Trinity or no trinity?

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

32. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33. The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

SON of God is what He claimed. The JEWS said that He was saying that He was God. NOT HIM.

Try again.

God Bless

You're understanding of this passage is not correct. The Jews understood what Jesus meant: "I and my Father are one." That is why they took up stones to stone him. He had committed blasphemy. He claimed to be God. That was the very reason that they were going to kill him, not that He claimed to be the Son of God, but God Himself, and they knew it.
His claim was: I and my Father are one, i.e., one in essence, the same being. He claimed to be God.
DHK </font>

Ok, we all see what DHK says that Jesus said, what does the BIBLE say that Jesus said?

John 10: 36. Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Who are you going to believe?

I'm going with the Bible!

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

hrhema,

EXCELLENT points!

Absolute TRUTH!

Beautifully Simple, Simply Beautiful!

God Bless

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

Phil 2: 5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Seems to me that I am SUPPOSED to have the SAME MIND as Christ. Who DIDN'T think that it was BLASPHEMOUS to be equal with God.

Even in His humanity He was God, and equal to God. This is an argument for His deity. Why stop at verse six? Look at the following verses:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Worship is due only to God. Every knee shall bow to God. Every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord--the Lord God.

Also, could you please show WHERE all of what you said is in the Bible? You posted 2 verses in that whole paragraph and then a bunch of your own personal judgment. What I would be greatly interested in, is seeing WHERE in the Bible you get your ideas.

A few verses? God does not change!

(Mal 3:6 KJV) For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Heb.13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Hebrews 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

You are totally right, and unless you would care to show otherwise, no one will BE saved and receive eternal life until JESUS comes back and awakes all the dead saints and changes all the living ones.

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
I don't have to wait for the coming of Christ. I have salvation now. I have eternal life now (John 10:27-30). He has given me eternal life. He is not a liar. I am sorry that you do not believe God's Word. "I give unto them eternal life." That is present tense not future.

God never had a beginning.

Right you are!

Christ never had a beginning.

Prove it.

I just did. Christ is God. Therefore He never had a beginning. "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." (John 1:1)
John 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us."
The Word is God...made flesh, thus is Christ. Christ is God.

1Tim.3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
--God (Christ) was manifest in the flesh.

To say that He did is blasphemous

Prove that too.
I just did. To say that Christ is not God is blasphemous. Read again John 10:30-33

Is Jesus Christ God?
Just give a yes or no answer. Do not give a conditional answer.

How could I give a conditional answer?
The reason you cannot is that you do not know the Jesus Christ of the Bible. You know a false Christ, and unless you change your views of who Christ is, you will be forever doomed.

Concerned,
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Ok, we all see what DHK says that Jesus said, what does the BIBLE say that Jesus said?

John 10: 36. Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Who are you going to believe?

I'm going with the Bible!

God Bless [/QB]

Then what does the Bible say?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

This was the real charge of blasphemy first stated: that thou being a man makest thyself God. They knew exactly what He meant. Don't you?
DHK

 

[Armando]

Let me add my two cents:

1) Jesus has to be God. Why? In order for someone to redeem the world, this someone, has to offer a COMPLETE and perfect sacrifice for all mankind sins (yesterday, today and tomorrow). The only sacrifice acceptable to God was a sacrificie coming from someone with "free will" to reject sin (true Man) but also someone infinitely good (true God, in order to infinitely pay mankind debt). And only this adjetive applies to God, He is infinitely good, merciful, just, etc. Any other creature can not be infinitely something, because at one point creatures were created.

2) If someone offends you, you are the only that can forgive the offense. If I offend you, I have to ask you for forgiveness. Now, if someone offends God, God is the only one that can forgive the offense. This is why the pharisees want Him dead.

Lc 5,21 Jesus forgive sins and questioned by the pharisees. "How can forive but only God"

Jn 5,18 "...making Himself equal to God"

Col 2,6-9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily"


3) Prophet Isaiah beleived Jesus was God

Is 7,14 Emmanuel = God with us
Is 9,5 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father , The Prince of Peace.


4) His disciples and others workshipped Him
Mt 28: 16-17, Mt 28: 8-9, Lc 24:52


5) God = I Am (Ex 3,14)
Jesus= I Am (Jn 8,24 Jn 8,28 Jn 8,58)
the Word was God (jn 1,1)

6) Mat 5,29 Jesus has the authority to expand and complement on the Law giving directly to Moses

And there are a lot more texts that can demonstrate the Jesus and The Father are used interchangeably, same thing for the Holy Spirit.

But, I guess, the question is this what do you want to beleive?

Personally, I think, I arrived 2000 years a little bit too late, so I will study what the disciples of the apostles beleived. And so far, they beleived in the Trinity.

Thanks
Armando

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Ok, we all see what DHK says that Jesus said, what does the BIBLE say that Jesus said?

John 10: 36. Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Who are you going to believe?

I'm going with the Bible!

God Bless

Then what does the Bible say?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

This was the real charge of blasphemy first stated: that thou being a man makest thyself God. They knew exactly what He meant. Don't you?
DHK [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, I know exactly what He meant because HE SAID EXACTLY WHAT HE MEANT!!!!!!!!!!

You are wrong.

Demonstrably.

Jesus SAID:
'I am the SON OF GOD' in response to the accusation that He was saying that He WAS God.

He answered the question FOR ME.

You asked if Jesus is God....

Jesus said. "I am the SON of God"

You can't get around this DHK. So quit tryin'

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Armando,

What you just stated sounds more like the Oneness doctrine than the trinity.

God Bless

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Helen: As I already said that phrase about begotten is from the Nicene Creed, not the Bible. Please use Bible verses to support your beliefs and show me how begotten denotes a beginning.

Are you stating that begotten doesn't mean begotten when it pertains to Christ? As far as I can see, that is eisigesis, and not a valid statement. The Bible makes no statement that when Jesus is called begotten that it means anything other than 'begotten'. Just like all the so and so begat so and so in the Lineage books. Do you really want me to show you all the places in there that state that 'begotten' denotes the beginning of ALL those people?</font>[/QUOTE]Well, I think you know that the other uses of 'begat' can't mean exactly the same as in Jesus' case since the other uses refer to human offspring of human parents.

If you agree with the Creed that Jesus was begotten 'before all worlds' then you are not talking about a human parent having a human child, obviously and this begetting had nothing to do with 'flesh'. If you are thinking Jesus was begotten when he was incarnated, then that would be a lot closer to the other uses of begat, except Jesus didn't have a human father, so it's still not the same.

And THAT is exactly MY point. The Word WAS God. After CAREFUL study and exegesis (because I was not looking to learn this when I was studying, I was trying to PROVE the trinity in my study) I came to the conclusion that the Word was IN God, and HAD NOT proceeded forth from Him, until God SPOKE (the Word).

But, being 'in God' is not the same as being God.

Ok, so then what do you do with all the verses that state that God and Jesus are separate and distinct?

I can't think of one verse that says God and Jesus are separate and distinct.

The Father is the Most High God. Jesus is NOT the Most High God. He is the SON of the Most High God. The point of that verse is that AGAIN Jesus calls HIMSELF the SON of God. NOT GOD.

I realize I was wrong to presuppose you didn't believe Jesus is God, last week.

Nevertheless, what is the difference between your statement just above, of "Jesus is NOT the Most High God" and "Jesus is not God".

It seems to me they are the same unless you have a belief that there are two Gods - the Most High God and God. If God is The Most High God, then what you just wrote is equivalent to "Jesus is not God".

So while my presupposition was unwarranted it seems to be turning out to be correct after all.

Were you here when the 'One verse wonders' thread was going on?

I've been registered for a while but I wasn't here much in the last few months, until the last week or two. If it was before that I didn't see it. If that was the name of the thread I think I must have missed it.

Jesus is not omniscient. He doesn't know when He is coming back.

I think Jesus does know now. He didn't know when he made that statement, about 2000 years ago, on earth.

Jesus is not 'God'.

Oh, ok. Now you did say Jesus is not 'God'. So much for the outrage at my saying you believed that a week or two ago, then.

Therefore, there is no problem with There being ONE God, and ONE Son of God. They are not 'both' God(s).
It is the Trinity that makes 3 Gods. GOD the Father (that's ONE) GOD the Son (that's TWO) and GOD the Holy Spirit (that's THREE). That is trithiesm, a form of polythiesm.

It's not because there's only one God. You know that Trinitarians don't believe the three persons are separate and distinct, so why do you insist we are polytheists when we are not?

Helen/AITB

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

You asked if Jesus is God....

Jesus said. "I am the SON of God"

You can't get around this DHK. So quit tryin'

God Bless

No.
Jesus said: "I and my Father are one" verse 30.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

Why are you taking His word out of context. The first thing that they accused Him of, after He equated Himself with God, was blasphemy because, He, being a man, had made Himself a man. Confine yourself to those four verses and you will understand the meaning. (verses 30-33)

 

[DHK]

"THERE IS ONE GOD" 1 Corinthians 8:6

GOD ..... YAHWEH IS JESUS .... JESUS IS

Genesis 1:1 John 1:1-3

Job 33:4 CREATOR Colossians 1:12-17

Isaiah 40:28 Hebrews 1:8-12

Isaiah 41:4 FIRST Revelation 1:17

Isaiah 44:6 & Revelation 2:8

Isaiah 48:12 LAST Revelation 22:13

Exodus 3:13,14 John 8:24,58

Deuteronomy 32:39 I AM John 13:19

Isaiah 43:10 (EGO EIMI) John 18:5

Genesis 18:25 2 Timothy 4:1

Psalm 96:13 JUDGE 2 Corinthians 5:10

Joel 3:12 Romans 14:10-12

Psalm 47 Matthew 2:1-6

Isaiah 44:6-8 KING John 19:21

Jeremiah 10:10 1 Timothy 6:13-16

Psalm 27:1 John 1:9

Isaiah 60:20 LIGHT John 8:12

Psalm 106:21 John 4:42

Isaiah 43:3,11 SAVIOUR Acts 4:10-12

Isaiah 45:21-23 1 John 4:14

Psalm 23 John 10:11

Psalm 100:3 SHEPHERD Hebrews 13:20

Isaiah 40:11 1 Peter 5:4


The teaching on the person of Jesus Christ from the Scripture is very clear. He was fully God and at the same time fully man. Any deviation from this position is not only unscriptural, it is also heretical. Those who attempt to make Jesus something less than God cannot go to the Bible for their justification. Therefore, if one takes the Bible seriously, one must Conclude that Jesus of Nazareth was God in human flesh.
(from Josh McDowell, "Today's Religions)
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by AITB:
Well, I think you know that the other uses of 'begat' can't mean exactly the same as in Jesus' case since the other uses refer to human offspring of human parents.

Ok, so then YES you do think of the word 'begotten' differently when referring to Jesus. Good. So do I. That is WHY I believe that Jesus is NOT as old as God. Because He was begotten BEFORE He was physically begotten in a woman.

If you agree with the Creed that Jesus was begotten 'before all worlds' then you are not talking about a human parent having a human child, obviously and this begetting had nothing to do with 'flesh'. If you are thinking Jesus was begotten when he was incarnated, then that would be a lot closer to the other uses of begat, except Jesus didn't have a human father, so it's still not the same.

No, I don't think that His beginning was in Mary. That is very illogical. And based on the rest of scripture wholly impossible.

But, being 'in God' is not the same as being God.

Exactly. Before God spoke and the Word proceeded forth from the Father, He was still IN God. NOT a separate and distinct person. Like with children. It is even noted in the Bible that Isaiac took part in the covenant that Abraham because Isaic was 'in his fathers loins'. Jesus was 'in His Father' before He proceeded forth from Him. It was THEN that He was begotten, when God SPOKE and the Word proceeded forth from the Father. NOW, He is the Word incarnate, the Word made flesh, the Image of the invisible God. That is why it says WAS God, not IS God.
I challenge you, if you truly believe that is what that verse means to find that statement in the Bible elsewhere. That the Word IS God.

I can't think of one verse that says God and Jesus are separate and distinct.

If you are trying to insinuate that I meant that there is a verse or verses that ACTUALLY say 'God and Jesus are separate and distinct', you are AGAIN being antagonistic. But if you aren't (I'm willing to give you the benifit of the doubt) I will entertain your request and do your homework for you.
1 Thess 3:11. Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.12. And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: 13. To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
2 Thess 2: 13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 16. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17. Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
1 Timothy 1:1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 2. Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Titus 1:1. Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 3. But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; 4. To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
John 20:28. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.29. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:31. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Acts 7:55. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,56. And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58. And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Rom 8:35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Cor 8:6. But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
2 Cor 13:14. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
Col 1:10. That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11. Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; 12. Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Mal 2:10. Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
Mark 12:29. And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
John 8: 42. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Rom 3: 29. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

I think Jesus does know now. He didn't know when he made that statement, about 2000 years ago, on earth.

That's funny because I thought you believed that Jesus was the SAME yesterday, today and forever. If He DID NOT KNOW something, and NOW He does, then HE HAS CHANGED. hmmmm

It's not because there's only one God. You know that Trinitarians don't believe the three persons are separate and distinct, so why do you insist we are polytheists when we are not?

I know? Actually what I have always been taught, and I have been Baptist, Catholic, Breathren Pentecostal, Independent Fundamental Baptist, and Non Denominational, is that WITHIN the Trinity of the "one God" are THREE distinct, individual PERSONS who MAKE UP the ONE God.

THAT is THREE GODS!

It is even IN the statement of faith of EVERY denomination that believes the trinity.

GOD the Father, GOD the Son, GOD the Holy Spirit.

THAT is THREE GodS.

God Bless

 

[neal4christ]

Man and wife are one but that does not make them equal,

I disagree with this statement. Woman was created as a helper comparable or suitable for man. They were both created in God's image. However, they do have different roles. And the marriage idea, yes they are still two persons, but they are one essence and are now united. They are two distinct persons, but they are now one union. I think if people thought a little more about that before they got married and while they are married, there would be far less divorces in the church.

Also, check out Micah 5:2 for Christ's eternality. And what of Romans 9:5?

"Of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen." Rom. 9:5, NKJV

And Phil. 2:6?

"Who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God." Phil. 2:6, NKJV

The word translated 'being' denotes the continuing essence of a person's nature, and 'form' denotes the essential, unchanging character of something. Also, 'equal' defines something that is exactly the same in every aspect. And in verses 10 and 11 of this chapter, why would every knee bow and tounge confess the Jesus Christ is Lord if He is not God? Isn't that idolatry? Why would God not get the focus but rather someone created?

And what do you do with John 1:1? Romans 10:9 (the Lord Jesus)? I think that the idea of the trinity is much more than just made up, there is good support for it.

I also find it silly when someone thinks that have God all figured out. If you do, you don't need Him. I don't understand all the intricate workings of the Trinity, but I think it is clear from Scripture that the notion is there.

Neal

[ March 27, 2003, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]

 

[AITB]

3AM,

I appreciate the time you've put into explaining what you believe and don't believe, regarding the nature of God and the doctrine of the Trinity - thanks!

Helen/AITB

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Armando,

What you just stated sounds more like the Oneness doctrine than the trinity.

God Bless

3AM, I thought the same thing.

When he ended it with the apostles believed in the Trinity, I had to take a second look.

Maybe he really sees the 'Oneness' of God and doesn't see what he sees.

MEE

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Man and wife are one but that does not make them equal,

I disagree with this statement. Woman was created as a helper comparable or suitable for man. They were both created in God's image. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not trying to instigate anything here, but women ARE subordinate to men. IF they are married. We are to be in submission to our husbands, and our husbands are to honor us AS the weaker vessel. This is just Bible Neal. Don't let the womens rights movement infiltrate your mind. We ARE NOT equal. I don't have a problem with this because it is the Will of God in Christ Jesus concerning me. I am submitted to that Will.

However, they do have different roles. And the marriage idea, yes they are still two persons, but they are one essence and are now united. They are two distinct persons, but they are now one union. I think if people thought a little more about that before they got married and while they are married, there would be far less divorces in the church.

Do you see the Godhead that way? That they are 3 distinct persons but are of one essense?

Also, check out Micah 5:2 for Christ's eternality.

WOW. I'm glad you pointed that verse out. Let's not look at it. I don't think anyone here wants to know what that verse says. It DOES NOT say that Jesus has always been. hrhema might want to know though. hmmmm. If you want to know hrhema let me know.

And what of Romans 9:5?
"Of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen." Rom. 9:5, NKJV

You've got to be kidding me. What do you think this verse is saying? MINE says something COMPLETELY different. IN two versions it says something different.
King James
Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
American Standard
Romans 9:5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Now let's look at the statement that in the NKJV says:

'who is over all, the eternally blessed God'.

KJV and AS are the same in that statement.

"who is over all"

The difference is this:

"God blessed for ever"

There is a HUGE difference in what each of those states! ONE is from the original, the other is a CLEAR mistranslation of the text.

HERE is what the original says:

|2316| God
|2128| blessed
|1519| to
|3588| the
|0165| ages.

SO in the NKJV they are taking a FAR stretch of the original to get 'the eternally blessed God'!

In the KJV and AS we see a statement. If we take out the statement 'is over all' and read what it is REALLY saying:

Christ [as concerning the flesh] WHO [is over all] God blessed forever.

NOW:

Christ who God blessed forever

It is interesting that the NKJV contorted that verse to say something that it CLEARLY does NOT say.

And Phil. 2:6? "Who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God." Phil. 2:6, NKJV

- King James
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
- American Standard
who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
-Literal Original
|3739| who
|1722| in
|9999| {the}
|3444| form
|2316| of God
|5225| subsisting,
|3756| not
|0725| robbery
|2233| thought
|9999| {it}
|1511| to be
|2470| equal
|2316| with God,

We see a general clarity on this verse by comparison, that Jesus was IN THE FORM of God. It does not say that Jesus IS God.

The word translated 'being' denotes the continuing essence of a person's nature, and 'form' denotes the essential, unchanging character of something.

"huparcho"
to begin under (quietly), i.e. come into existence (be present or at hand); expletively, to exist (as copula or subordinate to an adjective, participle, adverb or preposition, or as auxil. to principal (verb):

SOOOO, if we look at the construct of that sentence we will see that the word that is translated 'being' is supported by the preposition 'in the form of' and therefore takes the meaning 'to exist'. So the AS version is more accurate than the KJV (surprise surprise).

What I found most interesting is that the word that is translated 'form' in all four examples is this:
"morphe"
(through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; figuratively, nature:
Interesting that the english equivalent to this word is 'morph' which means 'to be transformed into the shape or image'. Which TOTALLY AGREES with THIS:
Col 1: 15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
2 Cor 4: 4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Hebrews 1: 3. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4. Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Also, 'equal' defines something that is exactly the same in every aspect.

"isos"
(through the idea of seeming); similar (in amount and kind):

What this verse's meaning REALLY comes down to is the WAY in which Jesus considered Himself equal to God. Using scripture to interpret scripture we see that the WAY that He considered Himself equal was this:

Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal [isos] with God.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Interesting that Jesus did not see them as 'equal' on EVERY aspect. The Father judges NO man, but Jesus is the judge of all. hmmm

And in verses 10 and 11 of this chapter, why would every knee bow and tounge confess the Jesus Christ is Lord if He is not God? Isn't that idolatry? Why would God not get the focus but rather someone created?

Well firstly you have a false premise here. I am not saying that Jesus is 'created'. I am saying that He proceeded forth FROM God.
As to v 10 and 11 go there is NO problem with people bowing the knee and confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord. HE IS!! There is NO problem in worshipping Jesus because HE is the Image of the Invisible God, the Son of God, whom ALL power has been given to by God. Judgment has been given to Him. He has the preeminence over all creation. Why? Because He was the FIRST BORN of all creation AND the First fruit of the DEAD. So in LIFE He was first, and in being raised from death He is the first. He is the FIRST of everything.

And what do you do with John 1:1?

What do I do with it? Read it!

I believe that it says EXACTLY what it says. In the beginning (of what? hmmm?) was the WORD, and the WORD was WITH God, and WAS God.(not IS God) He is no longer 'in' God. He proceeded forth from God, 'in the beginning' when God SPOKE. Same in the beginning that Moses penned telling us WHEN the Word proceeded forth from God. Prior to there being any physical 'lights' God said "let there be light" and the LIGHT that He 'let' out was the Light of men, and the Life of ALL things. It was Jesus.

Romans 10:9 (the Lord Jesus)?

That's not all it says though is it Neal?
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Firstly, "Lord" there is 'kurios' which is a title of authority, SUPREME authority. What did JESUS say He had????
Matt 28:18. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
It is ALSO necessary to believe that GOD raised Him from the dead. Did He raise HIMSELF????

I think that the idea of the trinity is much more than just made up, there is good support for it.

Sadly, there is much support for many of the false doctrines that have infiltrated the church. Very sad. There is 'ample' support according to Ben that you go right to heaven when you die. He used the accounts of Enoch, Elijah, and Moses (and of course the all encompasing parable of the rich man and lazarus) to say that we will ALL go right to heaven when we die. NOW, you probably believe that you will. SO does MORE THAN half of Christiandom. Would you say that 2 translations, a resurrection and a parable are solid enough to prove something that over 85 other verses disagree with?

Seriously, I know that has nothing to do with the trinity per se but the logic behind it is the same. You have a doctrine here that you, and many others, for some strange reason seem to think that you MUST believe in (wonder who told you that) and you have like 4 verses to back it up.

Whereas I have read almost 400 verses that say that either God is God, or the Father is God and that Jesus Christ, the Word, is the SON of God, and that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God or the Spirit of Christ.

So we have trinitarians saying:

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

And the Bible saying

1 Cor 8:6. But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

And HOW are we in Them?

1 Cor 12:13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

I also find it silly when someone thinks that have God all figured out.

So do I!! That is HOW I came upon this truth, because I DO NOT think I have it all figured out. Do you? If you think you do then you DON'T and the truth is trying to find you, but you must be open to it.

If you do, you don't need Him.

Praise God! I do NOT know everything, nor do I ever for even one second think that I have Him all figured out. But I DO know what He has shown me, and what He has shown me is what the 1 Cor verses I just quoted say. NOT a trinity.

I don't understand all the intricate workings of the Trinity, but I think it is clear from Scripture that the notion is there.

It is clear that a false doctrine has been able to be shown to you by twisting and contorting scripture until there is no semblance of the truth left.

You are willing to believe something on the basis of a notion? Wouldn't you rather believe something that is SO STRONGLY founded in scripture that there is NO way that it can be refuted? Something that is restated and told over and over and believed by EVERY Apostle, who btw SAW Jesus in the flesh? Something that was the general belief until the CC took control of the masses!

If you TRULY believe in the trinity then PLEASE show me with so much proof that it will be SO obvious beyond any shadow of a doubt that flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but the Word of God, and I will believe.

God Bless
Kelly

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by MEE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Armando,

What you just stated sounds more like the Oneness doctrine than the trinity.

God Bless

3AM, I thought the same thing.

When he ended it with the apostles believed in the Trinity, I had to take a second look.

Maybe he really sees the 'Oneness' of God and doesn't see what he sees.

MEE

</font>[/QUOTE]It's amazing huh. His tone seemed very soft hearted, it is very likely that God is showing him truth, and he just doesn't know what to call it!

God Bless

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

Also, check out Micah 5:2 for Christ's eternality.

[QB]

WOW. I'm glad you pointed that verse out. Let's not look at it. I don't think anyone here wants to know what that verse says. It DOES NOT say that Jesus has always been. hrhema might want to know though. hmmmm. If you want to know hrhema let me know.

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
--the phrase means from all eternity; from the days of everlasting. It refers to the eternality of the Messiah; the One who had no beginning, and has no end--eternal throughout the ages.

And what of Romans 9:5?
"Of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen." Rom. 9:5, NKJV

You've got to be kidding me. What do you think this verse is saying? MINE says something COMPLETELY different. IN two versions it says something different.
King James
Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
American Standard
Romans 9:5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Now let's look at the statement that in the NKJV says:

'who is over all, the eternally blessed God'.

KJV and AS are the same in that statement.

"who is over all"

The difference is this:

"God blessed for ever"

There is a HUGE difference in what each of those states! ONE is from the original, the other is a CLEAR mistranslation of the text.

HERE is what the original says:

|2316| God
|2128| blessed
|1519| to
|3588| the
|0165| ages.

SO in the NKJV they are taking a FAR stretch of the original to get 'the eternally blessed God'!

In the KJV and AS we see a statement. If we take out the statement 'is over all' and read what it is REALLY saying:

Christ [as concerning the flesh] WHO [is over all] God blessed forever.

NOW:

Christ who God blessed forever

It is interesting that the NKJV contorted that verse to say something that it CLEARLY does NOT say.

Here is something for you to ponder and sink your teeth into:

5. Whose are the fathers--here, probably, the three great fathers of the covenant--Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob--by whom God condescended to name
Himself (Ex 8:6,13).
and--most exalted privilege of all, and as such, reserved to the last.
of whom as concerning the flesh--(See on Cmt. on Ro 1:3).
Christ came--or, "is Christ"
who is over all, God--rather, "God over all."
blessed for ever. Amen--To get rid of the bright testimony here borne to the supreme divinity of Christ, various expedients have been adopted:
(1) To place a period, either after the words "concerning the flesh Christ came," rendering the next clause as a doxology to the Father--"God who is over all be blessed for ever"; or after the word "all"--thus, "Christ came, who is over all: God be blessed.", &c. [ERASMUS, LOCKE, FRITZSCHE, MEYER, JOWETT, &c.]. But it is fatal to this view, as even Socinus admits, that in other Scripture doxologies the word "Blessed" precedes the name of God on whom the blessing is invoked (thus:"Blessed be God," Ps 68:35; "Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel," Ps 72:18). Besides, any such doxology here would be "unmeaning and frigid in the extreme"; the sad subject on which he was entering suggesting anything but a doxology, even in connection with Christ's Incarnation [ALFORD].

(2) To transpose the words rendered "who is"; in which case the rendering would be, "whose (that is, the fathers') is Christ according to the flesh" [CRELLIUS, WHISTON, TAYLOR, WHITBY]. But this is a desperate expedient, in the face of all manuscript authority; as is also the conjecture of GROTIUS and others, that the word "God" should be omitted from the text. It remains then, that we have here no doxology at all, but a naked statement of fact, that while Christ is "of" the
Israelitish nation "as concerning the flesh," He is, in another respect, "God over all, blessed for ever." (In 2Co 11:31 the very Greek phrase which is here rendered "who is," is used in the same sense; and compare Ro 1:25, Greek). In this view of the passage, as a testimony to the supreme divinity of Christ, besides all the orthodox fathers, some of the ablest modern critics concur [BENGEL, THOLUCK, STUART, OLSHAUSEN, PHILIPPI, ALFORD, &c.]
(Jamieson, Faucett, and Brown)
DHK

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

And Phil. 2:6? "Who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God." Phil. 2:6, NKJV
- King James
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
- American Standard
who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
-Literal Original
|3739| who
|1722| in
|9999| {the}
|3444| form
|2316| of God
|5225| subsisting,
|3756| not
|0725| robbery
|2233| thought
|9999| {it}
|1511| to be
|2470| equal
|2316| with God,

We see a general clarity on this verse by comparison, that Jesus was IN THE FORM of God. It does not say that Jesus IS God.

The word translated 'being' denotes the continuing essence of a person's nature, and 'form' denotes the essential, unchanging character of something.

"huparcho"
to begin under (quietly), i.e. come into existence (be present or at hand); expletively, to exist (as copula or subordinate to an adjective, participle, adverb or preposition, or as auxil. to principal (verb):

SOOOO, if we look at the construct of that sentence we will see that the word that is translated 'being' is supported by the preposition 'in the form of' and therefore takes the meaning 'to exist'. So the AS version is more accurate than the KJV (surprise surprise).

What I found most interesting is that the word that is translated 'form' in all four examples is this:
"morphe"
(through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; figuratively, nature:
Interesting that the english equivalent to this word is 'morph' which means 'to be transformed into the shape or image'.</font>

Phil.2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Behold here the greatest example of humility, of lowliness and abasement, that ever the world was acquainted with: the mighty God became less than
man!
To make a due estimate hereof we must first observe, What Christ was before his incarnation and humiliation, namely, the great and mighty God:
for, says the apostle, he was in the form of God, and equal with God; that is, being the substantial form, and essential image of the Father, enjoying
the divine nature, with all its glory, and all the ensigns of majesty which God himself had eternally and invariably. As to be in the form of a servant,
signifies that he was a servant; so to be in the form of God, signifies that he was God.
(Burkitt)
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

DHK,

Were you actually planning to make a point, or just quote other people's commentaries?

Sheesh

 

[neal4christ]

I'm not trying to instigate anything here, but women ARE subordinate to men. IF they are married. We are to be in submission to our husbands, and our husbands are to honor us AS the weaker vessel. This is just Bible Neal. Don't let the womens rights movement infiltrate your mind. We ARE NOT equal.

First off, don't take this the wrong way, but DUH! Subordinate has nothing to do with being equal. I agree that there are ROLES for each. However, both are created in the image of God. Christ died for both. That is Bible, 3AM. So both are equal in that sense. I am extremely conservative and very against the women rights movement. That is the first time I have ever been accused of letting them infiltrate my mind!

It DOES NOT say that Jesus has always been.

Please show me why not.

Well firstly you have a false premise here. I am not saying that Jesus is 'created'. I am saying that He proceeded forth FROM God.

Sorry, good try. If He is not God, these verses encourage idolatry. Remember, we are to have no other Gods besides Yahweh.

If you TRULY believe in the trinity then PLEASE show me with so much proof that it will be SO obvious beyond any shadow of a doubt that flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but the Word of God, and I will believe.

Sorry, that is not my job. I don't have time for a deep theological discussion with you. God's Holy Spirit will have to reveal that to you. God is my Savior. Jesus Christ is my Savior. Jesus Christ is God, and I am truly sorry that you have a problem with that.

Regarding knowing everything, I addressed it in my last post. I do not know everything, I readily admit it. However, no matter what I would say to you, I would automatically be wrong because you have everything figured out. You tell me I should keep the sabbath on Saturday. You say eternal punishment is annihilation. You say Jesus is Michael (and you talk about the Trinity having a lack of Biblical support!). You say the lake of fire will go out. You say the Trinity is non-existent. I am not going to change your mind, and you probably won't change mine. One day when I have time, maybe I will sit down and address the whole Trinity issue. Schoolwork and my wife take precedence right now. However, I do believe in the Trinity and I see it clearly in Scripture. You do not. There is not much I can do about that. Sorry. I could go point by point and address your response, but I am not. Call me a chicken or whatever. I don't have the time or energy. I would see myself as right, and you would explain away anything I give you. And that would be about as far as we would get, so I am not going to use up my time for that right now. Take care.

Neal

[ March 28, 2003, 04:39 AM: Message edited by: neal4christ ]