Featured Trouble With the Trinity?

agedman · Jan 28, 2014

JamesL said: ↑

Then we get to Coequal Persons. Is there any scripture which says that? I have found ZERO. Scripture teaches that Jesus is FROM the Father, not coequal. The Holy Spirit is from them BOTH, not coequal.
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Here is your verse.
You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had.
Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form, he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross.

The verse states that the Lord Jesus Christ was God.

That He did not cling to being equal with God.

There is then Scriptures that clearly state the co-equal estate.

JamesL · Jan 28, 2014

agedman said: ↑

Here is your verse.
You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had.
Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God
as something to cling to.
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being.
When he appeared in human form, he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross.

The verse states that the Lord Jesus Christ was God.

That He did not cling to being equal with God.

There is then Scriptures that clearly state the co-equal estate.
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I was not suggesting that Christ did/does not have equality with God. I read my post again, and I can see where it looks that way. I apologize for not being as clear as I should have been.

Scripture does not use the words "coequal" or "persons", as to teach that there are three separate beings who stand shoulder to shoulder.

What scripture affirms is that the Word of God and the Breath of God are equal with God, from God, with God, and are God.

I am content with what scripture affirms, and see no need to press any further that what scripture actually affirms. How there is personality ascribed to each, and interaction from one to another, I do not know. And I am content with that

When men attempt to squeeze Him into a neat theological structure, inevitably the train goes off the tracks. Scripture does not teach anything about 3 coequal Persons.

And since scripture teaches nothing like that, the onus is upon every man who departs from scriptural language to be 100% clear on what he means.

How do you define Person?
How do you understand Coequal?
How to you understand Coequal relating to Persons?

But even as important, what was meant by those who coined the terms?

Yeshua1 · Jan 28, 2014

JamesL said: ↑

I was not suggesting that Christ did/does not have equality with God. I read my post again, and I can see where it looks that way. I apologize for not being as clear as I should have been.

Scripture does not use the words "coequal" or "persons", as to teach that there are three separate beings who stand shoulder to shoulder.

What scripture affirms is that the Word of God and the Breath of God are equal with God, from God, with God, and are God.

I am content with what scripture affirms, and see no need to press any further that what scripture actually affirms. How there is personality ascribed to each, and interaction from one to another, I do not know. And I am content with that

When men attempt to squeeze Him into a neat theological structure, inevitably the train goes off the tracks. Scripture does not teach anything about 3 coequal Persons.

And since scripture teaches nothing like that, the onus is upon every man who departs from scriptural language to be 100% clear on what he means.

How do you define Person?
How do you understand Coequal?
How to you understand Coequal relating to Persons?

But even as important, what was meant by those who coined the terms?
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This is, reduced to simpliest terminology, what the Bible describes the trinity being!

There is but ONE God, and within that ONE God, are 3 seperate persons, whom the Bible calls father/jesus/Holy Spirit!

All 3 equally are God, yet not 3 seperate Gods, but One God expressed 3 seperate persons, not one God manifested himself 3 different temp ways, but eternally father/Son/spirit!

OldRegular · Jan 28, 2014

JamesL said: ↑

I've heard them both attempt it. You might want to have Old Regular debate against James White, though, because they do not agree. OR seems to think that Person=Being, while White emphatically claims that Person and Being are NOT synonymous.
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i am not familiar with White so I cannot say that we agree or disagree. You ask for a definition of person in the earlier thread on the Trinity. I gave you mine!

Man is a self-conscious or rational being. He is aware of his existence. He is able to interact and communicate with other men. He recognizes something within himself that distinguishes him from other creatures. That something is his person hood. He is able to discern and perhaps contemplate that which he may call ‘good’, in a moral sense, in the world about him. He is also able to discern that which is less good even ‘evil’ in his world. However, it must be acknowledged that there is a great disparity between what might be termed ‘good’ and ‘evil’ among different cultural groups.
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Below I give you the definition of a "being". I would say that my understanding of person is certainly more restrictive and more explicit than "being" But frankly I see no conflict between my understanding of man or person and the definition of being. If you do then be kind enough to point it out.

be·ing [bee-ing] From:http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/being
noun
1. the fact of existing; existence (as opposed to nonexistence).
2. conscious, mortal existence; life: Our being is as an instantaneous flash of light in the midst of eternal night.
3. substance or nature: of such a being as to arouse fear.
4. something that exists: inanimate beings.
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JamesL said: ↑

At least one of them has the wrong trinity, for two people who disagree cannot both be right.
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I would suggest that the above statement is false. As I said I am not familiar with White but I suspect that his understanding of the Triune nature of God is orthodox!

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JamesL said: ↑

I'm not trying to suggest that I have difficulty with what scripture affirms, only that scripture does not use the same language of the creeds.

For goodness sake. Somewhere, in someone's explanation, there ought to be at least a couple of verbatim quotes from scripture.
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I gave several quotes from Scripture. If you find fault with them then elaborate instead of complaining. It has been stated on more than one occasion by different people that Scripture teaches the Triune nature of God but does not explicitly state it, though there are Scripture where the Three Persons of the Godhead are mentioned.

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JamesL said: ↑

And if someone's 25 sentence definition cannot contain even one scriptural phrase, then at least be honest enough to clearly define the words you are using.
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Instead of complaining why not search Scripture yourself!

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JamesL said: ↑

Take Old Regular, for example.

When I take everything together, I have to conclude that he believes God is One Person, while at the same time is Three Persons. How this is different from people, I have no idea.

But in one sentence, there is one person. Then a few sentences later, there are three persons.
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Generally when people speak of God they are speaking of God the Father. He is one person! Whether that was my thought process when I wrote that I cannot say. I presented additional information in a later post #10!

OldRegular said: ↑

It seems to me that a Christian must believe in the Divine Nature of Jesus Christ.

The Doctrine of the Incarnation, as clearly taught by Scripture, is that God the Son laid aside His Glory but not His Deity and took upon Himself the nature of man, both body and soul, but He retained all the characteristics of Deity. In the Incarnation there is only one person, Jesus Christ, but two natures. Jesus Christ was truly God and truly man.

Now if we can accept the Incarnation I cannot see the difficulty in accepting the Scriptural teaching of the Triune Godhead [or Trinity] in which there are three persons; God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, but only one nature, the Divine Nature.
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JamesL said: ↑

His "definition" of person used the word "being" in the first sentence.

So from that, it's pretty safe to say that Old Regular believes that One Being exists as Three Beings.
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That is an asinine conclusion. My definition was specifically related to man as a rational being, etc. which I called his personhood. Go back and read it again. I even took the trouble of giving a dictionary definition of being!

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JamesL said: ↑

And I will tell you, I cannot give the nod to any "trinity" that includes three beings.
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You are just being [verb] a contrary being, JL.

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Then we get to Coequal Persons. Is there any scripture which says that? I have found ZERO. Scripture teaches that Jesus is FROM the Father, not coequal. The Holy Spirit is from them BOTH, not coequal.
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You are wrong and in an earlier post I presented Scripture to show that God the Father and God the Word are co-equal. From post #4:

OldRegular said: ↑

Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ is the Incarnate God. John 1:1, 2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. Scripture also tells us: John 10:30 I and my Father are one. I believe you concede that God is a person. It cannot be denied that the Incarnate God, God the Son, then is a person. So here we have two in the Godhead identified as persons.
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JamesL said: ↑

I can affirm positively that the Father is God, the Word is God, the Breath of God is God.
The Word, who was God, was with God, and is God, became flesh as the man Jesus. Being God, He is the only man to have ever lived sinless. After His crucifixion, He was raised - by God, by the Holy Spirit, by Himself.

The Father, His Word, and His Spirit somehow interact in a personal way , communicating, cooperating, and being ever existent together without beginning or end.
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And God is One God so what is your problem?

Deuteronomy 6:4. Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

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JamesL said: ↑

How the Father, His Word, and His Breath can distinctly display attributes of personality, I cannot answer. Scripture does not answer, so it is best for me to remain humbly silent on the matter.
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I can understand that!!

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JamesL said: ↑

Beyond what scripture affirms, I cannot consent to press God into an imaginary box that is only big enough to fit into a proud ego. I cannot agree that the incomprehensible God might be reduced to a neatly packaged formula

Three Persons? No. I cannot see any supposed "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit" in scripture, and I will not affirm it because it reeks of Three Gods. I don't care how many times someone denies the polytheism, it is still there.
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You are contradicting yourself and in the same post!

JamesL said: ↑

I can affirm positively that the Father is God, the Word is God, the Breath of God is God.
The Word, who was God, was with God, and is God, became flesh as the man Jesus. Being God, He is the only man to have ever lived sinless. After His crucifixion, He was raised - by God, by the Holy Spirit, by Himself.

The Father, His Word, and His Spirit somehow interact in a personal way , communicating, cooperating, and being ever existent together without beginning or end.
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JamesL said: ↑

Use some biblical language, and we can talk. Use ambiguous words and phrases that can mean 6 or 8 different things, then fail to define them, and I call foul.
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I presented Scripture! It seems that given you contradict yourself on this issue as I note above you are just being contumacious!

Yeshua1 · Jan 28, 2014

OldRegular said: ↑

i am not familiar with White so I cannot say that we agree or disagree. You ask for a definition of person in the earlier thread on the Trinity. I gave you mine!

the Councile were intended to keep the Church from 2 heresies concerning the very nature of who Gos was/is!

NOT Modualism, as One God appearing to isreal as Father, to Apostles as Son, and now as Spiritin the Body!

Also, NOT 3 seperate Gods, for God is One God, who has also existed in his very essense as 3 seperate persons, father/Son/Spirit!
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