Trinity revisited!

[3AngelsMom]

Trinity or no trinity?

Continuation of other thread....

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
What are you talking about?

I am talking about the WORDS ('have been') that the KJV translators ADDED to the text 'for clarity', that makes it say something that the original does not.

Actually, right off the bat, I know the ESV, NIV, and HCSB all agree with the NKJV. So it is not alone. I have been looking at the literal words myself and the context of the passage and tend to agree with their renderings.

Of course you do. You want it to say that. My rendering is based on the original Hebrew, and the Stongs definitions. Nothing else. You don't have to be a scholar to figure out that they added words.

Ha, ha! No, I just look at ALL the verses and take them together, not separately.

No you don't! You are ignoring 400 verses that show that God is not Jesus, but Lord. You are NOT taking them all together. Do a search for verses with the words 'Father', 'God', 'Lord' and 'Jesus' in them.

I don't ignore ETERNAL punishment and that there is ETERNAL fire as well as there are some BEING held under punishment now.

Who's words are those that you are 'not ignoring'? Because my Bible doesn't say that there are ANY people being held under punishment NOW. What about the 'whole' Bible when it comes to all the verses that say things like 'utterly consumed' and 'utterly destroyed'? Do you just ignore those, or is there some new fangled way of making them 'fit' with your doctrine?

As for your OUT RIGHT support, I am looking at the support for Christ being God right now. It is much more than three verses. When I am through with my own study I will post them so you will have much more to go through. But for now, CHILL OUT. I can read lowercase letters as well as uppercase.

So then why are you writing in upper case? I use uppercase to show emphasis. It is quicker than putting it in bold. I can't wait to see all your proofs, because for the past 2 months I have read and re read all the verses that have 'God', 'Father', 'Lord' and 'Jesus' in them, and I have YET to encounter even ONE that states that Jesus is the Most High God. NOT EVEN ONE.

Again, you put words in my mouth. I don't care if you think I am wacky, I gave you what the Bible literally says. I can't help it if you don't like it because it doesn't fit what you believe.

What words have I put in your mouth? Did you NOT say that there are people UNDER PUNISHMENT NOW???? Come one Neal, you said it in the other thread, and you have said it here!

Oh, I read your posts. I am just stating the only logical option you have. You want to have your cake and eat it too. Sorry, you can't. There is no middle ground. Either Christ is God Most High or He is created. Take your choice.

You are wrong Neal, demonstrably wrong. Jesus does not HAVE TO BE GOD, for ANYTHING to be possible. Why is it that the Bible says that there is ONE God, the Father and ONE Lord Jesus Christ, if JESUS is that ONE GOD? I AGAIN, have never said, nor do I believe that He is just another creature of God. He proceeded forth from God. I am a creature of God. I did not proceed forth from God. There is a difference. And I don't even like cake.

Better rethink your position. I have already shown you my ontological and economical view of God. Quite simple, actually.

Those charts made NO sense of what you believe! They have only confused me more. I have NO intention of rethinking my position unless GOD shows me that I should. I KNOW Who I am believing in. All of what you and DHK have explained is just have a 'mystery'.

So who is He? A mere special man? What are you other options if He is not God?

I have ALSO stated that! Do you not read the Bible? I mean, if I didn't know any better I would think that you didn't! Jesus is Lord. He is the Son of the Living God. The express Image of God. The Word of God, that proceeded forth from God. ALL of that is in the BIBLE.

Give me a break. I don't deny the verses you post. The Father and Son have different roles, but are the same being or essence. There are many more than three, you really haven't studied trinitarian doctrine if you think that is all there is. I will get back to you on this when I finish my own study. But what if there were only three? Those are pretty clear. Do you just ignore it, pretend God didn't inspire those as well?

Well, let's see, I studied the BIBLE instead of a 'doctrine', so that my judgment of the Scriptures would not be tainted by MAN. Wouldn't you say that is the WISER thing to do? If I told you that I was seeking GOD, would you tell me to go to the BIBLE, or to man's doctrines? I have no intention of trying to make sense of the trinity. I have not ignored anything. I have weighed all the verses that pertain to this subject against the WHOLE of scripture. If the Bible says that there is ONE God, and that it is the FATHER, and ONE Lord, and that it is Jesus, I am not going to run around telling people that the ONE GOD is Jesus! It didn't say that!

Because your stance is not on the Bible alone.

Ok, smarty pants, then what ELSE is it based on?

You ignore Scriptures to the contrary of what you believe and don't take it as a whole. Just like with annihilation, punishment, sabbath, etc.

That is too funny to even express in words. Let's see, God, in His infinite wisdom inspired men to write His Word. In it you find COUNTLESS mentions of the Sabbath, and commands to keep it holy, and people keeping it, and people being warned that if they don't they will....and here we go into the punishment 'consumed together'. Then of course YOU have the idea that people will go RIGHT to heaven when they die, even though there is NO support for that, and you tell ME that I am ignoring verses??? I'm not trying to be overly pius here Neal, but of all the people that I have encountered here, I am one of the only people that actually DOES consider the WHOLE bible in their study. To have you accuse me of that is about as funny as my accusation that you were going to start going to tree hugger meetings!

God Bless (continued in next post)

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Neal4Christ

Huh? Only God Most High is King of kings and Lord of lords. Think of what you just said.

Uh, you are so wrong, it is silly. If that is the case we need to throw out Revelation, and all of John's books for that matter, because he is a LIAR.

Can someone other than God be the ultimate ruler? Does that make any sense whatsoever?

Uh, YEAH! Since the BIBLE says that ALL authority and Power has been GIVEN to Jesus BY God, and that God MADE Him Kok's, and Lol's, then YES, it is VERY possible for Jesus, who is the Son of God to be the Judge, and final authority for all creation. Because GOD gave it to Him!

If God is not King of kings and Lord of lords, He is not God.

Reference? Oh, wait, that would just be your logic again.

Just by being God He has to be the ultimate ruler. There can be no other, and He can't make anyone else to be because that would be against His nature, and you know God can't do something against His nature, don't you?

RIGHT, so then when the Bible says that ALL power was given to Jesus in Matt 28:18, which is the prophetic fulfillment of Daniel 7:13, they were just 'pretending'?

So what are we left with? Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. So guess what. Christ has to be the Most High God! That is the only thing that could explain this!

No, it isn't at ALL the only thing that can explain it. The Bible completely explains it, and the answer is NOT that Jesus is the Most High God. God, was Kok's and Lol's, UNTIL He passed that authority over to His Son. In heaven, when Jesus went to His Father, after Mary met Him at the tomb, and He told her not to touch Him, God gave Him all power over creation, because after being the firstborn of all creation, and NOW He was the firstfruit from the dead, He THEN had preeminence.

Think about the ramifications of your assertions!

Think about how rediculous you sound trying to say that God CAN'T do something!
He can do WHATEVER He wants to do, HE IS GOD!

Do you not read my posts???? Sheesh! I assert there is one God and one God only.

Ok, so tell me His Name. 'Trinity'? Is that your 'One God'? (and quit stealin' my word )

I have already explained my view from an ontological and economical standpoint. You are the one who has denied that Christ is God and yet say we should bow to Him and worship Him. I assert that Christ is the One Most High God.

Actually, it is the Bible that says that we will bow and worship Him. Jesus told us to worship the Father. He also told us to Worship 'Him' that made the heavens, and earth. SO, we are to worship both. I don't have a problem with that. I worship God, I worship the Lord Jesus. Sometimes even at the same time!

The problem with your faulty logic in reference to my beliefs is that you think that by worshipping Jesus, that I am worshipping ANOTHER God. You are wrong. I do not see Jesus as another God. I have ONE God. The SAME God, that Jesus has.

He is the ONE Lord, because His Father MADE Him the One Lord. They USED TO BE the same person, but then THE WORD proceeded forth FROM God. NOW there is 2 people. The Father, and the Son. NOT two Gods, but ONE God, and His Son Jesus Christ, the ONE Lord.
Ah, that clears it all up. If they were the same, why is Christ not God? Also, there is only one Lord, in the ultimate sense. God Most High!

Wrong. The Bible says that the One Lord, is Jesus. What do you do with that? How does that fit in your 'economy'? What I just wrote that you mocked, is a compilation of about 5 different texts. In the Bible. It isn't something that I just pulled out of my pocket and labelled as fact.

He can't make anyone other than Himself Lord over all because then He would not be it, and that is contrary to His nature!

MAN, why do you limit God?! WHERE does it say that He CAN'T make anyone Lord? You are WRONG! It exlicitly said that God GAVE HIM all authority. GOD DID.

If we deny the Father, we deny the Son, if we deny the Son, He will deny us before His Father.
Okay. And your point? I am not denying either. Are you?

Are you sure about that? In the trinity you have one 'God' that lumps together the 3 'persons' of the Godhead. What does that do with the Father? What does it do with the Son? DO you still HAVE a Father in that triangle? Do you still have a Son in there? What does it do with the literal Fatherhood, and Sonship of God and Jesus?

What does it do to the relationship between them, or are they just 3 'persons' who share the same essense, and have slightly different roles?

I think that the trinity DENIES the Father. It affords Jesus the status of Most High God, something that the Bible never does.

The Father is the Most High God.
The trinity is in effect USURPING the throne of God, and placing Jesus there.
The Bible says that Jesus is at the Right hand of the Father.

God Bless

 

[neal4christ]

Have fun, 3AM. I am through talking with you, I am only getting mad and you are getting caustic. Believe what you want.

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

I'm sorry Neal, I was getting mad too.

I need to take a breather anyway.

God Bless

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Trinity or no trinity?

Continuation of other thread....

Just one question - why did you start a new thread?

Helen/AITB

 

[3AngelsMom]

Helen,
Because the other one is getting really long, and it drags down the speed of the board when we let threads get long.

Badwidth monitor

That is my official title!

 

[Don]

Jesus is at the right hand of God; this we know for sure.

"I and my father are one"; this we know for sure.

"If you have seen me, you have seen the Father"; this we know for sure.

So explain some more, please? Is there no trinity because Jesus and God are the same, even though we know for a fact Jesus is at the right hand of God?

 

[AITB]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
Helen,
Because the other one is getting really long, and it drags down the speed of the board when we let threads get long.

Badwidth monitor

That is my official title!

Oh, ok. I didn't know that. Thanks!

Helen/AITB

 

[DHK]

1Tim.3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
--God manifest in the flesh. God from all eternity was manifest in the flesh. Christ is God.

3AM, If it was God, i.e., the Most High God (for there is only one God) that was manifest in the flesh, who was He? He was not just a manifestation in the sens that Oneness believes. The word means declared, revealed, or made known. God was made known to mankind through the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ, the eternal God, became man. And as John says, "we beheld his glory full of grace and truth." Who did he behold? Who did he see? God--full of grace and truth! The only one that has the fullness of grace and truth is God. No one else has the fullness of truth. Romans 3:4 declares that all men are liars. Only God is true. Therefore Christ is God, not a lesser God, but the Most High God. There is only one God. How do you explain these things?
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

Trinity or no Trinity?

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was WITH GOD and the Word WAS GOD".

Matt 28 "Baptize them IN THE NAME of the Father AND the Son AND the Holy Spirit".

God says "MY name and My glory I WILL NOT share with another"

So I am thinking "Trinity".

It only works one way.

Bob

 

[donnA]

I'm thinking someone has a bad attitude always calling people names, which I do believe is a board no-no.

 

[MEE]

Originally posted by DHK:
1Tim.3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
--God manifest in the flesh. God from all eternity was manifest in the flesh. Christ is God.

3AM, If it was God, i.e., the Most High God (for there is only one God) that was manifest in the flesh, who was He? He was not just a manifestation in the sens that Oneness believes. The word means declared, revealed, or made known. God was made known to mankind through the person of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ, the eternal God, became man. And as John says, "we beheld his glory full of grace and truth." Who did he behold? Who did he see? God--full of grace and truth! The only one that has the fullness of grace and truth is God. No one else has the fullness of truth. Romans 3:4 declares that all men are liars. Only God is true. Therefore Christ is God, not a lesser God, but the Most High God. There is only one God. How do you explain these things?
DHK

DHK, how do you quote scriptures, like the ones above, and say that there is a difference in the belief of the Oneness/Trinity?

You say that 3AM believes in two Gods, one lesser than the other, but yet you believe in one God and say that He is made up of three persons?

It looks as though she has just narrowed it down. (Two Gods) I don't believe that Jesus is any lesser than God, because He is God!

It appears that you believe in One God and make Him into three persons. Do you believe that God is God, Jesus is God, and the Holy Spirit is God and call them (all three) God? Again !

All that you quoted above is the same thing that the Oneness churches believe. "ONE GOD!" It is just that you say He is three persons. Right?

Not looking for an argument, just an explanation!

Still learning,
MEE

 

[DHK]

Isa. 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

There is only one God. That God is described here as Jehovah. There are not three manifestations of this one God. There is only one God. Note here that there was no God formed after this one God, neither shall there ever be. There has always been and forever will be just one God. He has always been and forever will be manifested in three persons: the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. There can only be one God, and there can only be one Saviour (verse 11). That Saviour is Jehovah. In the New Testament it is Jesus. He is not a manifestation of Jehovah. He is Jehovah. For there is only one God, and that one God is eternal throughout all ages known as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. In 1Tim.3:16; Johm 1:1,14 He is known as Christ, and in Acts 5:1-4, He is seen as the Holy Spirit. He is God. There is only one God. The same God that exists throughout all eternity is changeless. "I the Lord change not."
DHK

 

[hrhema]

Jehovah is not the name of the Trinity. Jehovah is the name of the FAther. God who is spirit.
Jesus is Jesus' name. His name means Jehovah saves. This was the special name the Angel gave to Mary and Joseph. This is the name that brings Salvation.

I have noticed that others ignore my posts. Why is this? You cannot answer my statements?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by hrhema:
Jehovah is not the name of the Trinity. Jehovah is the name of the FAther. God who is spirit.
Jesus is Jesus' name. His name means Jehovah saves. This was the special name the Angel gave to Mary and Joseph. This is the name that brings Salvation.

Jehovah is a special and significant name (not merely title such as Lord [adonai]), by which
God revealed himself to the ancient Hebrews. It is not the name of the trinity, as you say. Nor is it the name for the Father. It is the name for Lord, and in the KJV is designated in all capitals as LORD.

Jesus (Iesous) is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "Joshua" (yehoshua`), meaning "Yahweh is
salvation." It stands therefore in the Septuagint
and Apocrypha for "Joshua," and in Ac 7:45 and
Heb 4:8 likewise represents the Old Testament
Joshua; hence, in the Revised Version (British
and American) is in these passages rendered
"Joshua." (ISBE)

It becomes evident that Jesus is Jehovah. Again we go to Isaiah 43:10,11. There is one God and one Saviour. The Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Jesus of the New Testament.
DHK

 

[3AngelsMom]

DHK,

From what I have seen of MEE and Oneness's posts what you just posted describes the Oneness belief!

That Jesus is the same 'One God' from the OT.

That is what they believe.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by kate B...007:
I'm thinking someone has a bad attitude always calling people names, which I do believe is a board no-no.

ALWAYS?

I don't think so!

I would have to say that calling people heretics, and telling them that they are lost would not only be considered a personal attack, but should also be considered very un Christ like, but then I wouldn't expect you to defend me against people that you agree with no matter how personal they got.

In case you can only see the posts where I get mad, I will, in this case point you to the 4th post of mine in this thread where I apologized to Neal for expressing that anger.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
DHK,

From what I have seen of MEE and Oneness's posts what you just posted describes the Oneness belief!

That Jesus is the same 'One God' from the OT.

That is what they believe.

Then you misunderstand both the trinity and Oneness Theology. Oneness Theology denies the trinity, that there are three persons in one God: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, all co-eternal and co-existent one with another. I have held that from the beginning. Oneness do not beleive that.
Where you seem to be confused is that I believe in the deity of Christ. Unless one gets past the deity of Christ and who Christ really is, they will never understand the trinity. Therefore I have been concentrating much of my time here just to this one aspect of the deity of Christ. Oneness actually affirms the deity of Christ, but they deny the trinity. Here is what they believe:

"Oneness theology denies the Trinity and teaches that God is a single person who has "revealed Himself as Father, through His Son, in redemption; and as the Holy Spirit, by emanation." Another way of looking at it is that God revealed himself as Father in the Old Testament, as the Son in Jesus during Christ’s ministry on earth, and now as the Holy Spirit after Christ’s ascension." (CARM)

It is almost like replacement theology. The Son replaces the Father, and the Holy Spirit replaces the Son. We don't believe that. We believe in the trinity, and all three persons of the trinity, making up one God are all active today. Jehovah is not simply the God of the Old Testament. He is the God of the New Testament as well. Jehovah is Jesus. They are one in the same. He is called Jehovah in the Old Testament and Jesus in the New Testament. Jesus did not replace Jehovah. Jesus is Jehovah. That is the difference.
DHK

 

[SolaScriptura in 2003]

I would add to what DHK said that the word Jehovah means uncreated or self-existent. As a whole, God is self-existent and shares the same uncreated essence:

The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. (Athanasius)

Thus, the Trinity is self-existent and the name can therefore be applied to all three Persons.

(3AM said) I would have to say that calling people heretics, and telling them that they are lost would not only be considered a personal attack, but should also be considered very un Christ like...

Because obviously Christ did not tell the Jews they were lost (John 8:21, John 8:44) and He obviously didn't tell them they were hypocrites (Mat 15:7) and He certainly didn't call them vipers. (Mat 12:34) And, that great servant of Jesus, the apostle Paul so obviously never called anyone an heretic. (Titus 3:10) ***SARCASM ALERT*** By the way, that great prophet of God, Elijah, used sarcasm against idolators. (1 Ki 18:27)

[ April 11, 2003, 02:36 AM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]