adam and Eve “Scripture DOES NOT support the “spiritual death” idea but does the natural death.” You are not being consistent in the least as I see it. You are contradicting yourself. Possibly you might consider re-writing your post so as to be viewed as more consistent.

Physical death was the result because God removed them from the Tree of Life which kept them from the corruption that brought about death.

I don't think I said that the wages of sin is ‘spiritual death.’ If I did it was unintended. I meant to say that those that say that the penalty was spiritual death are in error.

 

[trustitl]

Physical flesh was not created to last for eternity. Flesh simply was created as a temporary house for an eternal soul. The Tree of Life could not have accomplished life eternal for the flesh, for again, it was not designed to inherit eternity.

I see two possible ideas consistent with the Tree of Life. First, that it was designed to keep the flesh as it was created for the full duration God allowed it to remain on this earth. Secondly that the Tree of Life, being a type of Christ (Christ being eternal) would keep the spirit/soul of man in perfect harmony and communion with their Creator God as long as they remained on this earth and in the life to come.

Because the flesh was not created to live in eternity, that does NOT mandate that it was corruptible by design. There is no reason to believe that it would have had to aged in the least if allowed consistent access with the Tree of Life, although God would have to change its nature at some point in time in order for the spirit/soul of man to inhabit eternity. This might have been accomplished by the translation of the flesh as Enoch and Elijah saw. There is no reason to believe that the physical bodies as created were corruptible by nature, or that if sin had not occurred that the flesh would have decayed and seen physical death at some point as we now know it. Again, if sin had not happened, God could have simply translated those at a time appointed by Himself, allowing the spirit/soul of man to inhabit eternity with God.

I agree with what you are saying about flesh.

I would choose option two regarding the Tree of Life. I don't think the Tree had anything to do with one's spiritual condition. If option two were true would it not follow that they would not have eaten from the forbidden tree, unless perhaps they forgot to eat their portion the day they sinned.

Your suggestion that God would have translated them somehow like Enoch is what I think would have occurred.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TrustitL: Physical death was the result because God removed them from the Tree of Life which kept them from the corruption that brought about death.

HP: We should be reminded that man is a two part being, and sin has its affect upon both. Certainly sin brought about physical degeneration, physical corruption and eventual death in cooperation with the timing of it as we know it. To attach ‘the penalty of sin’ to physical death I see as being in error. Sin is at its root a spiritual reality with spiritual consequences that the physical have no bearing upon neither could they.

The soul/spirit that sins, IT shall certainly die. Scripture is replete with ties of that which lives eternally with the penalty of sin. One of the plainest I can think of is the passage found in 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

There are many numerous reasons why physical death is NOT the penalty for sin. One that comes to the forefront of my mind is that fact that Christ suffered in our place, taking the penalty of sin upon Himself so that we might not have to suffer its penalty. Have we ceased from physical suffering as a result of repentance and faith in Christ? Is it a guarantee that we will not face physical death? If Christ atoned and paid the penalty, are we to believe that it has no bearing on that which we are most likely to suffer and face if we do not live until the rapture takes place? I think not. Reason would tell us that the penalty of sin, having been paid for by Christ, will NOT be suffered or encountered by His children. Why? The penalty has been atoned for. It will not, nor could it be required of us once laid upon the sole Sacrifice suffering and dying upon that cross at Calvary IF we are in Christ. The penalty has been atoned for and satisfied as it related to God and His law never to be poured out or required of those that fulfill the stated conditions of acceptance with God. That penalty paid must be eternal separation from God just as 2Thess 1:8-9 tells us.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Your point about "A living soul" vs an "immortal soul" or "eternal soul" is a good one. Why do you suppose the Word of God doesn't ever use terms like "immortal soul" or "eternal soul"?

HP: I cannot follow you clearly on this one BR. There was no intention on my part to make any distinction between a living soul and an immortal or eternal soul. Certainly the soul/spirit of man is not immortal in the same sense that God alone is immortal, but immortal carries more than one meaning. We both realize that we are created beings and as such have had a beginning. God had no such beginning. Still if one is to use a common definition of ‘immortal,’ that being simply “possessing life that will have no end,” (Noah webster) we are indeed immortal.

We are indeed in possession of an eternal soul, one that will spend eternity in either heaven with God or in hell with the devil and his angels. I can think of no plainer concept in the Word of God than that which would be in support of the existence of man possessing an eternal immortal soul.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I agree with what you are saying about flesh.

I would choose option two regarding the Tree of Life. I don't think the Tree had anything to do with one's spiritual condition. If option two were true would it not follow that they would not have eaten from the forbidden tree, unless perhaps they forgot to eat their portion the day they sinned.

Your suggestion that God would have translated them somehow like Enoch is what I think would have occurred.

Do you believe in a bodily physical resurrection? I believe the intent of the Genesis story is to indicate that Man would have lived for ever in his body until sin entered the world. Neoplatonist and gnostic have this idea that the material world is by nature corruptable. For Scientist would say that this is one of the laws of thermodynamics. Things degenerate back into energy. The thing about Einstien is that he showed how energy (enough of it) could be translated into matter. Who's to say that by mans disobedience the material world then became corrupt? Now if you told me that Genesis is just a legend and that everything is symbolic then you would have an argument. But using Genesis as it is writen you come close to gnostic and neoplationic beliefs. You may get away with it because you don't believe Jesus is a demurge.

 

[LeBuick]

I think this entire discussion of physical vs spiritual death is argued by Paul here in Romans. What we need is to understand his argument.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

I see the penalty of one man's sin as spiritual death. This entire passage appears to deal with the soul and not the flesh. That's the way i see it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thinkingstuff: Do you believe in a bodily physical resurrection? I believe the intent of the Genesis story is to indicate that Man would have lived for ever in his body until sin entered the world.

HP: I for one indeed do believe in a physical resurrection, although I believe the physical, in tack or mere dust, will have to be changed in order to inhabit eternity. 1Co 15:51 ¶ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Entropy is a reality with the whole universe that we see, is it not? Does not God tell us that? 2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. The eternal cannot inhabit the temporal for eternity, for the temporal is not eternal. Only that which is eternal by nature will inhabit eternity. Again God plainly states that things which are seen, (that would be the human body as we know it) is not nor can be eternal in nature. Not by design or in reality.

I see nothing to indicate in Scripture nor experience that would indicate that God designed Adam to live captured for eternity in human flesh with all its limitations. He, i.e., God desires to set those that would repent and turn in trust to the Savior, Jesus Christ, from the bondage and limitations this flesh imposes upon us. Are there any on this list that are looking forward to that glorious release? Such freedom demands faithfulness. 2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I think this entire discussion of physical vs spiritual death is argued by Paul here in Romans. What we need is to understand his argument.

Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

I see the penalty of one man's sin as spiritual death. This entire passage appears to deal with the soul and not the flesh. That's the way i see it.

It is right in the verses you quoted though you leave out a very important word: vs. 13"For before the law was given, sin was in the world but sin is not taken into account when there is no law. vs.14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses," Note that these verses also are about a contrast between Adam and Christ where Adam stands for mans condemnation and Christ for mans justification. Man is a three part being (have you read watchman nee?) Body Soul and Spirit. When man sinned he died in all three catagories of himself. Christ physically died for us taken all our condemnation onto himself. Now this is key. He rose physically from the dead so that:

Romans 8:22-25; We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerlyfor our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies for in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently

If he is to redeme our bodies I might say why? Unless it wasn't the original condition of Adam.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thinkingstuff: If he is to redeem our bodies I might say why? Unless it wasn't the original condition of Adam.

HP: I believe God has something far better for us than the bondage and limitations mere flesh genders. :thumbs: :godisgood: