true or false: god CANNOT save Anyone Unless You Permit Him Too!

[Allan]

I am very short on time so I just want to respond to this one part:



We are BORN sinners. We are not sinners before we are born. I do not hold to a double predestination, that is akin to the quasi-universalist strawman that is often presented against Calvinism, i.e., that all is determined beforehand and nothing we do or do not do matters.

The Bible says otherwise.

Also, one brief note: THE BIBLE dictates theology, not theology dictates how we see the Bible. I've said this time and time again.

THE BIBLE says that we are born dead in our sin and trespasses. It does not get any clearer than Paul's exhortation to the Ephesians:

Eph 2:1 (KJV) And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The BIBLE says that we were dead. The Bible NEVER ONCE says that children are somehow innocent, without sin until the DO something, etc. The BIBLE says that GOD through His grace saves us and that WE can do nothing!

Good.. let's discuss it.
First, you KEEP adding things to what I am saying, either stay with what I say (and not your assumptions, presumptions, additions, and modification) or just leave the issues alone that you are addressing to me. I have never once contended that children are innocent or born free of a sin nature.

Secondly, you seem to miss completely what SCRIPTURE means by the word - 'DO' in reference to salvation. Biblically it refers to an action done that is righteous or salvic in nature.. ie.. it means 'works'. Faith is not a work no matter how you wish to dice up scripture and Romans establishes this beyond all contestation.

Lastly, in dealing with the main object of the above - spiritually dead:

If the term 'dead' or most specifically referring to 'spiritually dead' has a definition, do you agree the definition should be consistent in that usage (in this case regarding the spiritual sense) for all instances whereby it is used as such?

Therefore when we read in scripture 'we are dead in sins' and this 'dead' (spiritually) means unable or inability (which according to you equals completely dead as in not able to do, think or believe), then this same definition must be applied to Romans 6:2, 7 referring to believers in the same spiritual sense - 'we are dead to sin' .. 'he that is dead is freed from sin'. Both refer to a spiritual state of being, one of being 'IN' sin, the other of 'TO' sin, yet both are 'dead. Both refer to the exact same spiritual condition, that of being dead, and thus refer to the exact same 'ability' regarding 'dead'.

Remembering that we are 'dead' in sin, our deadness is 'to' something or someone - God (who is alive). The 'in sin' describes why we are considered 'dead' as opposed to that which is alive and thus without sin (Col 2:13). Understanding this we also understand that if we are 'dead in sins' (and yes we are), then God is 'dead' TO us, as we are to Him. This is why Paul states we as believers ARE 'dead TO sin', as we are no longer IN our sins therefore whatever is 'in' sin is 'dead to us' as God is 'dead' to them as well (1 Pet 2:24). Yet with respect to ability we note that while in sin we can 'do anything' (ie. works) to please God and therefore all our actions of presumed righteousness are soiled. As such, we have no ability to 'do' good or salvic/meritorious works as all we touch is tainted or imbued with our sin. This is why God states only that which is of faith, not works but faith, will and is able to please God. The term is in reality speaking to a relational point and contrasting us in sin to God.. and that which is of God to sin. That contrast is personified in the the fact that any actions of works on our part to earn heaven or please God is tainted by the very sin which separates us from God. This is why faith is not a work as you are 'doing' nothing but either believing what God said, or not. It is not a trade off of faith FOR salvation is a crying out for mercy to only one who can save you.

If your definition holds true then believers should no longer be 'able' or have the ability to sin as we see here the scriptures declare that we are 'dead' to them.. and the one who is dead is freed from sin.. However a small issue crops up a little later in the same chapter where it states not only that we ARE dead but that we are also to 'consider' ourselves dead to sin. So now it appears that our spiritual inability to sin is contrasted with the fact that though we are 'dead', we apparently have the 'ability' to do contrary to our nature.

dead is not a wooden literal concept when speaking spiritually as it refers to separation in contrast to a relationship.. dead vs alive, children of wrath vs children of God, unholy vs holy, unrighteousness vs righteousness,ect..

 

[DHK]

dead is not a wooden literal concept when speaking spiritually as it refers to separation in contrast to a relationship.. dead vs alive, children of wrath vs children of God, unholy vs holy, unrighteousness vs righteousness,ect..

This is where the Calvinist fails or builds a confusing theology because of a wrong definition. The word dead does not mean lifelessness as he supposes, but rather separation as you indicate. Eph.2:1:
"You hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses in sin."
They were dead (spiritually) because they were spiritually separated from God by their sin. Sin separates one from God. They needed to be reconciled to God by the Holy Spirit before they could be made spiritually alive. Death simply means separation.

 

[glfredrick]

Good.. let's discuss it.

I thought that was what we were doing... :love2:

First, you KEEP adding things to what I am saying, either stay with what I say (and not your assumptions, presumptions, additions, and modification) or just leave the issues alone that you are addressing to me. I have never once contended that children are innocent or born free of a sin nature.

Okay, I'll retract that part of my response. I didn't "add it" to what you said, I added it as a part of what your response leads to, for you DID respond questioning the point at which sin begins in a person.

Secondly, you seem to miss completely what SCRIPTURE means by the word - 'DO' in reference to salvation. Biblically it refers to an action done that is righteous or salvific in nature.. ie.. it means 'works'. Faith is not a work no matter how you wish to dice up scripture and Romans establishes this beyond all contestation.

Not to get snippy in my remark, but I am fairly cognizant of the verb "do." It implies "action" on the part of the person to whom salvation is offered. You are suggesting (no, you are stating emphatically!) that a person "do" believe while they are yet dead in their sin and trespasses. I am simply saying (as is the Scripture I quoted at length) that that is impossible. Moreover, that GOD says that HE "do" what we cannot.

As for faith not being a work -- you are correct, but I expect for all the wrong reasons. Faith is not a "work" because it is a "gift."

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)

For through the grace given to me I say to every one among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgement, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. (Romans 12:3)

Clearly, faith is a gift of God...

In order to deal with the fact that even our faith is "given," so as to use your THEOLOGICAL POSITION to argue away the plain meaning of Scripture (isn't that what you say I am doing?) you must use special pleading concerning "faith" so as to make it BOTH something we "do" and yet "not a work." Isn't it easier to just say what the Scriptures say, that our faith is a gift of God and not a work at all? But of course, then we have to utterly depend on God to initiate the actions of salvation, something that your THEOLOGICAL SYSTEM says cannot happen... :wavey:

Lastly, in dealing with the main object of the above - spiritually dead:

If the term 'dead' or most specifically referring to 'spiritually dead' has a definition, do you agree the definition should be consistent in that usage (in this case regarding the spiritual sense) for all instances whereby it is used as such?

Therefore when we read in scripture 'we are dead in sins' and this 'dead' (spiritually) means unable or inability (which according to you equals completely dead as in not able to do, think or believe), then this same definition must be applied to Romans 6:2, 7 referring to believers in the same spiritual sense - 'we are dead to sin' .. 'he that is dead is freed from sin'. Both refer to a spiritual state of being, one of being 'IN' sin, the other of 'TO' sin, yet both are 'dead. Both refer to the exact same spiritual condition, that of being dead, and thus refer to the exact same 'ability' regarding 'dead'.

Remembering that we are 'dead' in sin, our deadness is 'to' something or someone - God (who is alive). The 'in sin' describes why we are considered 'dead' as opposed to that which is alive and thus without sin (Col 2:13). Understanding this we also understand that if we are 'dead in sins' (and yes we are), then God is 'dead' TO us, as we are to Him. This is why Paul states we as believers ARE 'dead TO sin', as we are no longer IN our sins therefore whatever is 'in' sin is 'dead to us' as God is 'dead' to them as well (1 Pet 2:24). Yet with respect to ability we note that while in sin we can 'do anything' (IE. works) to please God and therefore all our actions of presumed righteousness are soiled. As such, we have no ability to 'do' good or salvific/meritorious works as all we touch is tainted or imbued with our sin. This is why God states only that which is of faith, not works but faith, will and is able to please God. The term is in reality speaking to a relational point and contrasting us in sin to God.. and that which is of God to sin. That contrast is personified in the the fact that any actions of works on our part to earn heaven or please God is tainted by the very sin which separates us from God. This is why faith is not a work as you are 'doing' nothing but either believing what God said, or not. It is not a trade off of faith FOR salvation is a crying out for mercy to only one who can save you.

If your definition holds true then believers should no longer be 'able' or have the ability to sin as we see here the scriptures declare that we are 'dead' to them.. and the one who is dead is freed from sin.. However a small issue crops up a little later in the same chapter where it states not only that we ARE dead but that we are also to 'consider' ourselves dead to sin. So now it appears that our spiritual inability to sin is contrasted with the fact that though we are 'dead', we apparently have the 'ability' to do contrary to our nature.

dead is not a wooden literal concept when speaking spiritually as it refers to separation in contrast to a relationship.. dead vs alive, children of wrath vs children of God, unholy vs holy, unrighteousness vs righteousness,ect..

I believe you just spent a WHOLE lot of words to craft nothing more than a strawman argument. Another common name for your fallacy is "all or nothing." In so doing, one must take ALL or NOTHING, there is no gray area. But, of course, in Scripture there is a LOT of gray area that must be taken in context.

Adam and Eve were "dead" when they were ousted from the Garden, yet they lived and procreated, and eventually launched the human race. Moses was "dead" yet he led God's elect people out of Egypt. David was "dead" yet he was called "a man after God's own heart." In fact, EVERY human being born on this earth, and Adam and Eve after their choice to rebel against God, are in fact "dead" in the biblical sense. That "deadness" does not shut down the mind, it does not shut down the body, and it does not halt the practice of sin, or even of some things or thoughts that might be considered "godly" or "righteous." But we are "dead" nonetheless, until "reborn" from above -- made new a new creation, justified, adopted, and regenerated.

If we are not "dead" then is God a liar for telling us plainly that we must be born again? Are you taking up the argument of Nicodemus and asking how a man can be born again after he is already born of his mother?

I won't add any other thoughts, lest you mistake them for me placing other new words into your argument...

 

[Jon-Marc]

No one is saved unless the Holy Spirit convicts them. Jesus did force Himself on Saul (who later became Paul) did He not? Jesus reveals to Saul Who He was, and Saul was saved. However, we DO have to call on Him, repent and ask for His forgiveness and cleansing.

 

[webdog]

As for faith not being a work -- you are correct, but I expect for all the wrong reasons. Faith is not a "work" because it is a "gift."

Regardless how you qualify it, faith is not a work because Scripture says it is not, regardless of being a separate "gift" or something inherent in man.

 

[gloopey1]

THE BIBLE says that we are born dead in our sin and trespasses. It does not get any clearer than Paul's exhortation to the Ephesians...

...The BIBLE says that we were dead. The Bible NEVER ONCE says that children are somehow innocent, without sin until the DO something, etc. The BIBLE says that GOD through His grace saves us and that WE can do nothing!

In order for someone to be dead, he must first be alive. Paul himself even said that he was alive once without the law, but that sin came and he died, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." -Romans 7:9 (KJV)

Paul goes on to say that this spiritual death happened during his lifetime. He never said that he was born dead or that dead people never really had life. No one who has ever encountered a dead person would conclude that such an individual was never alive. The very absence of life only proves that it once existed.

God does require men to meet His conditions or perish. Nowhere in Scripture do we read that repentance and faith are inevitable. What would be the point of God commanding men to do something they either will or will not do?

 

[DHK]

Adam and Eve were "dead" when they were ousted from the Garden, yet they lived and procreated, and eventually launched the human race. Moses was "dead" yet he led God's elect people out of Egypt. David was "dead" yet he was called "a man after God's own heart." In fact, EVERY human being born on this earth, and Adam and Eve after their choice to rebel against God, are in fact "dead" in the biblical sense. That "deadness" does not shut down the mind, it does not shut down the body, and it does not halt the practice of sin, or even of some things or thoughts that might be considered "godly" or "righteous." But we are "dead" nonetheless, until "reborn" from above -- made new a new creation, justified, adopted, and regenerated.

If we are not "dead" then is God a liar for telling us plainly that we must be born again? Are you taking up the argument of Nicodemus and asking how a man can be born again after he is already born of his mother?

Okay, they were dead. What does that mean?
What does it mean to be dead?

 

[preacher4truth]

Okay, they were dead. What does that mean?
What does it mean to be dead?

It means we were totally incapable of saving ourselves.

Period.


Even the faith we recieved, as a gift, was from Him.

Even if you think it was inherent, well, uh, where do you think you got it, if it was inherent?

Did you create yourself?

God gets all the glory. He did all the saving.

 

[DHK]

It means we were totally incapable of saving ourselves.

Period.


Even the faith we recieved, as a gift, was from Him.

Even if you think it was inherent, well, uh, where do you think you got it, if it was inherent?

Did you create yourself?

God gets all the glory. He did all the saving.

I didn't ask for a mini-sermon on salvation.
It is a simple question.
What is the Biblical definition of "dead" or "death." You can save your expounding for Sunday.

 

[preacher4truth]

I didn't ask for a mini-sermon on salvation.
It is a simple question.
What is the Biblical definition of "dead" or "death." You can save your expounding for Sunday.

In other words I refuted you.

And I'll preach anywhere and anytime I want.

 

[DHK]

In other words I refuted you.

And I'll preach anywhere and anytime I want.

No, you avoided me.
What is the meaning of death. I can answer it in one word or at the most in one sentence. So can a dictionary. Can you?

 

[preacher4truth]

No, you avoided me.
What is the meaning of death. I can answer it in one word or at the most in one sentence. So can a dictionary. Can you?

I avoid no one, nor have I avoided you. Do show where I "avoided" you.

Dictionary definitions are not a repository of Gods' truth. Are they?

Dead means incapable of saving self.

Sorry you didn't ask for nor like my sermon.

Next time put in your order, I'll make an attempt to accomodate.

Meaning of death? Nekros; dead, a corpse.

 

[Winman]

double post

 

[Winman]

In order for someone to be dead, he must first be alive. Paul himself even said that he was alive once without the law, but that sin came and he died, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." -Romans 7:9 (KJV)

Paul goes on to say that this spiritual death happened during his lifetime. He never said that he was born dead or that dead people never really had life. No one who has ever encountered a dead person would conclude that such an individual was never alive. The very absence of life only proves that it once existed.

God does require men to meet His conditions or perish. Nowhere in Scripture do we read that repentance and faith are inevitable. What would be the point of God commanding men to do something they either will or will not do?

I agree with you Jeff, a person must first be alive to die and be dead. I believe much scripture supports this as the verse you quoted from Paul. When the prodigal son returned home Jesus twice said he was ALIVE AGAIN. How can a person be alive again if he was born dead? There is much scripture besides this, but it is a very unpopular position to hold.

God does not need our permission to save us, he requires our SUBMISSION. He will gladly save those who submit to his righteousness and trust Christ, he will in no way save a man who does not submit to him.

 

[DHK]

I avoid no one, nor have I avoided you. Do show where I "avoided" you.

Dictionary definitions are not a repository of Gods' truth. Are they?

Dead means incapable of saving self.

Sorry you didn't ask for nor like my sermon.

Next time put in your order, I'll make an attempt to accomodate.

Meaning of death? Nekros; dead, a corpse.

At least you gave an attempt this time.
1. Death does not mean "incapable of saving oneself."
2. Death does non mean "a corpse," or have the meaning of lifelessness.

This is why you have confusion when you read the Bible and do not understand simple words like dead, death, etc. If you don't know Bible terminology, how can you understand what the Bible says?

 

[Dr. Bob]

More than a little irritated. I "CLOSED" this thread and someone reopened it.

Putting the sign back on the door. After midnight. Closed.