Trinity revisited!

DHK: I took this scripture to different English teachers I had when I was in school and all of them said that according to what they had been taught it was plain and obvious that the writer was talking about that there was a singular name that was to be used.

I have studied many book and many writers and theologians on the subject of the Trinity. Many of them have also been dumbfounded by the fact that the name of Jesus is not used when the book of ACts makes it clear this is the formula for baptism. THey said using the name of Jesus in no way hurts the doctrine of the Trinity. They know the Bible makes it very clear that salvation comes through this name.

DHK: I have heard exactly what you said from others but it is not correct. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are not names they are titles. So no one would come in the authority of a title of a person. They would come in the authority of a name. You cannot write a check signing Father, or Son on it. A name has to be used.

Paul made it clear a singular name was used. When the Corinthians was arguing about who their spiritual Father was Paul asked them if they had been baptized in his name or Cephas' name or Aquila's name. So this lets us know they baptized in a name. That name according to the book of ACts was Jesus.

When a woman marries a man she takes his last name. The church is refered to as a bride of Christ so why would not the church take his name.
If a woman went and said I am Mrs Husband, or Mrs. Father or Mrs. Son she would be laughed at or would be told she has no legal stand without a legal married name. In baptism the church is to take on his name. The name of their bridegroom.

I am amazed how you can read Genesis and see the words Our a couple of times and jump to the conclusion that proves the Trinity when the same scripture talks about a singular image and uses the pronoun HIS image. Again it does not say their image.

Who created heaven and Earth? John said Jesus did. So Jesus is a singular person. What yout teach DHK is not scriptural. The Trinity did not create the Heavens and EArth but Jesus did.

Again as I have written before. John said that Jesus said that he was not going to leave them comfortless but he was sending another comforter. He did not say he was sending another person. Another part of the Godhead. He said he was coming to them but in a different form.
He told the apostles that the world did not recognize him but they did because he lived with them. Who lived with them? Jesus did. Who was coming back. Jesus was. How? In spirit form to reside in their hearts. They were going to be comforted by his spirits presence instead of his human presence. THis was the OTHER OR ANOTHER comforter. Jesus assured them that he was not going to forsake them but he was coming to them in another form.

Matthew 28:19 and John 14 in no way proves the Trinity.

 

Don't let the Canadian flag fool you. I'm not DHK

Again, your understanding of the idiom is flawed.

Look at the examples again:

1. By the authority of: Open up in the name of the law!
2. For the reason of; using as a reason: grisly experiments performed in the name of science.

Also your understanding of the Trinity is wrong. I like to use the word "triune" as it is easier to understand, it means "three one". That is precisely why the Trinity fits Genesis 1:26-27, with the plural (Hebrew has a dual tense, so plural is three or more) then singular. The doctrine of the Trinity states that there is 1 God in 3 persons, not 3 Gods, hence it is appropriate for God (singular) to say "Let Us create man in Our own...."

8 For thus says the LORD of hosts, "After glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the apple of His eye.
9 "For behold, I will wave My hand over them so that they will be plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the LORD of hosts has sent Me. - Zechariah 2:8-9 NASB

Notice here that Yahveh is speaking and He says that He has been send by Yahveh. One person of the Godhead has sent another. The Father has sent the Son after glory.

 

The problem DualHunter is that Jesus did not agree with this doctrine. Did he not say the Father is spirit only? Yes he did. Paul did not agree with you because he said the only person in the Godhead is Jesus. That all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus bodily. He also again and I have repeated this more than once said that the other comforter would be him coming back in a different form. It is there in black and white but again his words are ignored to defend this doctrine.

 

Christ said that "God is Spirit" but did not say "Spirit ONLY".

Paul did not say "There is only One Person in the Godhead".

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are ALL called "God" in the the Bible.

Its pretty easy really.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Paul said that Jesus is fully God. Also notice that Jesus said He would send the comforter, not return as the comforter.

 

Good point, Dualhunter. Without the reality of the Trinity, Christ's comments in John 16:1-16 would either: (1) endorse tritheism, or (2) evoke suspicions of schizophrenia.

 

Originally posted by Dualhunter:
Paul said that Jesus is fully God. Also notice that Jesus said He would send
the comforter, not return as the comforter.


I've always read it to mean He would come back.
They knew Jesus was departing, yet He said "I will come".

Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

 

John 14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

There is no question that the Scriptures teach that the Comforter is the Holy Spirit, and none else but the Holy Spirit.
DHK

 

Singer, you do know that there will be a second coming of Christ don't you? The second coming of Christ is distinct from the sending of the Spirit.

 

Yes, I understand that quite well...that's a whole different topic.

 

" There is no question that the Scriptures teach that the Comforter
is the Holy Spirit, and none else but the Holy Spirit. "

You're an advocate and believer in the Trinity, DHK,....now why would you
separate the third part of the Trinity off in this situation.

Especially after Jesus said "I will come".....when referring to the Holy Spirit
that would be sent. Jesus is God and He is also the Holy Spirit. The
three are inseparable.

Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.......and these three are One.

If a person can succeed in separating the Holy Spirit from Jesus,
we could also divide God and Jesus as two separate entities.

Gotta admit that the bible allows that (scripturally.... even) and thus
we have the contention over the Trinity in the first place.

 

When Jesus said he was going to send ANOTHER comforter he was not speaking about another person as Trinitarians claim. Jesus said that this other comforter was already with them. Who was with them? Jesus! Why do Trinitarians ignore what Jesus said.

Jesus was with the disciples in human flesh. He was there in body. When he returned to Heaven he was sending his spirit back to dwell within men.

A very old song says: "When Jesus comes into my Heart." This fits exactly what Jesus was stating. He was sending his spirit to come into our hearts. To reside within us. Since he could no longer be with men in bodily form he was sending his spirit back. Being a male he spoke of this other comforter in the maculine gender.

Jesus said the FAther is spirit yet Trinitarians claim he is a person. So who is correct. Jesus or the Trinitarians. Jesus also said that no man hath seen him at any time so this would tell me that the appearances of God in the Old Testament would have been Jesus not the FAther or the Bible lies.

I believe in God the FAther, and Jesus the Son who is God manifest in the flesh. This is it.

 

Trinitarians don't ignore what Jesus said. When Jesus spoke of the Spirit and the Father in distinct relational terms in John 16 and 17, Trinitarians take that to mean genuine distinct personal relationships. Those who try to ignore the plain sense of these passages would have us believe that Christ was either schizophrenic or that He was altogether separate in BEING from the Father (ie the heresey of tritheism or subordinationism). The actions and prayers described in these two passages portray real "I-Thou" relationships between the Son and the Father and between Christ and the Helper.

Actually, you present a false dichotomy. The Father being spirit and the Father's personhood are not mutually exclusive. Neither is the Spirit's being spirit and the Spirit's personhood mutually exclusive (nor that of the Son for that matter). God is NOT an impersonal force. He is a personal Being--in fact He is a tri-personal Being.

Well your first sentence is correct as far as it goes, but is not "it" (ie not all there is to it).

I believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit Who is ONE God. I believe that Jesus is God the Son manifest in the flesh.

Peace.

 

In fact, I think the Creed of Athanasius sums it up nicely:

That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons: nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son: and another of the Holy Ghost.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one: the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son: and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate: and the Holy Ghost uncreate.
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible: and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal: and the Holy Ghost eternal.
And yet they are not three eternals: but one eternal.
As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated; but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty: and the Holy Ghost Almighty.
And yet they are not three Almighties: but one Almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God: and the Holy Ghost is God.
And yet they are not three Gods; but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord: and the Holy Ghost Lord.
And yet not three Lords; but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity: to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord;
So are we forbidden by the Catholick Religion: to say, there be three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is made of none: neither created, nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone: not made, nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Ghost is of the Father and the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons: one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.
And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other: none is greater, nor less than another;
But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together: and co-equal.
So that in all things, as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He, therefore, that will be saved: must thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation: that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right faith is, that we believe and confess: that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man;
God, of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds: and Man of the Substance of his Mother, born in the world;
Perfect God, and perfect Man: of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting;
Equal to the Father as touching his Godhead: and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood.
Who although he be God and Man: yet he is not two, but one Christ;
One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh: but by taking of the Manhood into God;
One altogether; not by confusion of Substance: but by unity of Person.
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man: so God and Man is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation: descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead.
He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty: from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies: and shall give account for their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting: and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

 

To ALL that deny that Jesus is God:

This is a key belief that distinguishes Christianity from other religions. This is very sad because God loves all of us so much that He became man in the person of Jesus Christ and suffered an awful death for our sins, that we may spend eternity with Him in heaven. And, yet, you have people denying Him by denying that He is God(2 Timothy 2:12).

In Isaiah 45:23, God says,"...to me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear." Compare this verse with Philippians 2:10 where we read, "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the Glory of God the Father."

Jesus Christ is seen here as the fulfillment of prophecy in Isaiah 45:23. This does not take a theologian to figure this out. An interesting note here is that Paul uses the Greek word Kyrios for Jesus Christ which is the same word used in the Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) to translate the name of God (Yaweh).

Isaiah 9:6,"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."

I think all agree that the child being born here is a clear prophecy about Jesus the Messiah. Yet, you see Him being referred to as "Mighty God."
Hence it is clear that this passage is referring to Jesus the Mighty God.

 

Just wanted to come stir up a little trouble.

To all the Trinitarians, What Name was Jesus talking about in Mat 28:19?

God bless

 

ONENESS; I already tried that one. They will tell us that we have missed the point. That the word name is not singular and that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are names. They totally ignore what Grammar teachers have said. They run to Isaiah 9 to try and prove their point.

 

Why would I believe the anthasius creed. This man was taught by the same person that taught Arius.
They both were bishops of Alexandria, Egypt.
No one believed this doctrine until he created it in his mind. What possessed the man to come up with the doctrine. I think it is apparent that Egyptian theology became a part of this belief.
Just like Egyptian theology played a big role in Maryology. Isis was the Egyptian Madonna and her son's name was Horus. The man God.

Egypt had a Trinity but it was a three headed God.

 

(Dualhunter)

Singer, you do know that there will be a second coming of Christ don't you? The second
coming of Christ is distinct from the sending of the Spirit.

(Singer)

Dual.....do you really think the reference was to the second coming in the following verse...?


Jhn 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

 

Isa 9? They run there to try and rectify their point? If anything it confirms what we are teaching.

Isa 9:6 His name shall be called...the Almighty God...The Everlasting Father...

God bless