Tribulation Salvation

[DeafPosttrib]

Hello!

Many saying Rev. 12:17, and 14:12 that the saints who will miss rapture, they will be saved during Tribulation by doing works in order for salvation same as in O.T.

We are commanded to keep the commandments in John 14:15- "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

It tells us, if we love Jesus, we should keep the commandments.

Being to keep the commandments are not for salvation. We are saved by the faith only - Eph. 2:8-9. Then, after our salvation, we are commanded to keep the commandments, for the purpose, that we will face Judgement Seat of Christ for the rewards according to our works.

1 Timothy 6:14 - "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our LOrd Jesus Christ."

It tells us, that we are commanded to keep the commandments, to keep out testimony good without blame till the second advent of Christ.

Same with Rev. 12:17, and 14:12.

Many saying on Matt 24:13 - "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." It means that a saint in Tribulation will have to keep good works, and living holy without sin till Lord comes, then be saved.

No, not what it is talking about. It tells us, that we should be endure(patience) while face tribulaitons, and patience. We should not give up it, we should endure all the way till our life over.

In 2 Thess 1:4 - "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God, for your PATIENCE and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that YE ENDURE."

Paul tells us, that we should be endure while face tribulations, and presecutions, means we have to be patience and faith to be faithful not give up till we die or Lord comes.

Same with Rev. 2:10 tells us, that a Christian should be faithful and patience while face tribulations and persecutions suffering dying to death, not give up it. Then shal receive the reward - crown of life.

Yes, many will be saved during Tribulation, because the gospel must be continue spreading across the world - Matt 24:14, Mark 13:10, and Matt 28:19-20 too till the end of the world as Christ comes.

The salvation during in Great Tribulation will still alway SAME as we witness the gospel of salvation today.

Have a nice day!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hello!

Many saying Rev. 12:17, and 14:12 that the saints who will miss rapture, they will be saved during Tribulation by doing works in order for salvation same as in O.T.

We are commanded to keep the commandments in John 14:15- "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

It tells us, if we love Jesus, we should keep the commandments.

Being to keep the commandments are not for salvation. We are saved by the faith only - Eph. 2:8-9. Then, after our salvation, we are commanded to keep the commandments, for the purpose, that we will face Judgement Seat of Christ for the rewards according to our works.

1 Timothy 6:14 - "That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our LOrd Jesus Christ."

It tells us, that we are commanded to keep the commandments, to keep out testimony good without blame till the second advent of Christ.

Same with Rev. 12:17, and 14:12.

Many saying on Matt 24:13 - "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." It means that a saint in Tribulation will have to keep good works, and living holy without sin till Lord comes, then be saved.

No, not what it is talking about. It tells us, that we should be endure(patience) while face tribulaitons, and patience. We should not give up it, we should endure all the way till our life over.

In 2 Thess 1:4 - "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God, for your PATIENCE and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that YE ENDURE."

Paul tells us, that we should be endure while face tribulations, and presecutions, means we have to be patience and faith to be faithful not give up till we die or Lord comes.

Same with Rev. 2:10 tells us, that a Christian should be faithful and patience while face tribulations and persecutions suffering dying to death, not give up it. Then shal receive the reward - crown of life.

Yes, many will be saved during Tribulation, because the gospel must be continue spreading across the world - Matt 24:14, Mark 13:10, and Matt 28:19-20 too till the end of the world as Christ comes.

The salvation during in Great Tribulation will still alway SAME as we witness the gospel of salvation today.

Have a nice day!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I do not mean to post it twice same time

 

[hrhema]

What confuses a lot of people is they don't stop and think before they speak. Jesus did not come to Earth for the Gentiles when he was present here on Earth. He came to bring the Gospel or the Good News to Israel. His teachings were to the Jews not to the Gentiles. When he gave the teaching on the end time he was speaking of things that would happen concerning the Jews not Gentiles.

What Paul was speaking about in I Thessalonians was directed to those in the church whether it be Jew or Gentile at the time of the Rapture. Jesus in Matthew was talking about the Jews. The Jews will be the ones the angels will gather. The fact that Jesus said the angels will gather these elect let us know this is not the same event that will transpire according to Paul's teaching because Paul said we will rise to meet Jesus in the air. Paul did not say the angels will gather us.

The Book of Revelation states that Jesus when he comes the second time will coming with the Army of Heaven who will be robed in robes of white. That tells us it will be the believers who washed their robes white in the blood of the lamb. How can anyone state that at this time he will gather all the elect Jew and Gentile. The Bride that was raptured before the tribulation will be the elect that is on the white horses following after Jesus. In Revelation 15 it states that John saw what looked like a crystal sea mixed with fire and upon that crystal sea stood all the people who have been victorious over the beast and his statue. These are the saints martyred in the Great Tribulation. They are already in Heaven before Jesus returns on the white horse.

When Jesus came the first time he was on Earth.
When he comes the second time it will be when he touches the EArth again. The rapture is not the second coming.

 

[blackbird]

The Tribulation saints will be saved just like every person has ever been saved since Adam--by the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ. Ephesians 2:8-9 counts from the beginning of time--"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." If it is ever through works then the Lord Jesus Christ died in vain! If there were any other way to be saved other than through the Lord Jesus--then God's trip to Calvary is the blunder of the ages!

 

[Graceforever]

Originally posted by KEVO:
Ken,that is true in the church age only. For example a person is not saved by faith in the millenium,you don't need faith to be saved then because Jesus is on earth. In the tribulation a person is saved by works.
KEVO

I have to seriously disagree with what you’re saying…… You can’t show me a period in bible history that any soul has ever been saved by works…. Show me!

Without the shedding of blood no one can be saved… Someone has definitely told you wrong, because you didn’t find this doctrine in the bible…..

 

[DeafPosttrib]

hrhema,

You said,

"Jesus did not come to Earth for the Gentiles when he was present here on Earth."

Yes, Jesus came to earth, for what? To save sinners who are lost - Matt 18:11- "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost." Christ to the Earth, not just for Jews in Israel only, also, He came to earth to save sinners both Jews and Gentiles. Also, in Luke 19:10 - "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

John 3:16 is a famous verse among Christians. It tells us, that God sent His Son to the world, because He so love the world so, Christ died for the sinners both Jews and Gentiles.

Christ won Samartian lady in John chapter 4.

Matthew 24- Jesus was talking to his disciples, all of them are followers as Christians. You say, Matthew 24 is for the Jews only.

But pretribbers use Matt 24:42, and 44 to apply us as Church. So, therefore they take verse 42 and 44 out of the context of Matthew 24. Matthew chapter 24 is apply to us as Christians.

Christ said, "Ye", "You" 20 times in Matthew 24. He was spoken to his disciples same as it apply to us as Christians.

You said,

"The fact that Jesus said the angels will gather these elect let us know this is not same event that will transpire according to Paul's teaching because Paul said we will rise to meet Jesus in the air. Paul did not say the angels will gather us."

In 1 Thess 4:15 - "For this we say unto you by the WORD of the Lord,..."

Paul wrote by quote the words from the Lord's by through the revelation. When Paul was in the desert with Christ for three years. Christ taught the things to Paul through the revelation - Galatians 1:12.

That how Paul learned things from Jesus Christ.

1 Thess 4:15-17 is same with Matt 24:30 -31.

"Coming" of Matt 24:30 is same with 1 Thes 4:15 "coming".

"Clouds" of Matt 24:30 is same with 1 Thess 4:17 "clouds

"trumpet" of Matt 24:31 is same with 1 Thess 4:16 "trump"

"together" of Matt 24:31 is same with 1 Thess 4:17.

You said, "Paul did not say the angels will gather us."

Oh yes, in 2 Thess 1:7 - "And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels."

Paul telling us, that Christians' persecutions and tribulaitons will not be finish and rest TILL Christ comes with his angels, that is the second advent!

You said, "The rapture is not the second coming."

Honest, I admit to telling you, I fail to see where a verse in the Bible saying there will be rapture occurs 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE the second advent.

Please can you show me where a verse saying there will be rapture occurs 3 1/2 or 7 years earlier BEFORE the second advent in the Bible.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[postrib]

...When he gave the teaching on the end time he was speaking of things that would happen concerning the Jews not Gentiles...

Note that while Jesus described his coming and the rapture and resurrection of believers in John 14:3, Mark 13:26-27, and John 6:40, before the body of Christ had been formed, this in no way requires that the events he described won't happen to the body of Christ which now exists, just as his describing of salvation in John 3:16 before the body of Christ had been formed in no way requires that the salvation he described doesn't now happen to the body of Christ.

In the pre-trib view, isn't Matthew 24:36-44 spoken to us Christians, whether Jew or Gentile? Note that Jesus is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

...Paul did not say the angels will gather us...

Note that every description of the 2nd coming and rapture doesn't include every element of it. For example, we don't find the shout or the voice of the archangel of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 anywhere in 1 Corinthians 15:52, nor do we find the white horse of Revelation 19:11 or Jesus' setting foot on the Mount of Olives of Zechariah 14:4 anywhere in Matthew 24:29-31. Do some then believe that Revelation 19 and Matthew 24:29-31 are two separate events?

Note that "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is in the passive; it doesn't say we'll catch up ourselves, or that Jesus himself will catch us up. Jesus will catch us up by sending his angels: "Then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect" (Mark 13:27).

...The Book of Revelation states that Jesus when he comes the second time will coming with the Army of Heaven...

Note that at the rapture all the saints in heaven will come back "with" Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:14).

...The Bride that was raptured before the tribulation...

Note that no scripture promises us a rapture before the tribulation.

Some believe the tribulation may be for some Christians, but not for the bride of Christ. But there are no Christians outside of the bride, for all believers form a single body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which is the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:30-32). We Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost, saved in no different way than Christians who have died or will die before the tribulation. Many of us will be slain for the word of God and cry out to the Lord (Revelation 6:9-10); we will have washed our robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14); we will have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17) and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12) and will be in the Lord (Revelation 14:13); if we die, we will enter into heaven itself (Revelation 15:2); some of us will be beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God, and we will all live and reign with Christ (Revelation 20:4).

...When he comes the second time it will be when he touches the EArth again...

I believe that we will be caught up to meet Jesus coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

"The Son of man coming in the clouds...
with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect"
(Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord...
with the trump of God...
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord"
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

I don't believe that the scriptures teach two different comings "in the clouds,"
or two different "last" trumps (1 Corinthians 15:52),
or two different raptures.

Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But note that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 don't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 are also not the 2nd coming?

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

 

[Alex]

Originally posted by postrib:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> ...When he gave the teaching on the end time he was speaking of things that would happen concerning the Jews not Gentiles...

Note that while Jesus described his coming and the rapture and resurrection of believers in John 14:3, Mark 13:26-27, and John 6:40, before the body of Christ had been formed, this in no way requires that the events he described won't happen to the body of Christ which now exists, just as his describing of salvation in John 3:16 before the body of Christ had been formed in no way requires that the salvation he described doesn't now happen to the body of Christ.

In the pre-trib view, isn't Matthew 24:36-44 spoken to us Christians, whether Jew or Gentile? Note that Jesus is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

...Paul did not say the angels will gather us...

Note that every description of the 2nd coming and rapture doesn't include every element of it. For example, we don't find the shout or the voice of the archangel of 1 Thessalonians 4:16 anywhere in 1 Corinthians 15:52, nor do we find the white horse of Revelation 19:11 or Jesus' setting foot on the Mount of Olives of Zechariah 14:4 anywhere in Matthew 24:29-31. Do some then believe that Revelation 19 and Matthew 24:29-31 are two separate events?

Note that "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is in the passive; it doesn't say we'll catch up ourselves, or that Jesus himself will catch us up. Jesus will catch us up by sending his angels: "Then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect" (Mark 13:27).

...The Book of Revelation states that Jesus when he comes the second time will coming with the Army of Heaven...

Note that at the rapture all the saints in heaven will come back "with" Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:14).

...The Bride that was raptured before the tribulation...

Note that no scripture promises us a rapture before the tribulation.

Some believe the tribulation may be for some Christians, but not for the bride of Christ. But there are no Christians outside of the bride, for all believers form a single body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which is the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:30-32). We Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost, saved in no different way than Christians who have died or will die before the tribulation. Many of us will be slain for the word of God and cry out to the Lord (Revelation 6:9-10); we will have washed our robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14); we will have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17) and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12) and will be in the Lord (Revelation 14:13); if we die, we will enter into heaven itself (Revelation 15:2); some of us will be beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God, and we will all live and reign with Christ (Revelation 20:4).

...When he comes the second time it will be when he touches the EArth again...

I believe that we will be caught up to meet Jesus coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

"The Son of man coming in the clouds...
with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect"
(Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord...
with the trump of God...
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord"
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

I don't believe that the scriptures teach two different comings "in the clouds,"
or two different "last" trumps (1 Corinthians 15:52),
or two different raptures.

Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But note that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 don't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 are also not the 2nd coming?

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.</font>[/QUOTE]Just curious as I am a PreTrib and believe He will come first ONLY as far as the clouds and there is where all who are saved at that point in time goes. The final coming of Jesus is for the 1000 years and our final judgement.

The last paragraph in your post referred twice to Christ as going fatther than the clouds, to Heaven. A question:

Since Heaven is in a fourth dimension(spirit world) that we can't see, then where is Heaven? Since we can't see it, couldn't it be all around us or in the clouds? Heaven doesn't have to be light years away from us.

God Bless.........Alex

 

[postrib]

...I am a PreTrib...

On what scripture do you base your belief that the rapture is before the tribulation?

...and believe He will come first ONLY as far as the clouds...

Based on what scripture do you believe this?

 

[post-it]

I never understood why you post and pre people spend so much time talking and thinking about a 7-year time period in the future. Each generation seems to think "they are it" and then drop everything important and start making plans for the final exit. 3 million people will die this year in America alone that thought they would be in the final rapture, it happened to another 3 million last year and so on back to 30 AD.

The odds say you won't be in the rapture, so far the odds are in the 100 Billions to one based on history.

Discussing how you might be that lucky lottery winner just seems to be silly to me. Of course, I could be wrong.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hello!

Post-It,

2 Thess 2:1-3 is very clear telling us that the gathering together will not come till we must see the first of two things: "falling away" - apostasy, and we will see Antichrist revealed.

If you saying, 'I'm Pretrib', you have to show me where scripture saying rapture will occur before tribulation?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hello!

Post-It,

2 Thess 2:1-3 is very clear telling us that the gathering together will not come till we must see the first of two things: "falling away" - apostasy, and we will see Antichrist revealed.

If you saying, 'I'm Pretrib', you have to show me where scripture saying rapture will occur before tribulation?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

sorry, I do not mean to post it same twice. I have trouble with post sereval times.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Hello!

Post-It,

2 Thess 2:1-3 is very clear telling us that the gathering together will not come till we must see the first of two things: "falling away" - apostasy, and we will see Antichrist revealed.

Well both those things happen by at least 100 AD. That was 2000 years ago. What other esoteric sign are you waiting for? I think we have at least another 100 years minimum before the rapture happens.

[ September 01, 2002, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hello!

Apostasy already happened since Early Church. It happened often through the Church history to today.

Myself notice the signs of apostasy is increasing worser as climax than ever before.

Can't you see apostasy is already happening everywhere today?

We are in apostasy period now.

Then, the next event is the Antichrist to be revealed.

Pastors saying, 'don't worry, we will be rapture first, we will not face Antichrist and 666 in Tribulation'.

2 Thess 2:3 is very clear telling us that the gathering together will not come till we will face Antichrist first to persecute us for 42 months - Rev. 13:5,7, & 10.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Alex]

Originally posted by post-it:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
Hello!

Post-It,

2 Thess 2:1-3 is very clear telling us that the gathering together will not come till we must see the first of two things: "falling away" - apostasy, and we will see Antichrist revealed.

Well both those things happen by at least 100 AD. That was 2000 years ago. What other esoteric sign are you waiting for? I think we have at least another 100 years minimum before the rapture happens.</font>[/QUOTE]post it:

You say both happened near 100AD? Who was the Antichrist? I agree with the Rapture being far in the future. A lot of things has to happen before then!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hello!

1 John 2:18 - "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

John wrote it, it was around 90-95 A.D.

John told them, that we already see many antichrists spreading everywhere, know that we are in the last day.

Last day already start at Pentacost Day, it is occuring right now till second advent.

Good example - Adolf Hither claimed, that he is God. He was a Antichrist.

Through Church history, many people claimed that they are God.

For 2000 years, we have been see many peolle claim that they are antichrist.

I believe 2 Thess 2:3 is focus on ONE final world dicator - Antichrist will be revealed to begin 3 1/2 years of Great Tribulation - Rev. 13:5-10.

2 Thess 2:3-4 clearly telling us, that the gathering together will not come till we will see Antichrist to be revealed and will persecute us(temple of God).

Have a nice day!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hello!

1 John 2:18 - "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time."

John wrote it, it was around 90-95 A.D.

John told them, that we already see many antichrists spreading everywhere, know that we are in the last day.

Last day already start at Pentacost Day, it is occuring right now till second advent.

Good example - Adolf Hither claimed, that he is God. He was a Antichrist.

Through Church history, many people claimed that they are God.

For 2000 years, we have been see many peolle claim that they are antichrist.

I believe 2 Thess 2:3 is focus on ONE final world dicator - Antichrist will be revealed to begin 3 1/2 years of Great Tribulation - Rev. 13:5-10.

2 Thess 2:3-4 clearly telling us, that the gathering together will not come till we will see Antichrist to be revealed and will persecute us(temple of God).

Have a nice day!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!