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Trichotomy or Dichotomy
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
Since we now know that our fallen human spirit is described in scripture as having the ability to seek God, as demonstrated by Matthew 26:41, Calvinism must now claim folks were made alive before Christ paid the ransom, and, drum roll please, every case where a person seeks God in scripture is a person who has been regenerated. The sheer idiocy of these assertions is mind blowing. Esua sought God to no avail, so he was regenerated, but excluded. All the folks who sought God by works were regenerated but excluded. The absurdity of Calvinism is galactic.
Our soul is part of our human spirit, based on both being described in scripture in the same way such as being troubled.
Our soul is part of our human spirit, based on both being described in scripture in the same way such as being troubled.
until saved, ALL of us were spiritual dead and separated from God!
What is the definition of a "soul" and a "spirit"?
There is also a third view, the view of monism, common to Asian religions. This is the view that makes mind and body one.
I am a trichotomist. I believe this fits the Scripture best, and I believe it provides a workable model for Christian counseling. (See the works of Charles Solomon.)
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
The "soul" is the real YOU, and the "spirit" is the life that God gives to each human
I will give a shot without much thought.
Spirit if life. Comes from and only from, God.
Soul is an inert entity which when imbued with spirit from God becomes, soul, person, exercising the five senses building character, good and bad.
and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, 'Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. Luke 23:46
The soul that doth sin -- it doth die. A son doth not bear of the iniquity of the father, And a father doth not bear of the iniquity of the son, The righteousness of the righteous is on him, And the wickedness of the wicked is on him. Ezek 18:20
for I delivered to you first, what also I did receive, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Writings, 1 Cor 15:3
having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left (in) to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. Acts 2:31
Well we know, where the spirit of him was. In the hands of the Father. What was the soul of him doing? When did the soul of him pass through the gates thereof? Did the gates thereof prevail over the soul of him? Romans 6:9 comes to mind. When did the soul of him depart and of what body did the soul of him come?
First, to answer the OP, I take the view of the dichotomy. As it has been (in my opinion) pointed out, God created man's body, breathed spirit (life) into him, and man became a living soul, rather than received a soul.
Secondly, in answer to this question, here is something that I feel makes an impact on this doctrine:
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living (h2416) soul (h5315).
The word living is: ḥay.
חַי chay, khah'-ee; from H2421; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively:— age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, merry, multitude, (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.
The word soul is:nep̄eš.
נֶפֶשׁ nephesh, neh'-fesh; from H5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):—any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, × dead(-ly), desire, × (dis-) contented, × fish, ghost, greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, × jeopardy of) life (× in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, slay, soul, tablet, they, thing, (× she) will, × would have it.
See where else they are found:
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living h2416 creature H5315 that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:24
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living h2416 creature H5315 after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Both man and the "living creatures" were created as "souls," which is the body and the life (which is the spirit).
Now for a New Testament comparison to look for consistency:
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living g2198 soul g5590; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living g2198 soul g5590 died in the sea.
Here, living is zaō. ζάω záō, dzah'-o; a primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively):—life(-time), (a-)live(-ly), quick.
"Soul" is psychē. ψυχή psychḗ, psoo-khay'; from G5594; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew H5315, H7307 and H2416):—heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
Both men and animals are called souls. Neither are said to possess souls. Biblical usage of soul primarily speaks of "the person" or persons. You will probably understand most passages better with that understanding. For example, one of the most abused passages used by the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) is the following:
Ezekiel 18:4; 20-23 KJV
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls h5315 are mine; as the soul h5315 of the father, so also the soul h5315 of the son is mine: the soul h5315 that sinneth, it shall die.
20 The soul h5315 that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
If "soul" is an immaterial of man's make-up, then here we see a proof text for eternal damnation of the "immaterial man." However, the context is plainly temporal. In view is keeping the Law.
If we conclude this has reference to eternal judgment, rather than the penalty the Law did in fact carry—physical death—then we must equally conclude that men can receive eternal life through keeping the Law.
See the problem there?
Continued...
A few more examples of "soul" being used in a way that an immaterial aspect is denied:
Acts 7:14
Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls g5590.
Acts 27:37
And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls g5590.
As to probably the greatest proof texts that the soul is an immaterial aspect of man's make-up ...
Hebrews 4:12 KJV
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
... we do see a division. However, understanding man's make-up is body and spirit, and the context of the above verse (the effect of the Word of God), it is easily reconciled, in that in view here is death. "The soul," being a reference to "the person," refers to the dividing of the spirit from the body. "Soul" can be used to refer to a man or woman whether they are in the body or not:
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls G5590 of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
John saw the persons who were martyrs.
This is tougher ...
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
... but we don't throw out an entire Bible filled with evidence of what soul means over one verse. What I believe Paul is doing here is praying for the preservation of spirit (which would refers to one's spiritual well-being), soul (which refers to one's daily life as a whole), and body (which would refer to one's physical health.
Finally, on the matter of man's make-up being spirit and body, and one being a soul, rather than having one, let's look at the understanding of the disciples of Christ, and Christ's confirmation of their view:
Luke 24:36-39 KJV
Luk 24:36And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
Luk 24:37But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luk 24:38And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
The disciples think they are seeing "a ghost" and they are frightened. The reason they are frightened is that their understanding of a man is that he is body and spirit. They think the Lord is dead, thus they must be seeing His spirit. The Lord confirms that view by saying, "...a spirit does not have flesh and bone."
Because the spirit, if it is just a spirit, has departed from its body.
Again, a person that has departed from the body can still be properly called "a soul," because the spirit is still "the person."
God bless.
Acts 7:14
Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls g5590.
Acts 27:37
And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls g5590.
As to probably the greatest proof texts that the soul is an immaterial aspect of man's make-up ...
Hebrews 4:12 KJV
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
... we do see a division. However, understanding man's make-up is body and spirit, and the context of the above verse (the effect of the Word of God), it is easily reconciled, in that in view here is death. "The soul," being a reference to "the person," refers to the dividing of the spirit from the body. "Soul" can be used to refer to a man or woman whether they are in the body or not:
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls G5590 of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
John saw the persons who were martyrs.
This is tougher ...
1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
... but we don't throw out an entire Bible filled with evidence of what soul means over one verse. What I believe Paul is doing here is praying for the preservation of spirit (which would refers to one's spiritual well-being), soul (which refers to one's daily life as a whole), and body (which would refer to one's physical health.
Finally, on the matter of man's make-up being spirit and body, and one being a soul, rather than having one, let's look at the understanding of the disciples of Christ, and Christ's confirmation of their view:
Luke 24:36-39 KJV
The disciples think they are seeing "a ghost" and they are frightened. The reason they are frightened is that their understanding of a man is that he is body and spirit. They think the Lord is dead, thus they must be seeing His spirit. The Lord confirms that view by saying, "...a spirit does not have flesh and bone."
Because the spirit, if it is just a spirit, has departed from its body.
Again, a person that has departed from the body can still be properly called "a soul," because the spirit is still "the person."
God bless.
Yes, sometimes "spirit" is used to refer to something other than our human spirit. But when our spirit is troubled, the idea is not
God hardening our "mind-set" or what we are currently thinking. But rather the idea refers to our heart-felt attitude and characteristic. Thus our heart is made obstinate.
In the phrase, the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak, our commitment to rule over our fleshly desires is in view, thus our attitudes and characteristics.
And as you mentioned the spirit of a person obvious refers to our human spirit.
Lets consider a few more verses:
Acts 7:14 refers to people, and more specifically to the core attributes and characteristics of people, thus in fact to their immaterial aspects. Ditto Acts 27:37
Obviously Revelation 6:9 refers to our immaterial part, as the body remains on earth.
Ditto for 1 Thessalonians 5:23 where our spirit and soul is set apart and kept to be united with our glorified body upon redemption.
And Darrel C was again spot on when he posted this:
The disciples think they are seeing "a ghost" and they are frightened. The reason they are frightened is that their understanding of a man is that he is body and spirit. They think the Lord is dead, thus they must be seeing His spirit. The Lord confirms that view by saying, "...a spirit does not have flesh and bone."
Because the spirit, if it is just a spirit, has departed from its body.
Again, a person that has departed from the body can still be properly called "a soul," because the spirit is still "the person."
Acts 7:14 refers to people, and more specifically to the core attributes and characteristics of people, thus in fact to their immaterial aspects. Ditto Acts 27:37
Obviously Revelation 6:9 refers to our immaterial part, as the body remains on earth.
Ditto for 1 Thessalonians 5:23 where our spirit and soul is set apart and kept to be united with our glorified body upon redemption.
And Darrel C was again spot on when he posted this:
The disciples think they are seeing "a ghost" and they are frightened. The reason they are frightened is that their understanding of a man is that he is body and spirit. They think the Lord is dead, thus they must be seeing His spirit. The Lord confirms that view by saying, "...a spirit does not have flesh and bone."
Because the spirit, if it is just a spirit, has departed from its body.
Again, a person that has departed from the body can still be properly called "a soul," because the spirit is still "the person."
Here are two more for consideration:
2 Corinthians 12:2
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth
such an one caught up to the third heaven.2 Corinthians 12:3
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
Revelation 4 KJV
4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Paul was not sure if he was caught up in his body or not. I think it unlikely, but I wouldn't be dogmatic.
John, however, states immediately he was in the spirit, which suggests he had left his body behind. It could be "in the spirit" in a "spiritual sense," lol, but I think we are seeing John's spirit going into Heaven.
God bless.
To me, there are two passages that categorially teach trichotomy, and I can't see how anyone explains those away:
1 Thess. 5:23--"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Heb. 4:12--"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
Having said that, there are definitely places in Scripture where the words are seemingly synonymous. I have no problem with that. Most words are polysemous, having more than one meaning and/or usage.
1 Thess. 5:23--"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Heb. 4:12--"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
Having said that, there are definitely places in Scripture where the words are seemingly synonymous. I have no problem with that. Most words are polysemous, having more than one meaning and/or usage.
These are the two strongest prooftexts for a trichotomy, in my view.
However, I think we can see an understanding which doesn't detract from the dichotomy, and will submit it for your consideration: Here, Paul prays for them concerning their spirit (in regard to their spiritual well-being), their soul (regarding their well-being as a whole in their daily life), and their body (in regard to their physical health).
This one is, I think, easier to view as a dichotomist: the term "soul" is perfectly acceptable for the one that died, their spirit having departed from the physical body (I saw the souls of them ...). In view is the Word of God bringing physical death. This applies to Old as well as New Testament Saints. In the Old Testament, the penalty for "breaking the Law (disobedience to God's will)" was physical death. "The 'soul (person)' that sinneth shall die. This is equally true for born-again believers: eating unworthily brought about the death of some believers in the early church.
So what I see this verse referring to is that failure to keep the Word can bring about a separation of the soul (person as a whole, which is primary usage of soul in Scripture) and the spirit (the actual immaterial aspect of man).
Most passages, if not all, are better understood from a dichotomist view, in my opinion. Ezekiel 18 is a great example.
But, as I said, I submit this for your consideration, because I'd be curious to see your opinion on it.
God bless.
I have just a few minutes here in our favorite coffee shop.
The soul is our real, immaterial self. It includes the human will, mind, emotions, personality, gender, creativity, etc.
The human spirit is that part of a person which communicates with God. So your statement "their spiritual well-being" fits right in a trichotomy view. We are reborn in the spirit at salvation. The Holy Spirit dwells in our regenerated spirit, which is perfect, unlike our soul, which still has a sin nature. This is an area where trichotomy has a better explanation, IMO. The Holy Spirit cannot dwell where there is sin--like in a spirit/soul thought of as the same thing.
The problem with your view is that the comparison is being made with an actual, physical separation, the joints and marrow. So why is not the separating line between soul and spirit also literal?
I'm not seeing the Ezek. 18 connection. Please elaborate.
Keep talking, and I'm happy to answer when I have time--probably on Monday.
Have a cup of Pike Place for me.
In Revelation we see "souls" in Heaven, meaning John sees people. They are departed from their bodies and we know they are spirits (though this aspect of the discussion, whether they are glorified or not, could be a thread unto itself). These "souls" have no problem communicating with God (How long, Oh Lord ...?).
I posted this a few posts back, and submit it for your consideration:
Finally, on the matter of man's make-up being spirit and body, and one being a soul, rather than having one, let's look at the understanding of the disciples of Christ, and Christ's confirmation of their view:
Luke 24:36-39 KJV
The disciples think they are seeing "a ghost" and they are frightened. The reason they are frightened is that their understanding of a man is that he is body and spirit. They think the Lord is dead, thus they must be seeing His spirit. The Lord confirms that view by saying, "...a spirit does not have flesh and bone."
Because the spirit, if it is just a spirit, has departed from its body.
Again, a person that has departed from the body can still be properly called "a soul," because the spirit is still "the person."
I don't see how a spirit being separated from his body could be considered not to be literal.
"Thoughts and intents" are given to show a closer tie between two things many would consider to be identical. Are not the intents of a man his thoughts? Intent is formed in the thoughts before it becomes an action (if it ever does). Even if it doesn't become an action it is still within the man's thoughts.
Be glad to, and I will again post what I posted earlier in the thread, and I will remove the BBCode:
Both men and animals are called souls. Neither are said to possess souls. Biblical usage of soul primarily speaks of "the person" or persons. You will probably understand most passages better with that understanding. For example, one of the most abused passages used by the L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) is the following:
Ezekiel 18:4; 20-23 KJV
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls h5315 are mine; as the soul h5315 of the father, so also the soul h5315 of the son is mine: the soul h5315 that sinneth, it shall die.
20 The soul h5315 that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
If "soul" is an immaterial of man's make-up, then here we see a proof text for eternal damnation of the "immaterial man." However, the context is plainly temporal. In view is keeping the Law.
If we conclude this has reference to eternal judgment, rather than the penalty the Law did in fact carry—physical death—then we must equally conclude that men can receive eternal life through keeping the Law.
See the problem there?
Okay, going to add to this a little, to clarify: Ezekiel 18 has a strictly temporal context. While it is true that there can be applied an eternal context in regards to eternal judgment, the death in view here is not spiritual, it is physical. That is the penalty under Law for breaking the Law.
We know that whether a man keeps the Law or does not is in view based on the description of what those who breaking the Law are doing:
Ezekiel 18 KJV
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5 But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,
6 And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his neighbour's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman,
7 And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread to the hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment;
8 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man,
Note that justification is found in keeping the Law, just as it is in Romans 2 (by the way, would love to have you join "Temporal Justification").
Note that if a man doesn't do the things that are in violation of the Law (vv.6-8) he will be just.
Now note that if he ...
9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.
Again, we can apply an eternal context in the broader sense, but the direct context is temporal, and speaks of whether men will live or die physically. Again, that was the penalty for sin under the Law. This is why Christ was crucified, falsely accused of violating the Law.
Those who are dogmatic that a "soul" is the immaterial aspect of man impose eternal judgment into the text.
"Soul sleep" hinges on that understanding. Because they improperly define what texts speaking about a "soul" being in the grave means.
Continued...