Trial date set in first of five Missouri Baptist lawsuits

[Hardsheller]

I wasn't responding to the questions you presented. He did not ask those. He compared incorporating with suing. They are as different as night an day.

I don't think they're unrelated.

If we can appeal to Caesar's protection in any part of our Christian and Corporate life do we not have the right to appeal to Caesar's protection when it comes to property rights?

If Churches and related entities are going to engage in activities and actions that require the state's approval then to say that we cannot appeal to the state for justice when by the same legal system other brothers attempt to steal from us seems like an inconsistent argument to me.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

I don't think they're unrelated.

If we can appeal to Caesar's protection in any part of our Christian and Corporate life do we not have the right to appeal to Caesar's protection when it comes to property rights?

If Churches and related entities are going to engage in activities and actions that require the state's approval then to say that we cannot appeal to the state for justice when by the same legal system other brothers attempt to steal from us seems like an inconsistent argument to me.

The issue is suing our brothers. There is no issue biblically with suing or being protected from the lost. That principle is clear in scripture.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]1 Corinthians 6:1-8[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica] 1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.[/FONT]

Paul was clear as water on this issue. There is no room for wiggle here. Even if those wronged must suffer with no further recourse, Christians suing in secular courts is against scripture. God said do not do it. Period. To do so fails to rely on God. It says I will get justice even if God is not interested in the justice I want.

Any wrong that is being done by the state convention is shameful. Suing the convention is shameful. But the bigger problem and what is most shameful is that this is made so public and now the ministry of the gospel is hurt.

 

[gb93433]

What you want to do may seem right in your own mind, but it is contrary to scripture and dishonoring to God because it it is contrary to scripture.

The "better suggestion" is to do what scripture says to do and have faith in God, instead of having faith in a secular government.

Jesus trusted people but he did not put his faith in them.

Anything which is contrary to God's word is wrong.

You have to prove that what I wrote about prosecution was wrong. To prove your point you are going to do more than just say I am wrong.

Where would draw the line on prosecution? Obviously you said that you would never want a fornicator prosecuted. How about a drug dealer? How about an abortionist? How about a thief? How about a drunk? How about a prostitute? How about one who commits adultery with another man's wife?

 

[Hardsheller]

The issue is suing our brothers. There is no issue biblically with suing or being protected from the lost. That principle is clear in scripture.

NO, the issue is suing our brothers in the local church. The Missouri Baptist Convention is not a local church.

 

[gb93433]

NO, the issue is suing our brothers in the local church. The Missouri Baptist Convention is not a local church.

So just go ahead and sue them for all their worth so you can get their money and delare it a victory. What a great witness that is to the nation. Just think of all the millions who will be won to Christ and what will last for eternity of out of that victory.

No that is not laying up for themselves treasues on earth but all that money and land will go into heaven. All done in the name of Jesus as Lord.

What a theology!!

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

NO, the issue is suing our brothers in the local church. The Missouri Baptist Convention is not a local church.

There is nothing in that passage that isolates this biblical principle to just the local church. And that limitation does not even make sense.

 

[Hardsheller]

There is nothing in that passage that isolates this biblical principle to just the local church. And that limitation does not even make sense.

So the entire letter was not addressed to a local church?

Is Paul not addressing local church discipline? And specifically as applies to the Christians in Corinth?

If Paul is so concerned about a Christian's witness to the Lost World outside of the local church then why did he not allow the Jews in Jerusalem to kill him like they killed Jesus instead of appealing to Caesar?

The truth is that Paul used the Legal System when it benefited his ministry. Are we not then free in Missouri to do the same thing?

 

[canadyjd]

I wasn't responding to the questions you presented. He did not ask those. He compared incorporating with suing. They are as different as night an day.

I thought Hardsheller was pointing out that some of the people criticizing the MBC also incorporate their churches to protect individual members from lawsuits. They are putting themselves under the protection of their State Courts, and would certainly use that protection if their church were "sued".

That does seem to have a connection with the ongoing controversy in the MBC.

I do not believe the MBC should be settling this matter in a secular court, and would point out that Paul told us it would be better to be defrauded than to have a matter settled before a secular court.

I also see where good Christian people will disagree with me on this, and not want to allow several tens of millions of dollars worth of MBC assets be essentially denied to the majority of Missouri Baptists who voted for the conservative change.

peace to youraying:

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

So the entire letter was not addressed to a local church?

yes

Is Paul not addressing local church discipline?

Yes. But you will have to provide the break down to me that suggests this is only for the local church. In Colossians Paul spoke of the preimenance of Christ. That was a letter to the local church. Just how do you suppose that should be applied? I could give an example of every letter Paul wrote. But the truth is these are biblical precepts we are to live by everywhere.

And specifically as applies to the Christians in Corinth?

Is scripture not for our example? According to your logic we should only apply this verse of Pauls to the folks in Corinth at the time this letter was written. Therefore it has no application to anyone today anywhere.

If Paul is so concerned about a Christian's witness to the Lost World outside of the local church then why did he not allow the Jews in Jerusalem to kill him like they killed Jesus instead of appealing to Caesar?

There is no equivelant comparison here to Christians suing each other. The principle here is not about using the secular courts. It is about how Christians treat each other. Christians have no business suing each other period. It is important to remember that Jesus was fulfilling prophecy. He was providing salvation. He was submitting to the will of the Father.

The truth is that Paul used the Legal System when it benefited his ministry. Are we not then free in Missouri to do the same thing?

No. You also need to remember Paul was sought out by them. He did not go to them. Paul was doing what God called him to do. When God was finished Paul went home.

 

[gb93433]

The reason we could not settle it among ourselves is because the trustees of the agencies would not agree to binding Christian arbitration. This is a documented fact.

Do you know who made up the arbitration board?

 

[Hardsheller]

Do you know who made up the arbitration board?

There was no arbitration board because the trustees of the agencies would not even agree on principle to even begin a binding arbitration process.

 

[gb93433]

There was no arbitration board because the trustees of the agencies would not even agree on principle to even begin a binding arbitration process.

That is a sad day when leaders will not agree on an arbitration process. One has to wonder other than money what is at the core of this mess.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

I thought Hardsheller was pointing out that some of the people criticizing the MBC also incorporate their churches to protect individual members from lawsuits. They are putting themselves under the protection of their State Courts, and would certainly use that protection if their church were "sued".

Which has nothing to do with suing another Christian. And while I believe an argument can be made to support that we are not to incorporate. One has nothing to do with the other.

That does seem to have a connection with the ongoing controversy in the MBC.

It has no connection. The logic is if we use the state for one thing should we not be then free to use the state for other things including suing a Christian brother. The use of the state in an unrelated matter does not give good reason to use it for another.

I do not believe the MBC should be settling this matter in a secular court, and would point out that Paul told us it would be better to be defrauded than to have a matter settled before a secular court.

I agree. And this whole thing is shameful. Even the writing about publically is shameful. Any publicization of this is shameful.

I also see where good Christian people will disagree with me on this, and not want to allow several tens of millions of dollars worth of MBC assets be essentially denied to the majority of Missouri Baptists who voted for the conservative change.

peace to youraying:

By good I assume you mean of good intentions. Because scripture is clear good intentions are not possible. (If that is what you meant)

 

[gb93433]

I do not believe the MBC should be settling this matter in a secular court, and would point out that Paul told us it would be better to be defrauded than to have a matter settled before a secular court.

I also see where good Christian people will disagree with me on this, and not want to allow several tens of millions of dollars worth of MBC assets be essentially denied to the majority of Missouri Baptists who voted for the conservative change.

God is honored when people honor him through their obedience to scripture. That convention can shift focus in the next election. Whoever takes it away can get it but then be returned shortly thereafter to the people who had it taken from them. God may decide to take the entire thing away.

God’s work is not about a majority or money. It is about his kingdom. Some of the most effective ministries are among high school and college students. Those ministries require little money. For me to reach my neighbor requires almost no money but more of my time. A lot of campus ministries meet on campus at no cost to the students.

I believe that if every church building was torn down we would have a stronger more cooperative church than we see today. When people get wealth they want to protect it. When people have nothing they work together to help each other. When I was a kid the farmers worked together to get in the crops now each farmer has his own equipment. When several families worked together we got to know them and the crop got in very fast. No hired help was needed. The cost was very low because a group of families helped each other. That is the way the church would be if a crisis came along. But now the church is wealthy yet poor at the same time.

 

[Hardsheller]

Timothy,

I see you are SBC.

If you are convicted that we in Missouri are in error and have departed from scripture then it is imperative that you go to San Antonio this June and make a motion that the MBC Convention be held accountable to the larger national convention.

Anything less is mere stone throwing.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Timothy,

I see you are SBC.

If you are convicted that we in Missouri are in error and have departed from scripture then it is imperative that you go to San Antonio this June and make a motion that the MBC Convention be held accountable to the larger national convention.

Anything less is mere stone throwing.

So what you are saying is that no one should take part int his conversation in this board unless they agree with what the folks in Missouri are doing. In the end it isn't what I think. It is what God said.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

Churches should stay out of entanglements such as these. They should focus on their duty, to preach Jesus Christ and him crucified, and avoid all of the state conventions, colleges, etc that can cause strife.

If the church wants to associate with other churches, then form a loose Association, with only minimal amount of money donated for the purpose of carrying out basic business. They do not need Presidents, or Boards, or Newspapers, or Colleges. If there was ever a reason that churches should be separate entities unto themselves, not interfering with the matters of another church, then this is it.

 

[gb93433]

So what you are saying is that no one should take part int his conversation in this board unless they agree with what the folks in Missouri are doing. In the end it isn't what I think. It is what God said.

Non-Christians listen to the news and have an opinion too. Usually it is close or dead on to the truth.

The MO Baptists are simply revealing who they really are. some are refusing to get involved and show their complacency and maybe fear. Others are letting Satan use them personally as an instrument of unrighteousness while the world watches the boxing match. The world has filled the spectator boxes while the MO Baptists are in the arena beating each other up telling the world they will know we are Christians by our love for one another. Those who think Christians are idots will have that confirmed as they watch and comment on the sport of godlessness being played out before their eyes.

 

[Salamander]

The unreal Christians are those who put politics or power above the humble nature that Christ displayed. They use religion for something other than praising God.

You must be referring to the "humble" nature Jesus displayed when he fashioned a whip of cords and drove out the money changers in the Temple, or maybe when he humbly called the pharisees a generation of vipers? Maybe when he addressed the Syrophenecian woman as a dog and not of the children?