Trib begins

The key to equating Babylon = Rome is 17:9

"The calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits . . "

(The woman is Babylon the Great of 17:5)

Now using your wise mind, recall what ancient city was set on seven hills.

 

Yes,
That seems clear which i checked the
internet at:

click here --> Chick Comics <-- click here

 

I'll stick with what
the New Testament has to say on these matters.

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables.

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. I believe the major
outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc&gt

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.

For example: Matthew 24:14 (HCSB):

This good news of the kingdom will be
proclaimed in all the world as a testimony
to all nations. And then the end will come.

As long as the good news of the kingdom
keeps spreading to all nations,
the church age continues.

 

Many years ago I thought of the Church Fathers as being men who should be revered because they were closest to the Lord. Study will change your mind if you think the way I used to think. I took them by faith as always being right without researching their beliefs. 'Up to the time of Origen-men of God stressed the literal hermeneutic causing apologists to be premillennial.

*Origen {185-252} believed that Christ was a ransom paid to Satan to satisfy any claims Satan had against man. This is error.

*Iranaeus {130-202} His view on the atonement was this. 'Christ recapitulated in Himself all the stages of life, including what belongs to us as sinners. His obedience substituted for Adam's disobedience, and this should effect a transformation in our lives.' Dr. Charles C. Ryrie "Basic Theology" p. 355.

This true what Iranaeus said but is a very, very weak view of Christ's atonement.

*Augustine {185-254} This sainted Catholic has adopted many Protestants who have gone down the same path of error that he walked and taught. The Amillennial eschatology was popularized by Augustine. So all of you Amillennialists are little Augustinians scholars.

The Fathers felt that they were in the last days and expected the immediate second coming of Christ to bring in the Kingdom.' Dr. Ryrie "Basic Theology" p. 520.

Research the Alexandria School of Theology in Egypt and you will find out why some of these men ended up out in 'left field.' This city of quasi-theologians 'allegorized almost all of Scripture until any persons ideas were thought correct. They did this not only in the Book of Revelation but throughout all of the Word of God.

Also, check out the influence that the philosophy of Aristotle and Socrates had on the quasi-Christian theology of Augustine. The close by-product of St. Augustine is modern day Calvinism. From this mix of philosophy and theology has come the view of an unjust God Who only died on the Cross for His elect, while He thought it wise to damn the majority just to prove His own authority, glory and power.

Drs. R. C. Sproul, Arthur W. Pink, John Piper, J.I. Packer and others proudly shout the praises of the Lord who saves those that He hand picks and of His own will and accord damns the vast majority of human sinners. These men have some truth but distort much of the Word of the Living God.

After the Apostolate died-error started seeping into the old ship Zion, even in the teaching of Christian men today.

With excellent scholarship today and many tools in which to study the Bible, the pre-Trib--pre-Millennial view has risen to the top. Cream always rises to the top. But, throughout all the centuries there have been men and women who have believed the truth.

 

Amen, Brother Ray.
The ECF = early church fathers,
were like us, saved by grace.
What counts is the things that
got written in the Bible.

 

What indeed counts is what is in the Bible. Too bad you persist in misinterpreting it.

The ECFs did occassionally disagree on some things (or look at things from complementary perspectives), but given their proximity to the apostles, it would behoove us to listen to them when they were in substantial agreement regarding a doctrine. The presence of the church in the tribulation before the Second Coming is one such doctrine. None of them ever heard of the mythical pre-trib evacuation of the church before the tribulation. That is a doctrine invented by man in the 19th century. As for me, I give more credence to patristic consensus than to modern day "scholars" who read their invented concepts into the Sacred Scripture.

 

It seems rather you are sticking with a novel interpretation of what you think the NT should "say".

Actually, only TWO questions are being asked:
1. "When will these things be?" (referring of course to the Temple being destroyed)
2. What will be the sign [singular] of
Your coming and of the end of the age?

In other words, the disciples are asking for the sign(s) that refers to that point in history in which Christ comes back at the end of the age. And the manner in which Christ answers this question also indicates the two (His coming and the End of the age) occur at the same time.

When you start with the wrong premises its no wonder you arrive at the wrong conclusion. To suggest verse 31 all of sudden refers back to time seven years before what is described in verse 30 does tremendous violence to the text.

Here's the passage in context starting with v.29:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shakened. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels and with a great sound of a trumpet, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another." (Matt 24:29-31)

Therefore the order of the events are as follows:
1. Cosmic signs immediately after the Trib.
2. Sign of the Son of Man
3. The Coming of the Son of Man
4. The Son of Man gathers His elect (the "rapture")
The passage indicates 2,3,4 more less occur as one event as they are intimately joined together in Jesus' discourse. This is the straightforward reading of the passage, and it doesn't require the hermeneutical gymnastics pre-tribbers employ in order to "discover" their invented concept in the text.

Paul also considers the coming of the Lord and His gathering of the elect as basically one event (2 Thess 2:1)
"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him..." Paul (like Jesus!) considers these two realities of the same event. Nowhere does the context indicate that the second reality mentioned ("our gathering together to Him") precedes the first ("the coming of our Lord") by seven years.
Then Paul goes on to say that the Day of Christ (in which both occur) will not come unless the Apostasy [departure from the faith, not from the planet] comes first and the Antichrist is revealed (v.3-4). Then at Christ's coming the Antichrist will be destroyed (v.8).

Therefore we see that these Scripture passages, when interpreted in a straigtforward fashion, are consistent with each other and show a posttribulation coming of Christ and gathering of the elect. Indeed, this is how the Church has always understood these passages until about 200 years ago.

 

Doubting Thomas: "Indeed, this is how the Church has always understood these passages until about 200 years ago."

I am still amazed that you are so profoundly
expert on the hisory of the Church that
you know intimate details that nobody else
knows. Yes, amazed in awe.

Recall that I have three sources of my
pretribualtion rapture/resurrection.
You defeated two of them by defining
"and" to your postrib pre-requirement.
How does the Book of Revelation show
what will happen?

 

Ray the Fathers had one thing right and that was the part in the above post that said:

"The Fathers felt that they were in the last days and expected the immediate second coming of Christ to bring in the Kingdom.'" Dr. Ryrie "Basic Theology" p. 520.

Paul even thought this. Didn't the last days start somewhere at the end of the 4 gospels (when Jesus ascends to heaven) to the first part of Acts (with the outpouring of the Holy Ghost) and its still being poured out.

Music4Him

 

BTW, I read Revelation and came out with a post-trib ending. I feel we're here for the long haul.

 

I'm amazed that you're amazed, as these aren't intimate details that nobody else knows but are open to investigation. The Early Church was by nature conservative, often not formulating doctrines more precisely unless in response to specific heresies. (The Church, for instance, has always taught that Christ is both God and Man, although this belief became more precisely defined with time in response to heretics such as the Docetists, Arians, Nestorians, Apollinarians, and the Eutychians.) In the case of eschatology we have no documentation of anyone (including those considered heretics) teaching a pre-trib rapture. Those who wrote about the Second Coming were unanimous in teaching that the Church would go through the Tribulation, be persecuted by the AntiChrist, and then be rescued (and gathered) at the Second Coming. Although certain ones acknowledged when other Christians had divergent beliefs regarding the Millenium (Justin Martyr held to a literal Millenium but wrote there were other pious orthodox Christians that did not), there is utter silence regarding any notion of an alleged evacuation of the Church before the Antichrist. Such a notion wasn't even acknowledged even if only to condemn it (which is what the Church did when it was confronted with heresy).

Perhaps you could at least provide some positive evidence that someone in the first 1800 years of Christendom taught a pre-trib rapture. Short of that, you are arguing from silence (other than begging the question in your scriptural interpretations).

On the contrary, I "defeated" them by reading the language of the passages in its normal sense. Read in this straight forward manner, the passages in question nowhere hint of a pre-trib rapture occurring seven years before the second coming. Short of finding some positive affirmation of the "pre-trib" rapture clearly stated in Scripture, one has no warrant twisting the text to suit his purposes regardless of what clever definition he might give to the word "and" in those verses.

Ed, it's been fun, but at this point I think I'm going to bow out of this discussion as it appears to be rather fruitless. Hopefully, someone will read this discussion and come to the conclusion so concisely stated by Music4him that "We're here for the long haul".

 

Do you see
the "first" in Revelation 2:5 meaning
ONE AND ONLY ONE RESURRECTION?

Doubting Thomas: "In the case of eschatology we have no
documentation of anyone (including those considered
heretics) teaching a pre-trib rapture."

I see the papists have taught you well, Ohbi Wan.
Remember, the winners write the history books.

Did you know the Nestorian Bishop Alopen of Syria
reached the Chineese capital in 635AD? The Nestorian
faith was taught in China 635-845AD, after 845aD it was
suppressed a few years. The Nestorian expansion across Aisa
reached a heigth in 1349AD with 25 metropolitians
(each with 6-12 suffragan bishops) in 250 diocesses
in China, India, Kashgar, Samarkand, Terkestan, etc.
with a total of 15 Million Christians.
Of course, the Bishop of Rome has suppressed all the
teachings of the East Syrian Church and it's 25
metropolitians, relegating all their
teachings to "heresy".
The Islamic killers, lackies of
the Metropolitian of Rome, destroyed
that heresy, eh? What did a 14th century Christian
citizen of Samarkand thing about eschatology?
I know what happened. They had tribulatin and Jesus
didn't come at the end, they died in tribulation.
Well, the time is coming when these people of Christ
will be raised from the dead and receive the end of their
Salvation (sure from the day
they were saved) -- this
will happen before the Tribulation Period (Wrath of God)
Judgements).

 

I accept your concession, Brother
Doubting Thomas. You still haven't been
exposed to but about 10% of my arguments
concerning the Pretribulation rapture/resurrection
and the premillinnial, double-barrelled
Second Coming of Jesus.
I still don't know wheter or not you
know the first thing about "first"
(see Revealation 20:5).

 

That's right, conspiracy theorists of the world unite! When one can't point to evidence to support one's case from history, blame it on the pope eliminating all traces of it! That's okay--you're not the first to offer such an ahistorical appeal. The "Baptist (or fill-in-the-blank other radical reformist group) successionists" make the same claim--not to mention the Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. The ironic thing is that I'm not even a "Papist"--there is plenty of historical and patristic evidence to reject the innovations of papism. (Too bad the pope, with all his power to eliminate traces of all Bible-believing pre-tribulationists, couldn't suppress the evidence that argues against his innovative and heretical pretentions ) Likewise, there is more than adequate biblical, patristic, historical evidence to reject the pre-trib rapture fantasy.

(BTW--I am aware of the expansion of the Ancient Churches of the East. Whether one can call them "Nestorian" or not is another ball of wax altogether...)

 

Uh oh, I'm glad I quit when I did...

...Seriously, if the other "90%" is anything like the 10% of your arguments I have been "exposed to", then I wouldn't have had anything to worry about.
(I'm quite certain, though, I've read many of your other arguments in the numerous other times you've posted on this topic on the baptist board )

 

The onus of responsibility is on you who believe that all the events of the Book of Revelation are in the distant past.

No secular, Greek, Jewish or Christian historian speaks of these events being in our Christian past.

We who believe in the truth-the pre-Trib and pre-Millennial rapture of the church hold a ready pen to have you explain it to we confused saints. Let's hear it!

II Thessalonians 2:1-4 clearly points to Christ coming for His church/the Lord's people before the onset of the Great Tribulation.

Neither was the Apostle Paul unclear about Christ coming only for Christians in his passage in I Thessalonians 4:16. Only the 'dead in Christ' will rise out of their graves; the term 'in Christ' offers the clearest and most definitive truth as to who will rise, out of the cemeteries around the world. Saints only!

You do not have to be a rocket scientist when you read the Apostle John's truth from the Lord that Jesus will do business with all of the lost souls at one time at the end of this age. And by this I mean after the 1,000 year Millennial reign of Christ on the earth, Jesus will resurrect all sinners from their graves even to the isles of the seas. [Revelation 20:5] That is why Almighty God speaking through John the Revelator said,

'But the rest of the dead . . . . {all others than those who have died 'in Christ' or are alive as Christians when He comes for His church/rapture} . . . . did not come back to physical life until the thousand years were ended.' [vs. 5]

 

Amen, Brother Ray -- Preach it!

Thessalonian: "Isn't it odd that before the deformation (reformation)
there was the Catholic Church, the Orthodox (which split
off from the Catholic Church in about 1350) and an odd
come and go sect or three for 1500 years?"

Actually that is revisionist history.

In the year 1001 there were numerous pilgrimages to the
Holy Land from Europe, Africa, and India to
celbrate the start of the second Millinnium.
That year the largest Christian Church was the
East Syrian (Nestorian).
This church, the Catholic Apostolic Church of the East,
had over 250 dioceses across Asia and
12 million adhernets. More saints were commanded by this
chruch than the Bishop of Rome (Pope, the Roman
Catholic CHurch or the
Bishop of Conistanople/Patriarch of Antioch (Orthodox
Catholic Apostolic Church, AKA: Easter Orthodox). By 1051 the
Patriarch of Antioch and the Bishop of Rome excommunicated
the bishops, priests, and members each of the group.

During the next 200 years the Catholic Apostolic Church
of the East was crushed between the Mongols of the
East and the Muslim from the Southwest.

Needless to say, it is NOT in the best interests of
the Papists to have that information be of general knowledge.

NESTORIANS:
(source of the following is this page:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05230a.htm )

. Nestorians

The Nestorians are now only a pitiful remnant of what was once a great Church. Long before the heresy from which they have their name, there was a flourishing Christian community in Chaldea and Mesopotamia. According to their tradition it was founded by Addai and Mari (Addeus and Maris), two of the seventy-two Disciples. The present Nestorians count Mar Mari as the first Bishop of Ctesiphon and predecessor of their patriarch. In any case this community was originally subject to the Patriarch of Antioch. As his vicar, the metropolitan of the twin-cities of Seleucia and Ctesiphon (on either side of the Tigris, north-east of Babylon) bore the title of catholicos. One of these metropolitans was present at the Council of Nicaea in 325. The great distance of this Church from Antioch led in early times to a state of semi-independence that prepared the way for the later schism. Already in the fourth century the Patriarch of Antioch waived his right of ordaining the catholicos of Seleucia-Ctesiphon, and allowed him to be ordained by his own suffragans. In view of the great importance of the right of ordaining, as a sign of jurisdiction throughout the East, this fact is important. But it does not seem that real independence of Antioch was acknowledged or even claimed till after the schism. In the fifth century the influence of the famous Theodore of Mopsuestia and that of his school of Edessa spread the heresy of Nestorius throughout this extreme Eastern Church. Naturally, the later Nestorians deny that their fathers accepted any new doctrine at that time, and they claim that Nestorius learned from them rather than they from him ("Nestorius eos secutus est, non ipsi Nestorium", Ebed-Jesu of Nisibis, about 1300. Assemani, "Bibli. Orient.", III, 1, 355). There may be truth in this. Theodore and his school had certainly prepared the way for Nestorius. In any case the rejection of the Council of Ephesus (431) by these Christians in Chaldea and Mesopotamia produced a schism between them and the rest of Christendom. When Babaeus, himself a Nestorian, became catholicos, in 498, there were practically no more Catholics in those parts. From Ctesiphon the Faith had spread across the frontier into Persia, even before that city was conquered bythe Persian king (244). The Persian Church, then, always depended on Ctesiphon and shared its heresy. From the fifth century this most remote of the Eastern Churches has been cut off from the rest of Christendom, and till modern times was the most separate and forgotten community of all. Shut out from the Roman Empire (Zeno closed the school of Edessa in 489), but, for a time at least, protected by the Persian kings, the Nestorian Church flourished around Ctesiphon, Nisibis (where the school was reorganized), and throughout Persia. Since the schism the catholicos occasionally assumed the title of patriarch. The Church then spread towards the East and sent missionaries to India and even China. A Nestorian inscription of the year 781 has been found at Singan Fu in China (J. Heller, S.J., "Prolegomena zu einer neuen Ausgabe der nestorianischen Inschrift von Singan Fu", in the "Verhandlungen des VII. internationalen Orientalistencongresses", Vienna, 1886, pp. 37 sp.). Its greatest extent was in the eleventh century, when twenty-five metropolitans obeyed the Nestorian patriarch. But since the end of the fourteenth century it has gradually sunk to a very small sect, first, because of a fierce persecution by the Mongols (Timur Leng), and then through internal disputes and schisms. Two great schisms as to the patriarchal succession in the sixteenth century led to a reunion of part of the Nestorian Church with Rome, forming the Catholic Chaldean Church. At present there are about 150,000 Nestorians living chiefly in highlands west of Lake Urumiah. They speak a modern dialect of Syriac. The patriarchate descends from uncle to nephew, or to younger brothers, in the family of Mama; each patriarch bears the name Simon (Mar Shimun) as a title. Ignoring the Second General Council, and of course strongly opposed to the Third (Ephesus), they only acknowledge the First Nicene (325). They have a Creed of their own, formed from an old Antiochene Creed, which does not contain any trace of the particular heresy from which their Church is named. In deed it is difficult to say how far any Nestorians now are conscious of the particular teaching condemned by the Council of Ephesus, though they still honour Nestorius, Theodore of Mopsuestia, and other undoubted heretics as saints and doctors. The patriarch rules over twelve other bishops (the list in Silbernagl, "Verfassung", p. 267). Their hierarchy consists of the patriarch, metropolitans, bishops, chorepiscopi, archdeacons, priests, deacons, subdeacons, and readers. There are also many monasteries. They use Syriac liturgically written in their own (Nestorian) form of the alphabet. The patriarch, who now generally calls himself "Patriarch of the East", resides at Kochanes, a remote valley of the Kurdish mountains by the Zab, on the frontier between Persia and Turkey. He has an undefined political jurisdiction over his people, though he does not receive a berat from the Sultan. In any ways this most remote Church stands alone; it has kept a number of curious and archaic customs (such as the perpetual abstinence of the patriarch, etc.) that separate it from other Eastern Churches almost as much as from those of the West. Lately the Archbishop of Canterbury's mission to the Nestorians has aroused a certain interest about them in England.

 

1Th. 4.14-18 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.

This is clearly the 2nd Coming of Christ, NOT a 'secret' rapture! (There is no support for any kind of 'rapture' -as defined by the premillenialists- nor is there any kind of support for a so-called 'millenial 1000 year kingdom'. When Christ returns, that's IT. And, BTW, we have been in the 'great tribulation/great ordeal' since 33 A.D.

 

Jude,

You said, '1Th. 4.14-18 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe
that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According
to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left
till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen
asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud
command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God,
and the dead in Christ will rise first.'

You are correct to this point, brother Jude. But, keep in mind there is a reason why God brings from Heaven and with Him, those who were already in Heaven. Christ comes to retrieve the bodies/earthly remain of those who have fallen 'asleep-in Christ' from centuries ago. He mentions absolutely nothing about raising the sinful dead remains of His created beings, until we read and find the answer in Revelation 20:5a which God says will be after the earthly Millenium at the end of time on this earth, which is more logical. Neither does God say in I Thessalonians 4:14-18 that our Lord will take living, vile sinners up to Heaven at this moment in time to be judged by Him. Remember, nothing sinful will enter into Heaven, says the Bible, otherwise we would have the same mess up at His throne in Heaven. Some of you good men, forget that in the Thessalonian epistles God through Paul is writing to the faithful; He is angry with the wicked/sinners every day. In Proverbs 21:4 reminds us that even ' . . . the plowing {the soil of His earth} by the wicked is sin' to His most holy Being.

You continued to say, 'After that, we who are still alive and are
left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in
the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each
other with these words.'

Again, you are correct as you quote the Scripture.

You continue to say, 'This is clearly the 2nd Coming of Christ, NOT a 'secret' rapture!'

Ray is saying, 'We who believe that Christ will take His church home to Heaven in the future, also believe with you that there will be nothing secret about multiple millions of Christians disappearing from the earth. But, the world system will continue as it moves into the time of the revealing of the antichrist and providentially the Lord will begin His judgments as declared in the Book of Revelation. {Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments}

You continue your diatribe by saying, 'There is no support for any kind of 'rapture' -as defined by the premillenialists- nor is there any kind of support for a so-called 'millenial 1000 year kingdom'.'

Here again you walk hand in hand with Roman Catholicism. I explained the truth of the rapture/the removing the saints from the earth above. The Lord repeats for people like you six times in seven verses that His earthly Millennial reign [Revelation 20:1-7] is as real as the beard on your face. By the way, it looks good on you.'

You also said, 'When Christ returns, that's IT.'

No, when Christ comes for His church {no sinners included} there is over one thousand years in the future not including the seven years of Great Tribulation, or the releasing of Satan for 'a little season of time.' [Rev. 20:3f]

You said, 'And, BTW, we have been in the 'great tribulation/great ordeal' since 33 A.D.'

Ray is saying, 'No we are the salt of the earth, His remnant/God's people and in places in our world where freedom and democracy is enjoyed we are not suffering from want. Many Christians are enjoying the good life, going to church once on Sunday while living and making money. This is not the Great Tribulation.

If you read the Bible carefully those being beheaded [Rev. 13:15c & 20:4d] will come from every nation [Rev. 7:9f] in this world.

Since 33 A.D. until now we are experiencing the church age/the age of grace as differing from the Law and the prophets. No historian has validated that any of the events of Seal, Trumpet or Vial judgments from God have occurred. And neither has any historian revealed through documentation the coming of Christ for His church, the Great Tribulation, the Battle of Armageddon [Rev. 16:16] the building of the Great Tribulation Temple, [II Thess. 2:4] nor the battle for Jerusalem as mentioned in Revelation 20:9] the judgment of the lost [Revelation 20:11-15] And notice no saints are said to have entered Heaven after this Great White Throne Judgment; only the lost will be 'cast into the Lake of fire.' [Rev. 20:14-15] Neither have we viewed the 'new Heaven and the new Earth. [Rev. 21:1]

Catholicism has left a sweat taste in the mouths of many Protestants and non-Catholics who simply swallow this poorly thought out quasi-eschatology. They have blindly followed the teaching of apostate quasi-Christianity.

Count up the long list of events that I have pointed to and you will see that some of you have missed the whole point and purpose of the Book of Revelation and that is to open our eyes as to what we need to avoid. {Great Tribulation-for example} No sinner needs to be left on this cosmos to suffer the future unprecedented 'mark of the beast' or need they become one of the beheaded, martyred persons. The Apostle Paul marks out more than clearly the blessed hope for those who love Jesus.

There are none of these words found in I Thessalonians chapter four. {sinner, lost ones, wicked, backsliders} The reason for the obvious neglect of these persons is because Christ is writing to His beloved church and adds these comforting words to His people, 'Wherefore comfort one another with these words.' [vs. 18]

Now be fair to all of us and point out where we are in error in the understanding of Almighty God's Divine truth for His people. Perhaps you can tell us that the martyred/beheaded saints are not real people and that the mark of the beast is only symbolic and happened centuries long ago, though undocumented in all of secular and religious history.

 

Trumpets and Vials, no. But the Seals, especially if you compare Christ's Olivet Parallel of these seven things, have been occurring. They are the revelation of world conditions, not singular events.