Tripartite Sheol?

[Van]

I had not realized that a faction of Christians do NOT believe the OT saints were all taken to "Abraham's bosom" when they physically died, and had to wait there until they could be made "perfect" after Christ had died to provide the means to be made perfect.

Sheol is a Hebrew word, found about 65 times in the Old Testament, to the abode of the dead, physically a hollowed out place in the earth, tomb or grace, and spiritually the "neither world" where the human spirits of those who died under the Old Covenant were taken. And here, scripture also points to two places, a place for believers and a place for unbelievers. Thus scripture presents, according to my understanding, a tripartite Sheol.

However there are many other views offered in the literature. Let us consider these views:

First we can dispense with disputing that "Sheol" is used as a place where the physical remains undergo corruption. I am not aware of anyone denying that usage. So let us turn to the spiritual "netherworld."

Not too many deny that Sheol is used in scripture to refer to where the human spirits of unbelievers are taken, a place of discomfort and punishment. There are several verses that indicate unbelievers go there, and additional verses that indicate believers will NOT go there.

Psalm 49:15 NET
But God will rescue my life from the power of Sheol; certainly he will pull me to safety. (Selah)

Here we see that when a believer physically dies, his or her soul is not abandoned to the place of discomfort, but is taken somewhere else. I see this other place as being Abraham's bosom.

To further muddy the waters, some claim Abraham's bosom is a dark dank place since it is within spiritual eye-shot of the dark and dank place in Hades. We know that Abraham was promised to go "to your fathers in peace." Not necessarily heaven but a gathering place for the OT saints. Genesis 15:15. Again, in Genesis 47:30 Jacob expected to go to "the fathers" again referring to a gathering place. A dark and dank place does not fit with a "place of comfort."

Finally, there is a persistent false claim Abraham's bosom refers to "Paradise." But no verse says or suggests any such thing. The thief was taken to "Paradise" on the day Christ died, providing the means of being made perfect and thus allowed entry into Heaven, the abode of God. To read back into the verse, that is where those who physically died before Christ provided the means of reconciliation is unsound.

Paradise and "the third heaven" the abode of God are used interchangeable in scripture.

 

[Ascetic X]

The thief was taken to "Paradise" on the day Christ died, providing the means of being made perfect and thus allowed entry into Heaven, the abode of God. To read back into the verse, that is where those who physically died before Christ provided the means of reconciliation is unsound.

Paradise and "the third heaven" the abode of God are used interchangeable in scripture.

Some scholars say that Luke 23:43

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Should move the comma to read:

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Because Jesus did not enter paradise the day He was crucified. He descended into hades or the realm of the dead to proclaim His victory, and to bring into heaven the imprisoned souls of the righteous from Adam onward, called the harrowing of hell in Roman Catholic and Orthodox circles.

1 Peter 3:18-19 (NKJV) states: "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison."

The Harrowing of Hell refers to the interval between Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, when he descended into the realm of the dead (Hades/Limbo) to victoriously shatter its gates, defeat Satan, and free the righteous souls held captive since the beginning of the world. It is a traditional belief in Catholicism and Orthodoxy, often portrayed as a triumphant rescue mission where Jesus leads figures like Adam and Eve out of darkness.

Where do Christians go when they die? Do we sleep in Jesus, unconsciously awaiting our resurrection? Or do we go to Paradise, Heaven, or some intermediate place called “to be with Christ”?

 

[KenH]

"Abraham's bosom"

Abraham's bosom means Heaven.

and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: by Abraham's bosom is meant heaven, a phrase well known to the Jews, by which they commonly expressed the happiness of the future state: of Abraham's happy state they had no doubt; and when they spake of the happiness of another's, they sometimes signified it by going to Abraham...hence Abraham's bosom came to signify the near and intimate enjoyment of happiness with him in the other world.

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Luke 16:22

 

[Ben1445]

Because Jesus did not enter paradise the day He was crucified. He descended into hades or the realm of the dead to proclaim His victory, and to bring into heaven the imprisoned souls of the righteous from Adam onward, called the harrowing of hell in Roman Catholic and Orthodox circles.

If Jesus said He would be there, I believe Him, and I don’t think that He would make an appointment He couldn’t keep.

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

If Jesus Christ made this statement, then He declared His omnipresence to Nicodemus.

 

[Ascetic X]

If Jesus said He would be there, I believe Him, and I don’t think that He would make an appointment He couldn’t keep.

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

If Jesus Christ made this statement, then He declared His omnipresence to Nicodemus.

But perhaps Jesus did not say that He and the thief would be in paradise that day, He instead may have said “Verily, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.”

Meaning in the future, not that very day. If paradise means the New Jerusalem, the New Heaven and New Earth, that does not exist yet, so the thief is still waiting.

The “paradise” term stems from Persian, referring to a walled park, garden, or orchard.

But then again, Jesus could have died, engaged in the harrowing of hades, and brought the thief into paradise all in the same day, if paradise means Abraham’s bosom, a kind of waiting room of bliss prior to the resurrection of the righteous.

I am not stubbornly dogmatic about it, I just have questions. It seems odd that when we die, we go to heaven as a disembodied soul, then later our soul gets a new, resurrected body. But that is what many Bible teachers state.

 

[Ben1445]

But perhaps Jesus did not say that He and the thief would be in paradise that day, He instead may have said “Verily, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.”

Meaning in the future, not that very day. If paradise means the New Jerusalem, the New Heaven and New Earth, that does not exist yet, so the thief is still waiting.

Maybe a Greek scholar will chime in.
I don’t think commas are something that translators would flippantly place or misplace.
I would be interested in @John of Japan ’s opinion here.

Some scholars say that Luke 23:43

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Should move the comma to read:

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

It seems to me that it would be easy enough to tell in the original language where the description of “today” would properly be placed in the context.

 

[Ascetic X]

Maybe a Greek scholar will chime in.
I don’t think commas are something that translators would flippantly place or misplace.
I would be interested in @John of Japan ’s opinion here.


It seems to me that it would be easy enough to tell in the original language where the description of “today” would properly be placed in the context.

There is no punctuation in the ancient texts. So commas are editorial additions.

Ancient Hebrew and Greek Bible manuscripts were written without punctuation, spaces between words, or lowercase letters, appearing as continuous, all-caps text (scriptio continua). This format, standard in antiquity, required readers to parse sentences based on context. Modern punctuation and paragraph formatting were added later by translators and scholars.

Early Hebrew (Old Testament) and Greek (New Testament) manuscripts lacked periods, commas, and spaces, making words flow together in a continuous string.

 

[Ben1445]

There is no punctuation in the ancient texts. So commas are editorial additions.

Ancient Hebrew and Greek Bible manuscripts were written without punctuation, spaces between words, or lowercase letters, appearing as continuous, all-caps text (scriptio continua). This format, standard in antiquity, required readers to parse sentences based on context. Modern punctuation and paragraph formatting were added later by translators and scholars.

Early Hebrew (Old Testament) and Greek (New Testament) manuscripts lacked periods, commas, and spaces, making words flow together in a continuous string.

I don’t mean check the original manuscripts for punctuation.
They should be able to be read and understood as written without the English commas.

 

[percho]

What did the thief request of Jesus?
What did Jesus promise the thief?
Is the request and the promise one and the same?
What is found in the midst of the paradise of God?
What is it's purpose?
With me you shall be in *[unto] the paradise. * [because of being dative]

for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence, [2 Tim 4:1, Rev 20:4 and 5] then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power -- for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet -- the last enemy is done away -- death; for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him, and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all. 1 Cor 15:22-28

Those who are Christ's in his presence V23 above. What about the rest of the dead? When does the Son deliver up the kingdom to the Father? What takes place just before the delivery of the kingdom? Then the end of what V24? It looks to me like the end of all who have died in Adam being made alive in Christ..

Yes or No???


where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'

What precedes that verse in 1 Cor 15:55 Exactly when does Hades not show to have victory over the dead therein? is this when?
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. V 54

Has Abraham been changed from corruptible to incorruptible as of this date 2?7/2026 or does Hades still have victory over him?
What about David over fifty days after the death and resurrection of the Christ? Where was the soul of David that day and had he seen corruption?
Acts 2 and 13 also.

 

[easternstar]

About Luke 23:43 -- It does not make sense to maintain that Jesus said, "Verily I say unto thee today," with the comma after 'today', because that would not be logical or necessary since it's obvious that He is speaking that day. So, the comma has to come after 'thee' to make sense.

 

[Van]

Some scholars say that Luke 23:43

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Should move the comma to read:

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

Because Jesus did not enter paradise the day He was crucified. He descended into hades or the realm of the dead to proclaim His victory, and to bring into heaven the imprisoned souls of the righteous from Adam onward, called the harrowing of hell in Roman Catholic and Orthodox circles.

1 Peter 3:18-19 (NKJV) states: "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison."

The Harrowing of Hell refers to the interval between Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, when he descended into the realm of the dead (Hades/Limbo) to victoriously shatter its gates, defeat Satan, and free the righteous souls held captive since the beginning of the world. It is a traditional belief in Catholicism and Orthodoxy, often portrayed as a triumphant rescue mission where Jesus leads figures like Adam and Eve out of darkness.

Where do Christians go when they die? Do we sleep in Jesus, unconsciously awaiting our resurrection? Or do we go to Paradise, Heaven, or some intermediate place called “to be with Christ”?

1) I understand scripture to say "today, the day that I died, you will be with Me in Paradise, the third Heaven, the abode of God.

2) Your statement that Jesus did NOT enter Paradise the day He died, seems contrary to scripture.

3) 1 Peter 3:18-19 indicates once Christ died, He could bring human spirits to God in Heaven.

4) The "Harrowing of Hell" is not a phrase from scripture, but perhaps from the dark ages. Some use the phrase to refer to Christ's activities between His death and His resurrection.

5) 1 Peter 4:6 is vague, with differing interpretations. I go with the idea the gospel had been preached to people who are now dead, when they were physically alive. This is consistent with believers being made spiritually alive when they are transferred spiritually into Christ.

6) Ephesians 4:9 does support that Jesus spiritually descended into the "lower regions" referring to the two regions of Sheol (OT) or Hades (NT) which were the places for unbelievers and the separate place for believers, Abraham's bosom.

7) Of course under the New Covenant in His blood, we go directly to the Third Heaven, the Abode of God. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8

 

[37818]

The Hebrew Sheol, the nether world occurres in 68 verses.
Translated, pit, grave and hell in the KJV.

Luke 16:19-31, the beggar was taken to be at Abraham's side.

Where the rich man went, where Moses and the prophets spoke of.
Deuteronomy 32:22, Song of Solomon 8:6. And Psalm 86:13.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Abraham's bosom means Heaven.

and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: by Abraham's bosom is meant heaven, a phrase well known to the Jews, by which they commonly expressed the happiness of the future state: of Abraham's happy state they had no doubt; and when they spake of the happiness of another's, they sometimes signified it by going to Abraham...hence Abraham's bosom came to signify the near and intimate enjoyment of happiness with him in the other world.

- excerpt from John Gill's Bible commentary on Luke 16:22

But Abraham is not our father… rather, he is the father of the Jews, the Old Testament father of the Jewish nation. Our father is God the Father, the creator of Heaven and Earth. So are the dead in heaven with God? What’s Gill say about that?

Truly Ken, I’d like to disassociate from the talmudic Jews of the Old Testament who sacrificed life to God in order to cleanse themselves of wrong doing. We have our own sacrifice in the blood of Jesus the Christ.Recognize this as P substantiation, which appears to be a dirty word to some of these modernists however I see it as the remnant legacy of Jewish Old Testament sacramentalism … something I don’t want any part of. In Christ, our savior has come to liberate the word and it is Him who I follow.

 

[John of Japan]

Maybe a Greek scholar will chime in.
I don’t think commas are something that translators would flippantly place or misplace.
I would be interested in @John of Japan ’s opinion here.

Thank you for your confidence in me.

It seems to me that it would be easy enough to tell in the original language where the description of “today” would properly be placed in the context.

I think the "today" belongs with the second half of the sentence, saying to the thief that on that day he would be in paradise with Jesus. Greek sentence order is not as fixed as English, since it is a very inflected language (lots of conjugations and paradigms). So, when a word comes out of its normal order ("Today...") it is done for emphasis. So Jesus is putting the emphasis on the word "Today" by putting it first in the second clause.

Also, there is not really any semantic ("meaning") necessity for Jesus to say "I say to you today...", since there is no other time Jesus could say this. They had not previously met, and there is no tomorrow on earth for the thief.

 

[John of Japan]

Kudos to Ascetic X for knowing the Persian origin of "paradise" (παράδεισος). It was an old word before appearing in the NT. Xenophon (c. 430-355 BC) used it in his Anabasis as a "hunting park" where a king would hunt tame deer.

It was the word used in the Septuagint for the Garden of Eden in Genesis 2, but Revelation 2:7 gives us its current location as being in the New Jerusalem: "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

So my thinking is that God took Eden to Heaven, the abode of God. Then, Abraham's bosom was where the righteous dead went until the death of Christ on the cross. Jesus then went up to Heaven to begin preparing a place for all believers, including the saved thief, who followed a short while after (John 14:1-3). And of course those in Abraham's bosom went up also.

 

[John of Japan]

Just to make us look forward more to the New Jerusalem, here is a description from a note in my copy of the Anabasis: "Persian kings and nobles indulged in hunting as their favorite pastime. In order to provide an abundance of game, always easily accessible, they set off great 'hunting parks,' or 'preserves' (παράδεισοι), which were enclosed by walls, covered with forests, and watered by numerous streams. Here 'were bred or kept wild beasts of various kinds, chiefly of the more harmless sorts, as stages, antelopes, and wild sheep.' The animals were hunted with the bow and arrow, or with javelins, but the sport was looked upon with much less favor than hunting in the open field." (Kelsey and Zenos edition of the Anabasis, 1895).

 

[37818]

Before Jesus' resurrection He was in Sheol/Hades per Acts 2:27, . . . Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, . . . .
Deuteronomy 32:22, Psalms 86:13, Luke 16:22.

 

[Van]

Sorry to have to repeat, but Scripture should NOT be ignored.

1) The Garden of Eden was not Paradise, which is the third heaven. But the Garden of Eden was a "type" for "Paradise."

2) Abraham's bosom was NOT Paradise, which is the third heaven. Recall no one ascended to the third heaven until Christ. John 3:13.

 

[Van]

Acts 2:27 NASB
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption.

Here David says his human spirit/soul will not be left in Hades, the region for those heading for destruction. Note those taken to Abraham's bosom were NOT abandoned, they just as to wait to be made perfect by the blood of the Lamb, then their human spirits were taken to the third Heaven, to be with God.

And then David says Christ will not see corruption, neither His body nor His Spirit. Thus a prophecy of the empty tomb.

 

[percho]

Kudos to Ascetic X for knowing the Persian origin of "paradise" (παράδεισος). It was an old word before appearing in the NT. Xenophon (c. 430-355 BC) used it in his Anabasis as a "hunting park" where a king would hunt tame deer.

It was the word used in the Septuagint for the Garden of Eden in Genesis 2, but Revelation 2:7 gives us its current location as being in the New Jerusalem: "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

So my thinking is that God took Eden to Heaven, the abode of God. Then, Abraham's bosom was where the righteous dead went until the death of Christ on the cross. Jesus then went up to Heaven to begin preparing a place for all believers, including the saved thief, who followed a short while after (John 14:1-3). And of course those in Abraham's bosom went up also.

Acts 13:36 YLT for David, indeed, his own generation having served by the will of God, did fall asleep, and was added unto his fathers, and saw corruption,
Gen 37:35 YLT And Jacob rendeth his raiment, and putteth sackcloth on his loins, and becometh a mourner for his son many days, and all his sons and all his daughters rise to comfort him, and he refuseth to comfort himself, and saith, 'For -- I go down mourning unto my son, to Sheol,' and his father weepeth for him.
Gen 42:38 YLT and he saith, 'My son doth not go down with you, for his brother is dead, and he by himself is left; when mischief hath met him in the way in which ye go, then ye have brought down my grey hairs in sorrow to sheol.'

Where exactly was the once living soul, David, added to his fathers?

Now read Acts 2:22-32 Where Peter being led by the Holy Spirit speaks concerning the soul named David, and the soul named Jesus of Nazareth relative to Hades/Sheol and corruption of the flesh.

Please note the soul leaving Hades is relative to resurrection. Yes or No?

This day Peter is speaking. is fifty plus days following the death of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ. I believe fifty days following the resurrection.

Do you think Peter thinks the soul of David is still left in Sheol/Hades on that particular day?

Also would like your thought on the following:

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 Cor 5:1

Could that in bold be the place prepared for us?