Tribulation Saints

[standingfirminChrist]

MexDeafTrib,

yer very confusing.

First, the continents are

Africa
Australia
Europe
Asia
South America
North America
Antarctica

(Greenland is not a continent)

Second, you contradict yourself in several places in your theory of who it is that letteth. One major contradiction is you say from the beginning that it is satan who is the one who letteth, that satan is holding himself back. Then you say that 'Christ is holding him back; with reference to Revelation 20:1-3.

Satan cannot be the one holding himself back, for the scripture plainly tell us:

2 Thessalonians 2:6-8 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

These verses here plainly show it cannot be satan who is the one who 'letteth.' After he that letteth is taken out of the way, then shall the wicked one be revealed.

The wicked one will not be revealed until he who letteth is taken out of the way.

Then a short time later he will be destroyed by the Lord in the second coming. How do I know he will be destroyed sometime after he is revealed? That word 'shall' in verse 8 is a future tense word.

You also say in your thesis that satan is in the bottomless pit now. If indeed that were true, then that would be another proof that he cannot be the one who letteth. If he were in the pit now, he is not restraining himself, for he does not have the possession of the key to the pit. In Revelation we see an angel with the key to the pit.

Satan is restrained in 2 Thessalonians, but not by himself. He is restrained by the Holy Spirit which is God's active force in the world today.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

DeafPostTrib,

Show me a scripture where the Bible says the church is Israel please.

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Let's put the church in place of Israel in that verse...

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Church is, that they might be saved.

Does not make sense, does it?

The body of Christ is the Church... If Israel is the Church, the the church is not saved.

The church and Israel are two different entities.

(my previous post should be addressed to DeafPostTrib also... sorry)

 

[Mel Miller]

npetreley,

Your analysis is always good. But I tend to
shy away from the idea that Michael is the
restrainer. Here is your closing remark:
_______________________________________________
So if it's Israel-centered, then all the more reason to think the restrainer is Michael, since Michael's job is to protect Israel. Take Michael out of the way, and Israel loses its protection, and the man of sin is free to do with Israel as he wishes.
_______________________________________________

Michael is still concerned with his people,
Israel, because he knows they are about to
be redeemed and their kingdom is near. Luke 21:
28,31. He also knows 144,000 special firstfruit
unto God and the Lamb must be protected as the
Two Prophets "demonstrate God's Kingdom Power"!

Their task is not separate from that of Michael; but for the 42 months during which "no one can kill these Two until their assignment is finished", Michael knows "many will be purged or purified and refined" in preparation for God's mercy ... not only to Israel; but to "all mankind". Rev.14:1-5; Rev.11:3-7; Rev.12:10-14; Dan.12:10-11.

While the Church will "love not their life unto
death" during this time of preparation, Israel
will continue to be "blinded" to God's purpose
until "they see and bless the One coming in the
name of the Lord".

The Endtime is strictly for the preparation of
the Church as the Body of Christ and of Israel
as the eternal "people of God on the earth"
so that saved Jews & Gentiles may be worthy of Christ our Savior and the Jews as a restord
people will be worthy of Messiah their King.

God works with the Church and Israel at the
same time by using the enmity of Satan to
winnow the chaff out of God's people ... not
only the Bride of Christ but the restored
people of Israel who will become the channel
of blessing to all mankind as never before.

The promise made to Abraham not only includes
his direct descendants thru Isaac and Ishmael
but also includes "all nations" during the
Millennium ... a truth we have not yet grasped.
Joel 2:11-14; Rom.11:30-33.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[webdog]

Well, the idea that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, and that it is taken out of the way by the rapture is no doubt a very feel-good theology promoted by feel-good theologians.

And why can't it also be "feel good" while remaining TRUE? Is it only truth if we are made to go through the great tribulation and suffer God's and the antichrist's wrath?

1Th 5:11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up as you are already doing.

Sounds pretty "feel good" to me, espceially in light of...

1Th 5:1 About the times and the seasons: brothers, you do not need anything to be written to you.

 

[Mel Miller]

webdog,

Quote:
_______________________________________________
And why can't it also be "feel good" while remaining TRUE? Is it only truth if we are made to go through the great tribulation and suffer God's and the antichrist's wrath?
_______________________________________________

The "feel good" comes with knowing that "no
believer is appointed to God's wrath"!!!!! And
no wrath is announced from heaven as having come
until the 7th Trumpet sounds ... the Last Trump
sounds on the last day to "raise up every/all
believers because that is the Father's will". John 6:38-40,44,54. Believe it and "feel good".

The countdown of Chronos-Time ends up to 3 1/2
days before the 7th Trump Sounds that the time
appointed (kairos-time) for Resurrection and
Rapture and Rewards and to "destroy earth's
destroyers because God's wrath has come" !!
Rev.11:18.

Jesus "brings his rewards with Him for every
believer only when He comes with the angels in great glory and power". Matt.16:27; Rev.22:12.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:
Well, the idea that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer, and that it is taken out of the way by the rapture is no doubt a very feel-good theology promoted by feel-good theologians. It's always nice to think that, because the Holy Spirit lives in us, we're the ones who are holding back evil by our very presence. Of course, one quick look around us should tell you that we're not doing a very good job. But there's no point in tossing any reality into that theory.

There are countless Biblical problems with the idea that the rapture removes those with the Holy Spirit, which makes Him the restrainer. First, it happens at the wrong time. So you have to rearrange the series of events in order to make that theory stick, which is why the pre-trib rapture is so convoluted and only works if you change a ton of scripture into allegory.

Oh, it works just find, providing you understand the "TRINTY" and how to "RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD",

1. Father/God/Holy Spirit
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,


2. Son/Jesus/Holy GHOST (of Jesus)
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

The "SON" (comforter) didn't speak in the OT, and neither will it during the trib.

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

So long as the "comforter" in present, "Power" is on the side of the people.

Mt 16:18 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

1Jo 4:4 because greater is "HE" that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Once the "Comforter" is gone, "power" is on the side of the oppressor.

2Th 2:7 only "HE" who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Da 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
DeafPostTrib,

Show me a scripture where the Bible says the church is Israel please.

I'll answer this one...

Galatians 6:15-16 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. 16Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God.

The term "Israel of God" here refers to the church.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Calvibaptist,

That is speaking of the saved Jews in Israel. They are part of the church, but they are not the church.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Calvibaptist,

That is speaking of the saved Jews in Israel. They are part of the church, but they are not the church.

Can you prove this? Or does it just fit your dispensationalism?

What about this verse?

Romans 4:11-12 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

Here, Abraham is the father of circumcision to all those who are of the faith that he had. If Abraham is the father of both Jewish and Gentile believers in the church, that would make us Israelites (spiritually).

Or what about this?

Galatians 3:7-9 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

According to this, all those who are of faith (Jews and Gentiles) are sons of Abraham (Israelites). We are blessed with believing Abraham, meaning that we are brought into the Abrahamic covenant.

Or what about this?

Romans 11:17-18 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches.

The Olive tree is Israel. The branches that were broken off were unbelieving (physical) Israelites. The branches that were grafted in were believing (physical) Gentiles, that you would call the church. Therefore, the church is now Israel.

I'm sorry, but the Bible does not support the relatively new concept of a complete separation between Israel and the Church. There is one people of God - those who are of the faith of Abraham. The purpose of God has always been to redeem a people. Those people are not tied to a land just like God is not tied to a building called a temple. God's kingdom has always been a spiritual kingdom and God's people have always been a spiritual people.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I have already proved it through just one verse. That is enough evidence to show that Israel is not and cannot be the true church of God.

I will post it again...

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Let's put the church in place of Israel in that verse...

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Church is, that they might be saved.

It does not fit.

Now, if the above verse cannot be the Church, then the verses you brought up are not the church either.

 

[Me4Him]

CalviBaptist

Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Because of God's promise to Abraham/Israel, the "physical nation" of Israel, (i.e Jews) can be "enemies of the gospel" and still be "Elect", God isn't finished with them as he would be with a "Gentile Nation" who was his "enemy".

The "church" is chosen from among "all nations", "whosoever will", while the promises to Israel are restricted to the "physical nation" of Jews.

That's not to say the Gentiles don't enjoy the same benefits, but the physical nation of Israel is "sit aside" as "special people", by God.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
I have already proved it through just one verse. That is enough evidence to show that Israel is not and cannot be the true church of God.

I will post it again...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Let's put the church in place of Israel in that verse...

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Church is, that they might be saved.

It does not fit.

Now, if the above verse cannot be the Church, then the verses you brought up are not the church either. </font>[/QUOTE]Boy, SFIC, how did everyone for 2,000 years of church history miss that obvious verse that you, in your wisdom, used to prove that Israel and the Church aren't the same?

Come on. No one means that the nation of Israel is the church. Believing Israelites have always been called the "ekklesia". Check out the Septuagint. The Greek word for church is used many times of believing Israel. When Gentiles were grafted in, they were not grafted into the physical nation of Israel. They were brought into the church of which believing Israelites were already a part. Thus (true, spiritual) Israel is the Church despite what you think to be your prooftext.

In regards to your proof, Paul was not talking about spiritual Israelites who were already saved and, thus, part of the church. He was saying that his desire was for those Israelites who were still unbelievers and were, thus, not true Israelites or part of the church. This has nothing to do with whether the terms Israel (in the spiritual sense) and church are interchangeable. Your argument, quite simply, proves nothing because the verse is not about what you are using it to prove.

 

[Mel Miller]

Calvibaptist,

Thanks, your quote supports that Paul gives one of two Purposes for Christ's Millennial Reign!!

Quote:
_______________________________________________
Paul was not talking about spiritual Israelites who were already saved and, thus, part of the church. He was saying that his desire was for those Israelites who were still unbelievers and were, thus, not true Israelites or part of the church. This has nothing to do with whether the terms Israel (in the spiritual sense) and church are interchangeable.
________________________________________________
You admit Paul is NOT concerned in Rom.11:25-27 with Israelites who are already saved. So the use of the name ISRAEL in this context requires the restoration of the nation of ISRAEL as God's channel of blessing to GENTILE nations.

You also admit that "This has nothing to do with whether the terms Israel (in the spiritual sense) and church are interchangeable".

Exactly!! That's the point for NOT substituting
the idea that the Church is "spiritual Israel".

Instead of sticking with God's promise to remove their blindness and save them as a nation, which
is the subject of Rom.11:26-27, why should you question this truth by saying the Church is
"spirital Israel". These two truths have nothing in common during the Millennium.

Just like you say: "This has nothing to do with whether the terms Israel (in the spiritual sense) and church are interchangeable".

One of God's purposes for the Millennial Reign
of Christ on earth after the salvation of "all Israel" (at the second coming) results in God
"showing mercy to ALL" (Rom.11:33), both to Gentiles and Jews at once, under the terms of
a New Covenant that ISRAEL will fulfill so that
"all men will know the Lord, from the least to the greatest" when they realize the old covenant is no longer "about to vanish". Heb.8:8-13.

The Pre-Tribbers have it all wrong by teaching
the Old Covenant will be "restored" during the
tribulation and during the Millennium!!

The Church will not fulfill the Millennial Purpose given to a "restored Israel". But the
"overcomers in the Church will sit on thrones
ruling the nations with a rod of iron while
those beheaded for Christ and who come out of
the great tribulation will serve God as Pillars in the Temple of heaven for 1000 years". Rev. 2:25-27; Rev.3:11-12; Rev.7:14-17; Rev.20:4.

A new set up will come into existence in which nations will finally be separated as "sheep or as goats; with the goats cast to Hell and the sheep inheriting an eternal kingdom on the new earth". Matt.25:32-34; Rev.21:24-26;Rev.22:2,14.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net