Tribulation Salvation

[Daniel David]

Chris, you are quite right that the 1st century church experienced tribulation. However, if that is your basis for ruling out a future time that in unparallelled in history, you must argue from silence.

Seeing how Jesus described it as the worst time in human history, I fail to see how you can say it is regulated to the 1st century.

The problem with this thread isn't about a tribulation or not, it is about false teachers saying that people are saved differently throughout history. That is a grave error.

 

[bro. coley]

Larry, is calling someone "false teacher"the same as calling them dispensationalist

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by bro. coley:
Larry, is calling someone "false teacher"the same as calling them dispensationalist

No. Why?

 

[bro. coley]

Originally posted by PreachtheWord:
Chris, you are quite right that the 1st century church experienced tribulation. However, if that is your basis for ruling out a future time that in unparallelled in history, you must argue from silence.

Seeing how Jesus described it as the worst time in human history, I fail to see how you can say it is regulated to the 1st century.

The problem with this thread isn't about a tribulation or not, it is about false teachers saying that people are saved differently throughout history. That is a grave error.

sir if you would like to have a friendly debate fine however if you prefer to sling mud I will be happy to acommodate you via e-mail.just because we dont agree does not give you a corner market on this study. even you have a right to be wrong. :

 

[Kiffin]

bro. coley,

I don't think PREACH THE WORD's comments were intended as personal. He is correct. To teach that people are saved differently throughout history is heresy (not just a error in theology) in that it insults the work of Christ on the Cross, and fails to realize humanity's inability to save himself. There has always been only ONE plan of Salvation in both the New and Old Testament.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Chris Temple:
any pretribulationists not consider Chinese, Indonesian and Sudanese believers in the church?

No. If they are believers in this age they are in teh church. Why?

 

[BrianT]

Pastor Larry,

Even though I disagree with you about pretrib, I think you have a good head on your shoulders. I am interested in what you think about this subject. How are "trib saints" saved? What is their salvation, and its process?

Brian

 

[Chris Temple]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chris Temple:
any pretribulationists not consider Chinese, Indonesian and Sudanese believers in the church?

No. If they are believers in this age they are in teh church. Why?</font>[/QUOTE]I'm wondering how pretribbers reconcile the fact that the church has and continues to go through tribulation throughout history into the present, yet the church will be "raptured" out of "the" tribulation.

Is it only western, English speaking Christians who will miss the Big Trib?

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; the time is near. 9 ¶ I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ ...

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by BrianT:
How are "trib saints" saved? What is their salvation, and its process?

Thanks for your kindness. I think they are saved like everyone else in human history, by faith in and response to the revelation of God. In the tribulation it is the acceptance of Christ as Lord and Savior just as it does now. In other words, I don't think they are saved any differently than we are.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Chris Temple:
I'm wondering how pretribbers reconcile the fact that the church has and continues to go through tribulation throughout history into the present, yet the church will be "raptured" out of "the" tribulation.

Is it only western, English speaking Christians who will miss the Big Trib?

I am confused as to why you think every tribulation or trial that the church has experienced is the Tribulation? Does that not involve the same kind of thinking that certain people use when they assert that the NIV calls Christ "Satan" in Isaiah 14:12 because it uses the term "Morning Star"? In other words, just because the word "tribulation" is used in two or three different contexts, does not mean that the "tribulation" must all be the same. Consider that the Tribulation is described as judgments and torments such as have never come on the earth until that day, such that the elect are even "in danger" if it is not "cut short." How is the ongoing tribulation of 2000 years fit into that? It must be the standard of comparison by which the Tribulation is judged. The tribulation of 2000 years is not nearly as bad as the torments of the tribulation. If the torments of the tribulation are the 2000 year tribulation of the church, then what is the comparison to? I would suggest it is a meaningless comparison.

I think your assumption is based on a faulty foundation that the tribulation the church has experienced for 2000 years is the 7 year tribulation talked about in Daniel and Revelation. I don't see the necessary exegetical connection there.

All Christians from the church age (from all countries) will miss the tribulation because it is not for them. They have already been purified and have already accepted the Messiah.

[ July 31, 2002, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[postrib]

...Consider that the Tribulation is described as judgments...

Does Revelation describe the seals and trumpets of the tribulation as "judgments?" I believe God's judgment doesn't come until the 7 vials of wrath at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 15:4, Revelation 16:7), and none of them are directed at us Christians.

...and torments such as have never come on the earth until that day, such that the elect are even "in danger" if it is not "cut short."...

I believe Jesus said the tribulation will be cut short because we the elect will still be here: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Matthew 24:21-22).

I believe we in the church are the elect:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:2).

...All Christians from the church age (from all countries) will miss the tribulation because it is not for them...

Note that the Bible doesn't refer to a "church age," but instead says that the church is "throughout all ages, world without end" (Ephesians 3:21).

In your view, how could we Christians who will be in the tribulation who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) not be in his body?

 

[Alex]

Originally posted by Kiffin:
bro. coley,

I don't think PREACH THE WORD's comments were intended as personal. He is correct. To teach that people are saved differently throughout history is heresy (not just a error in theology) in that it insults the work of Christ on the Cross, and fails to realize humanity's inability to save himself. There has always been only ONE plan of Salvation in both the New and Old Testament.

Maybe I didn't understand you, but there is a vast difference between the OT and NT, that being the person of Jesus Christ. The Jews still follow the OT and do not believe the NT and that it is now only via Jesus that you can be saved. If you are refering to faith in God yes, but that alone without accepting Him/Christ is for nothing. God does not hear us except through Jesus even though He is God. Many have faith but have never accepted Him and asked for forgivness as many believe that faith(that He is God) and good works are enough. You say that Theology is wrong in this area. How? Again, I hope I misunderstood you!

God Bless.........Alex

 

[Kiffin]

Hi Alex,

Good to hear from another fellow member of the bayou state.

You said,

Maybe I didn't understand you, but there is a vast difference between the OT and NT, that being the person of Jesus Christ. The Jews still follow the OT and do not believe the NT and that it is now only via Jesus that you can be saved.
If you are refering to faith in God yes, but that alone without accepting Him/Christ is for nothing. God does not hear us except through Jesus even though He is God. Many have faith but have never accepted Him and asked for forgivness as many believe that faith(that He is God) and good works are enough. You say that Theology is wrong in this area. How? Again, I hope I misunderstood you!

I think you did misunderstand me. My point is one is saved only by Faith in Jesus. The OT saints looked by faith for the Messiah while we look back in faith to Christ. There are some people who hold to dispensational Premill however that believe that in the future that people will be saved by works (Check past posts). That is not only wrong but fails to understand total depravity and the need for Blood atonement by Christ.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by postrib:
Does Revelation describe the seals and trumpets of the tribulation as "judgments?"

Read it and see what you think. It is inconceivable that they are not judgments. And if they are not judgments, then what in the world are they? You are most certainly right that they are not directed at us Christians. That is one strong reason why we will not be here. Those judgments are not for us.

I believe Jesus said the tribulation will be cut short because we the elect will still be here: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Matthew 24:21-22).

[/qb]yes but the implication is clear that if they were not shortened, even the elect would fall away. At what point in history has this happened that they were shortened, followed immediately by the Son of man coming in glory? And to what are these judgments to be compared if they are all through church history? And how does 2000 years of church history match 7 years in any respect whatsoever? There are just too many unanswered questions and leaps in logic.

I believe we in the church are the elect:

So do I but I do not believe that we are all of the elect. There was elect in the OT and will be in the Tribulation and in the Millennium

Note that the Bible doesn't refer to a "church age," but instead says that the church is "throughout all ages, world without end" (Ephesians 3:21).

[/qb]Paul clearly referes to a dispensation of the church that was a mystery in previous times and is different now (Eph 3). Those are Paul's words not mine. If you want to argue with the new dispensation in which the Gentiles and Jews stand on equal plain, you will have to argue with Paul.

In your view, how could we Christians who will be in the tribulation who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) not be in his body?

"We Christians" are not in the tribulation so I do not follow your question. The tribulation saints are not in the body of Christ because the body has been raptured. The tribulation saints are likely grouped with the OT believers. This is defended in more able sources than I which you can study for further support.

 

[postrib]

...It is inconceivable that they are not judgments...

Why?

...if they are not judgments, then what in the world are they?...

War, famine, plague, persecution, natural disaster, death -- things which we Christians have always suffered, and not because God was bringing judgment against us.

...the new dispensation in which the Gentiles and Jews stand on equal plain...

Note again that the Bible doesn't say the new dispensation will end, but instead says that the church is "throughout all ages, world without end" (Ephesians 3:21).

..."We Christians" are not in the tribulation...

What religion will we be who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord?" (Revelation 14:13)

...the body has been raptured...

Note that no scripture promises us a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus says he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul says Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). We Christians must go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

...The tribulation saints are likely grouped with the OT believers...

Note that there are no longer any OT believers, for now all believers are after the cross and after Pentecost.

 

[LadyEagle]

You are correct the passage in Matthew speaks of what happens after the Great Tribulation.

But it is not saying the rapture will happen after the Great Trib. The passage in Matthew is speaking of when Jesus Christ comes back with His saints to rule & reign. Jesus Christ's second coming to Earth when His feet touch the Mt. of Olives and split it in two. When Jesus comes back for the Bride, We MEET Him in the Air.

Note:

"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Note here: "Gathering elect from one end of heaven to the other" does not say gathering from earth. The elect are already in heaven, therefore, the rapture, dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain shall be caught up to be with Him, means it happened already as described in I. Thes.

Yes, there have been famines, earthquakes, wars, rumors of war, pestilence since the beginning. But we haven't seen 1/3 of the earth destroyed yet or the moon turn to blood as will happen in the Great Tribulation. We haven't seen the abomination of abominations happen in the 3rd Solomon's Temple at Jerusalem, either, yet. We haven't seen total world wide identification, yet, though it is close.

We don't see people fleeing to Petra, yet. Those who finally believe during the Great Trib & become saved, accepting Jesus Christ IS the Son of God, Messiah, after all, will be beheaded. Israelis who flee & hide in the Rock City of Petra (in present-day Jordan) will find the Bibles that pre-trib Believers have hidden there for them to find with the Gospel.

All who wait & become Christians after the Rapture will be beheaded if found. All who manage to endure to the end (without taking the Mark of the Beast) & not found by the Anti-Christ worldwide government will be physically (bodily) saved. We haven't seen the worldwide mark yet that will have to be worn in the hand or forehead in order to buy & sell, either.

And I personally believe the vivid description of the great harlot/Babylon described in Rev. 18 could be NYC. On 09/11, the description in Rev. 18 fit NYC like a glove. The whole world was in turmoil. The merchants (Wall St./stock market) was in shock. The global economy was affected. It was carnage with smoke as described in Rev. 18. But it wasn't that particular event though perhaps it was a foretaste of that final description in Rev. 18. I don't know. I won't be around when that happens, I'll be with Jesus wearing my glorified body.

And no, I don't place this doctrine or beliefs on Hal Lindsay or the Left Behind series, etc. I have studied this for more than 40 years & have believed this for nearly as long, based on Bible Prophecy, comparing Scriptures with Scriptures, OT and NT. (KJV, BTW)

But of course if one doesn't believe in both a Literal and Figurative Interpretation in Bible prophecy, then nothing anyone can post here will make a difference. So.....we'll wait & see. I'm listening for the sweet trumpet sound.

The rapture will be a surprise only to those who aren't looking for it to come.....Some of us wake up & say, "Lord, are you coming today? We're ready to go! This old wicked planet is NOT our home!"

"There is going to be a meeting in the air, in the sweet, sweet by & by....

I am going to meet you, meet you there, in that land beyond the sky..."

Selah & Shalom.

 

[tfisher]

Originally posted by postrib:

I believe Jesus said the tribulation will be cut short because we the elect will still be here: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Matthew 24:21-22).

I believe we in the church are the elect:

I am not trying to pick on postrib or jump in on the pretrib - postrib debate, as I am still searching for what I believe the Bible teaches on this subject. I grew up pre-trib, but have recently had a pastor who is mid-trib and have begun searching for the Biblical answer for myself. Maybe someone can help me put this passage in perspective. First of all, I know that the Bible is not always referring to the church when it says "elect" because of 2 Timothy 5:21. The term must be placed in context to determine about whom it is speaking.

That being said, why would I not think that this passage in Matthew is referring to the salvation and gathering of the nation of Israel instead of the church? There are specific references to the Jewish nation in this passage (Matt. 5:16). Here in this passage the angels do the gathering. In 1 Thess. 4:16-17 it appears that the Lord is alone. Maybe someone can answer these point by point. I can't say that these views are mine. I was reading about Matthew 24 in "The New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge". That is where I came up with this.

 

[postrib]

...When Jesus comes back for the Bride, We MEET Him in the Air...

Amen. I believe we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But note that Matthew 24:29-31 doesn't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 is also not the 2nd coming?

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

...does not say gathering from earth...

"They shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" (Matthew 24:31).

Here "heaven" is the 1st heaven, the sky, where Jesus is revealed to the nations, as in Matthew 24:30's "heaven."

Note that we're gathered from the earth and the sky:

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the EARTH to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13:27).

I believe the rapture will first catch us straight up into the clouds above the point on the earth where we will be at that time, and then we will all be gathered together from all around the globe into one place above Jerusalem where Jesus will be.

...Matthew is referring to the salvation and gathering of the nation of Israel instead of the church...

How are the elect of the church and the elect of Israel mutually exclusive? "For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" (Romans 11:1).

I also believe the gathering together of Matthew 24:31 is for believing Jews, and for believing Gentiles -- indeed for everyone in the church: "In the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ" (Ephesians 1:10).

...in this passage the angels do the gathering. In 1 Thess. 4:16-17 it appears that the Lord is alone...

Note that "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is in the passive; it doesn't say we'll catch up ourselves, or that Jesus himself will catch us up. Jesus will catch us up by sending his angels: "Then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect" (Mark 13:27).

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hello!

The plan of the gospel of salvation never change since Early Church, it will continue through Great Tribulation till the end of the world(second advent) - Matt 28:19-20.

Yes many will be saved during Great Tribulation under the same gospel of salvation since Early Church to today.

Many will be saved by the faith only, not by works. Eph. 2:8-9 alway be the same way of salvation till second advent.

Some believe that many who will miss rapture. Then they will have to follow the commandments and do good works of salvation during Tribulation. (Ruckman believes it)because of the Holy Spirit leaves - 2 Thess 2:7.

The Holy Spirit will never leave world, Holy Spirit will stay here and working through us to witness the gospel to people during Tribulation.

Jesus tells us, he is WITH US till the end of the world - Matt 28:20. Clearly, Holy Spirit will always be with us during Tribulaiton.

Many will be saved during Tribulation.

2 Thess 2:7 is talking about Antichrist is now being restraining back from being revealed, till Antichrist will take out of the way(midst) then Antichrist will be reaveled - 2 Thess 2:8.

There is no other way different plan of salvation during Tribulation. There will be alway SAME plan of salvation during Tribulation till Christ comes.

Have a nice day!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Alex]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Hello!

The plan of the gospel of salvation never change since Early Church, it will continue through Great Tribulation till the end of the world(second advent) - Matt 28:19-20.

Yes many will be saved during Great Tribulation under the same gospel of salvation since Early Church to today.

Many will be saved by the faith only, not by works. Eph. 2:8-9 alway be the same way of salvation till second advent.

Some believe that many who will miss rapture. Then they will have to follow the commandments and do good works of salvation during Tribulation. (Ruckman believes it)because of the Holy Spirit leaves - 2 Thess 2:7.
The Holy Spirit will never leave world, Holy Spirit will stay here and working through us to witness the gospel to people during Tribulation.

Jesus tells us, he is WITH US till the end of the world - Matt 28:20. Clearly, Holy Spirit will always be with us during Tribulaiton.

Many will be saved during Tribulation.

2 Thess 2:7 is talking about Antichrist is now being restraining back from being revealed, till Antichrist will take out of the way(midst) then Antichrist will be reaveled - 2 Thess 2:8.

There is no other way different plan of salvation during Tribulation. There will be alway SAME plan of salvation during Tribulation till Christ comes.

Have a nice day!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

Hello:

The part in Italics has me a little confused. I am a Pretriber and believe that during Tribulation, ALL, who are saved, will be by FAITH in Jesus as it is now and not by works. Could you explain this part a little more AND I haven't read all of the posts so I am not sure which way you believe as per the Tribulation. To me, those caught up in the clouds with Jesus are the saved at that particular time, both living and dead. But those left behind can be saved by accepting Jesus BUT it won't be an easy task due to the "terrors" of Tribulations. Those saved during this time will live or die as normally it is now and they won't see Jesus till His FINAL coming to earth for the 1000 year reign. Maybe I am wrong??

God Bless.............Alex

[ August 25, 2002, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: Alex ]