Trib begins

[BobRyan]

Neither John 14 nor 1Thess 4 mention that these happen before the tribulation. Making that up as if they did specify that point - does nothing to establish a pre-trip rapture.

In Matt 24 we see only ONE coming of Christ (never called the 2nd coming - but called the coming of Christ, the appearing of Christ, the return of Christ).

John tells us of THE FIRST general/global resurrection in mankind's future - impossible to miss in Rev 19 and 20 showing a lot of detail for that sequence and the FIRST resurrection.

The NT authors are all in full agreement - focused on that singular second-coming FIRST resurrection event. AS pointed it - it IS the focus of the NT church - as highlighted by the NT authors pointing to it.

Matt 24 - great tribulation -
Rev 12 - Great Tribulation

2Thess 2 - Great false wonders
Rev 16 - 7 last plagues

Matt 24 - the appearing of Christ
2Thess 2 - the "Appearing" of Christ 2Thess 2:1-2
Rev 19 - the Appearing of Christ,
John 14 - the "return of Christ" - "He Comes again"
1Peter 1:13 - the Glorious revelation of Christ - the ONE focus of the Church
2Peter 1:16 - the ONE return event pre millenium
Rev 1 - Every eye shall see Him

Rev 20 - the "First Resurrection" - that of the Holy and Blessed.
1Thess 4 - the singular event focused on - the general resurrection - that of the saints - the "dead in Christ" those who have "fallen asleep"
1Cor 15 - the redemption of the Body - "we shall ALL be changed" in a moment at that singular event
Romans 8 - the groaning longing waited singular event - the redemption of the body
John 5 - the first of two resurrections - one of the just and one of the unjust

John 14 - Christ takes all the risen and raptured saints to heaven - to be "with Christ".
1Thess 4 -- caught up in the air -- to "Be With Christ".

Rev 20 - followed by 1000 years and the resurrection of "the rest of the dead".
Rev 20 - 2nd res after the 1000 years - the people of THAT resurrection (the 2nd one) judged and placed in the lake of fire

Those who seek to find "many general resurrections before the FIRST one that is in our future" - have nothing to base it on.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

John 17 - Christ asks that we be kept "from the evil one" but not by "being taken out of the world". God is able to "keep His saints" while they are in the world.

But IF God's saints of that first generation NT age were "expecting to be spared tribulation" then they had about 1260 years of "dissappointing torture, torment and slaughter" in their future.

Christ said "IN this world you HAVE tribulation but take courage I have overcome the world".

Tribulation free existence was never the promise of the Gospel.

Christ said "the time will come when they who kill you will think they are doing service to God"

And of course - there is no "seven year day of the Lord" mentioned in all of scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Tribulation free existence was never the promise of the Gospel.

Exactly so, Brother Bob -- Preach it!

Ever have your wife's Doctor's secretary
call you for an apointment? That was
a death sentence. Six months later my
first wife was dead. Hello, i know
tribulation. To be exactly precise
i've started calling the 7-year Day of the
Lord, the Tribulation Period Wrath Judgements.

Here is an older writing before i
used "Tribulation Period Wrath Judgements":

--------------------------------
The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: "2Peter 1:16 - the ONE return event pre millenium"

2 Peter 1:16 (HCSB=The Holman Christian Standard Bible)

For we did not follow cleverly contrived myths when
we made known to you the power and coming of our
Lord Jesus Christ; instead, we were eyewitnesses
of His majesty.

Nothing in my Bible HERE about One and only one return event.
Nothing in my Bible HERE about pre millenium.
Of course, you can find pre-millenium return
of Jesus in the Bible.
And if you contrive closely you can find one
return event at a time.

OTOH, if you ever PROVE BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT
that Jesus's Second coming is a unique one day event
-- I'll be there with my dictionary.
I did note that my dictionary (and every one i've ever seen)
fails to mentione the 48-hour day. The 48-hour day
is the time a specific date /like 21 June 2004, for example/
lasts at all points on the Earth. At any one
point a specific date only lasts 24-hours, but at all
points on the earth, a day lasts 48-hours.
Anyway, that is a side trip.
The most common meaning of "day" in the prophetic
readings of the Bible is "appropriate time".
The most common meaning of "hour" in the prophetic
readings of the Bible is "appropriate time".
So in God's economy where 1 day = 1,000 years,
One day = one hour!

Reminds me of a joke.
Person: Say God, to you 1,000 years is like 1 day.
God: YES
Person: And, Sir, to you 1 day is like 1 hour.
God: YES
Person: so one million years to me is but a minute
to you.
God: YES
Person: An likewise with money:
A million dollars to me is but one of your pennies.
God: YES
Person: Will you let me have one of your pennies?
God: YES, It will be right with you, in a minute.

 

[Dan Todd]

Ed - you do have a way with words!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Thank You Pastor Dan, the teen Sunday School Class teacher.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

This is a question about the tribulation. Popular teaching is that it will be seven years long. And that the Rapture will be first and then the trib begins.

I do not want this to be about when the rapture occurs, but what happens after that to the people who are left.

As most people on the board are probably pre-trib, I will phrase the question like this:

After the rapture occurs, what can be expected by the people who are left here. Scripture is welcome, but please give what YOU think it will be like. What will the next 7 years hold for the unbelievers left here?

As in, famine, earthquakes etc.???

Working for Jesus,
Tam,

Sorry to steal your
thread with all this rapture timing stuff.

This site:

click here --> Prophecy in the News <-- click here

says somewhere that maybe the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection will be under the
guise of an all-out nuclear attack.
I guess that would explain the destruction
of Damascus rather well.
Of course, it would make it easier for
the Antichrist to explain, twas just
a thermonuclear attack and everybody
who died is dead.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
[QB] BobRyan: "2Peter 1:16 - the ONE return event pre millenium"

2 Peter 1:16 (HCSB=The Holman Christian Standard Bible)

For we did not follow cleverly contrived myths when
we made known to you the power and coming of our
Lord Jesus Christ; instead, we were eyewitnesses
of His majesty.

Nothing in my Bible HERE about One and only one return event.

You are correct - that was the fault of my own sloppy reference. I offer the correct reference below.

1 Peter 1
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things into which angels long to look.
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

It is clear that that this is one singular event - and one singular focus of the church on future events. It is THE event Paul is focused on in 1Thess 4 (Comfort one another with these words).... It is THE event (redemption of the body) for which Paul says Christians and all nature groans in Romans 8... It is THE event highlighted in Rev 19 and 20 and at which we find the FIRST general resurrection future to John's day.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Ed said --
OTOH, if you ever PROVE BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT
that Jesus's Second coming is a unique one day event
-- I'll be there with my dictionary.

The point of the one singular future event is that Christ returns (as we see in Rev 19) - raises the dead in Christ (as we see in Rev 20 and 1Thess 4 and in Romans 8, and in 1Cor 15) - raptures the living saints as we see in Rev 20)
and this has not ever happened before NOR will that sequence ever happen again.

It is the singular *unique* event in the future - the ONE event that Peter points us to as do the other NT writers.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

And it is simply not true. The first clue is that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 START around 450 BC - and they point to the coming of the Messiah (in fact the Baptism of Christ - the annointed one in 27 AD) it is 70 weeks of years (a contiguous 490 year timeline from 456 right through to the death of Christ and the end of the Jewish dispensation. The transition to the Christian Church).

Your blurb above - calls for something not done in all of scripture - it calls for inserting gaps of undefined time into TIMELINEs - such as the 70 weeks (490 years 70x7) of Daniel 9.

There is simply no way to preserve a timeline by inserting gaps of undefined time into the middle of it - which explains why no prophetic timeline does that. Even the start of Daniel 9 showing the 70 years of Jeremiah - holds us consistently to a tineline (70 years) with no undefined gaps of time inserted.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
Tribulation free existence was never the promise of the Gospel.

Exactly so, Brother Bob -- Preach it!

Ever have your wife's Doctor's secretary
call you for an apointment? That was
a death sentence. Six months later my
first wife was dead. Hello, i know
tribulation. To be exactly precise
i've started calling the 7-year Day of the
Lord, the Tribulation Period Wrath Judgements.

</font>[/QUOTE]Ed - sorry to hear about your wife's passing. I lost my Father rather suddenly a few years ago and I can not imagine that happening to my wife.

It is good to be a Christian so that in our suffering we do not have to suffer as do those who have no hope.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Dan Todd:
Ed - good post - but I'm sure our post-trib "friends" will have something to say.

Keep up the good work!

Just to clarify. I have come across other churches that teach a post trib pre-millenial rapture but they have a hard time also including the John 14 promise.

The particular view that my church holds to - accepts both.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: "There is simply no way to preserve a timeline by inserting gaps of undefined time into the middle of it - which explains why no prophetic timeline does that.."

You feel free to bleat this like a sheep.

Romans 11:25-26a (HCSB):

So that you will not be conceited, brothers,
I do not want you to be unaware of this secret:
a partial hardening has come to Israel until the
full number of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, ...

The KJV says "mystery" instead of secret.
A mystery is a plan of God unknown in the Old
Testement days but described in the New Testament.
Such is the Mystery of Israel's blindness
producing the Church Age (Age of Gentiles), the
pause between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel.

Please don't dispise this pause of Daniel's timeline.
Unless you are a Jew, this pause was necessary for
YOUR SALVATION. Please don't dispise your chance
for salvation by repeating your mindless saying
like a bleating sheep. Thank you.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
It is good to be a Christian so that in our suffering we do not have to suffer as do those who have no hope.

Amen, Brother Bob -- Preach it!

I hope that Jesus comes to get be before
the tribulation period wrath judgements,
not wait until after.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan: "There is simply no way to preserve a timeline by inserting gaps of undefined time into the middle of it - which explains why no prophetic timeline does that.."

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:


You feel free to bleat this like a sheep.

Romans 11:25-26a (HCSB):

Indeed - it is a fact that does not "change" simply because you do not like it.

To counter the point you would actually have to come up with a numbered timeline with undefined gaps inserted - and there are none.

I have you the example of the Daniel 9 70 years of Jeremiah - and you can not deny that the 70 year timeline is contiguous - no undefined gaps of time possible just as in the case of the 70weeks of Daniel 9.

The "obvious reason" you can't insert gaps of undefined time into these quantified timelines is that the NUMBER assigned would be worthless.

(Obviously).

So we find that you gave no example of a numbered timeline that DOES work EVEN with undefined gaps inserted. Period.

What you do "instead" is try to find a string of events that are NOT confined to a numbered timeline and then "suppose" that if a string of events CAN include gaps when not confined to a numbered timeline - THEN so might a numbered timeline.

Obviously that is false.

But you seem to enjoy equivocating on that in response to this obvious statement about numbered timelines.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Why not actually respond to the argument that numbered timelines never have gaps - show some that do have undefined gaps - or simply admit to the point?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Why not actually respond to the argument that numbered timelines never have gaps - show some that do have undefined gaps - or simply admit to the point?

I demolished your arguments.
and that is obvious to other participants.
The failure of the Jews of the time of
Jesus to accept Him as their Messiah puts
an unnumbered gap in between the 69th week
of Daniel and the 70th week of Daniel.

I repeat the Doctrine of the Soverignty of God:
God can do what God wants to do, when God wants
to do it, how God wants to do it, which
whom God wants to do it, where God wants to do it,
toward what ever purposes God might have.

Please don't tell God He can't change His
timelines. At least be thankful He told us
how He was going to change them.

Matthew 25:13 (HCSB):

"Therefore be alert, because
you don't know either
the day or the hour.

 

[BobRyan]

You are arguing outside the bounds of sound exegesis. When challenged to show Biblical support for your indefensible assumption that numbered timelines can not work if infested with undefined gaps of time - you come up with "not one".

Your argument is "others whose bias needs Ed's assumptions -- agree with Ed". That is a form of exegesis I am not familiar with. You follow that with another argument "God can do anything so just because it does not make sense and we have no basis for this in other timelines of scripture (exegesis) - we can still speculate that God is doing it in Daniel 9 with the 70 weeks". Again - another form of exegesis I am not familiar with.

You claim that the "challenge" to SHOW clear examples of numbered timelines having undefined gaps of time inserted - (to exegetically support your doing the same thing in Daniel 9) is met by your speculative statement that the 69th week ends with the Baptism of Christ and clearly at Christ's baptism - the Jewish time is up.

But in fact as Hebrews 10 states - Christ put a stop to sacrifices and offerings at His death - just as we see happening in the MIDDLE of the 70th week of Daniel - which is 3.5 years AFTER the annointing - 3.5 years AFTER the Baptism of the Messiah we see the Heb 10 event where He puts a stop to sacrifices and offerings.

Not surprisingly - the numbered timeline IS one contiguous reliable predictable timeline. If you know the start you know the exact date of the end Of a numbered timeline. (Obviously).

Since the time for Israel is NOT up after the cross Christ directs the disciples to Go to Jerusalem and Israel first. It is only after the stoning of Stephen a few years AFTER the ascension of Christ that we see the work going to the Gentiles.

The single contiguous nature of numbered timelines is what it is - no matter how desperately your tradition may "need" to find an exception and cling to it as if that made sense.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Thank you Brother Jude for quoting 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18
for us. I wish you had quoted 1 Thessalonaisn 5:1-11
for it specifies the pretribulation rapture.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:11 is one discussion about one
matter and belongs together.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (HCSB):

Since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same way God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by a revelation from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord's coming will certainly have no advantage over those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel's voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 (HCSB):

About the times and the seasons: brothers, you do not need anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that the Day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 When they say, "Peace and security," then sudden destruction comes on them, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. 4 But you, brothers, are not in the dark, so that this day would overtake you like a thief. 5 For you are all sons of light and sons of the day. We're not of the night or of darkness.
6 So then, we must not sleep, like the rest, but we must stay awake and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, we must be sober and put the armor of faith and love on our chests, and put on a helmet of the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up as you are already doing.


We must stay awake and sober because "the Day of the Lord"
(sudden destricution) comes on them.
That is what it says.

I note many people want for 1 Thess 5:9 to say:
"For God did not appoint us to God'swrath, ..."
But it does NOT say "God's wrath",
it says just "wrath".

A side note for the post-trib rapture pre-mill coming
folk: note that the a-mill stance can lead to a post-trib
rapture (most a-mills make the Second Coming of Jesus
a mystical experience, Jesus comes again to get you when
you die).
By contrast, a pretribulation rapture can only come from
a pre-millinnial Second Coming of Jesus stance.
Many paths to error, one path to Truth.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
You are arguing outside the bounds of sound exegesis.

Jesus says in Matthew 7:1-2 (HCSB):

"Do not judge, so that you won't be judged. 2 For with the judgment you use, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Have a nice day, i need to go to work,
and make some money to fullfill my obligations
and ministries.