True vs. False Spiritual Knowledge

Here is the passage about the lying spirit:
2 Chronicles 18

Then Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing on His right hand and His left. And the Lord said, 'Who will persuade Ahab king of Israel to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, 'I will persuade him.' The Lord said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the Lord said, 'You shall persuade him and also prevail; go out and do so.' Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you."

1. Ahab was lost and this most definitely was a punishment of him.

2. The Lord, because He is sovereign, uses anything He desires to accomplish His purpose. In this case, He used a wicked spirit to deceive the prophets.

3. On what grounds do we assume the prophets were true believers? Since they weren't, they lie anyways. Why do you struggle with the fact that God made sure of it?

4. A parallel N.T. understanding is found in Romans 1 where God gives the unrepentant a reprobate mind to defile themselves.

5. If you still struggle with the Sovereignty thing, consider this: in a war, a military unit will kill another. Who is to blame, the unit, commanding officer for ordering it, or the president for declaring war?

Now, you explain your difficulty with the passage.

 

1. Ahab was lost and this most definitely was a punishment of him.

I thought we had a God that seeks and saves that which was lost? If God is the same yesterday today and forever why has he seemed to "change" if God changes not?

2. The Lord, because He is sovereign, uses anything He desires to accomplish His purpose. In this case, He used a wicked spirit to deceive the prophets.

Perhaps even a Serpent? Why then did GOD DECIEVE Jeremiah?

Jeremiah 20:7 O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.

3. On what grounds do we assume the prophets were true believers? Since they weren't, they lie anyways. Why do you struggle with the fact that God made sure of it?

Well if God deceived Jeremiah then perhaps he's NOT a True prophet? Or do you think God had purpose in it for His good? If He is not a prophet we'll have to rip the book out of bibles now wouldn't we?

I don't understand your question in why you think I struggle with the fact that God made sure of it? What do you think I'm "struggling with"? I don't feel I'm struggling here at all.

4. A parallel N.T. understanding is found in Romans 1 where God gives the unrepentant a reprobate mind to defile themselves.

I'm surprised you didn't hook this up with this passage, but I myself connect the two...

2Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

I sincerely missed (perhaps me I'll admit openly) that I understand God gave Pharoah a hard heart but I didn't see Him mention that in reference to Ahab, but I could be mistaken because I truly don't know.

5. If you still struggle with the Sovereignty thing, consider this: in a war, a military unit will kill another. Who is to blame, the unit, commanding officer for ordering it, or the president for declaring war?

I don't question at all Gods Sovereignty what leads you to believe that?

What I am doing is asking honest questions.

Like if no lie is of the Truth why does God send a "lying Spirit"? If God is Truth why did He decieve Jeremiah because its stated God did. If God knew that Sin in us is afforded by the commandment why say, "thou shalt not"? For if there is no law there is no transgression. God knows all things am I correct? I believe He does.

Now seeing it as you described shows an untrustworthy God producing "doubt" in the hearer or in other words God is giving a Serpent here instead of bread. If Ahab sinned (for ALL have sinned) where is Gods mercy in this picture shown as such? Is it not written that Sin reigned over those who HAD NOT SINNED after the similitude of Adam? Then if thats true how could one help BUT to Sin if it "reigned" See? I think theres more complications in seeing this picture "as is" or in the letter. Christ came to seek and save that which was lost. Already being in the place of standing condemned.

I'm just seeing it "differently" as I shared and that to me makes God credible and brings no confusion to my heart as to "why" He did it see?

I have no problem with the verses whatsoever but I do however think its possible to see Gods goodness in it and as it relates to Christ. Christ says the scriptures testify of HIM and in just seeing what is presented I can't see Him in it, thats my point. An unbeliever can see that this is what its talking about. But wheres Christ in it?

In Him Kim

[ March 27, 2002, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Star ]

 

Preach, you said,

1. Mary did not type the Church. Show me that in Scripture

Gal 4:4-5. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a WOMAN, made under the law, To redeem THEM that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

(Paul preached the LIGHT of the gospel so as in Mary born as One man or Seed who fell to the ground and died as Jesus said tp produce many Sons of the Kingdom)

The Sword that would peirce "Her Soul" was that which reveal the thoughts of MANY HEARTS. Her Sword was theirs as well.

Luke 2:35 (Yea, a Sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Colosians 1:27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of glory:

John 16:9 Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?
John 16:20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.
John 16:21 A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

Thats why Jesus called her "Woman" not out of disrepect but as to who she represented (a bigger picture that Paul understood) At the Cross though pointing to His Disciple He said Woman BEHOLD THY SON.

Here is the picture of the blood of Abel (silent prophesy) of His blood that cried out from the ground (the earth to God) saying, "My God My God why has thou forsaken me"? There on the cross the sending of His Spirit to be born again in the hearts of many. The picture of Seth in scripture (whose name means God granted or appointed) Is seen as God granting us Eternal life in the Solid form of this picture testifying of the work of Christ in a mystery.

Paul laboured among them as Christ was being "formed" in the Church (The Woman as represented in scripture. As a Woman giving birth to her child, SO IT IS WITH YOU.

Did not Jesus say that hell was created for the devil and his angels? Is not death and hell seen as being thrown into the lake of fire? Is not Satan seen as being thrown into the lake of fire where his torment will continue forever and ever.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Tormented with "fire", and "brimstone" IN THE PRESENSE OF THE LAMB AND OF THE HOLY ANGELS?

Lake of fire or Second death = God (Heb 12:29) For our God [is] a consuming fire.

Brimstone=(Isaiah 30:33 ) the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

Rev 20:14 And DEATH and HELL were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE. This is the SECOND DEATH. (God destroys them).= Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh SHALL NOT BE HURT OF THE SECOND DEATH.

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with DEATH shall be DISANNULLED (CANCELLED MADE VOID), and YOUR AGREEMENT WITH HELL SHALL NOT STAND; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Hosea 13:14 I WILL RANSOM THEM from the POWER of the GRAVE; I WILL REDEEM THEM FROM DEATH: O death, I WILL BE THY PLAGUES; O grave, I WILL BE THY DESTRUCTION: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

HE IS ITS DESTRUCTION... God is also ITS PLAGUES. Seems God doesn't have a problem (in His Humility and Greatness to be considered as "Plagues"

He IS the Second Death, He IS the CONSUMING FIRE He will IS DEATHS DESTRUCTION he makes viod death and hell.

1Corinth 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, HE SHALL SUFFER LOSS: but HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; YET SO BY FIRE.

Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! WHO SHALL DELIVER ME FROM THIS BODY OF DEATH?

HE DOES!!

Mortality shall clothe itself with immortality. DEATH SWALLOWED UP IN LIFE. The Fire has REDEEMING QUALITIES.

1Corinth 15:55 O DEATH WHERE [is] THY STING? O grave, where [is] thy victory? (Torment gone)

1Corinth 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the STRENGTH OF SIN [is] THE LAW.

2Corinth 5:4 , that MORTALITY (BODY OF DEATH) might be SWALLOWED UP OF LIFE= Christ

1Corinth 15:54 This shall come to pass.... Death is swallowed up in victory.

Isaiah 25: *HE WILL SWALLOW UP DEATH IN VICTORY; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken [it].

So in an "Everlasting Fire" yes but I see it as the souls of men are "tried", and made "purified" for ever in order to enter the city. One can suffer loss yet be saved as it were by FIRE. The Fire is God it shows this.

God is Eternal so Him being the CONSUMING FIRE is also Eternal. His Word is a Fire and His Word is Eternal. His BREATH as BRIMSTONE His Breath is The Spirit also Eternal. Christ BREATHED ON THEM recieve ye the Holy Spirit. These are attributes of none other then God Himself.

Let us ask Paul. Paul, what do you think of Satan? "And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen." Thank you Paul. God and satan appear to be on friendly terms, right?

You haven't answered any of the points I have made yet? Paul was given a "messenger of Satan" a thorn in the flesh to buffet him because of the all surpassing greatness in the revelations he recieved. This "benefitted Paul". We are to "agree" with our adversary, not to dare say anything accusitory torward Him, thats interesting.

3. Your quote of David is grossly (surprise) out of context. The point was to bring a sacrifice while hiding sin in your heart is unacceptable before God. Instead, a broken heart (one of repentance) is a must for proper relationship and worship.

Hebrews 10:4-14 Talk to paul then about taking it out of context I didn't pull it out of the Old testament I used it as Paul did, your incorrect.

4. God communicates to us in a language that we understand. You have a self-made god that means something different than what he said. How insane is that? That is the language of the schrizophrenic(sp?).

Why then does it say this?
1Corinth 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.

Mathew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they SEEING SEE NOT; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

I'm sure there is a "tie" in the fact that Our Lord was crucified in Galgoltha which means "place of the skull".

If we could understand anything we would not need the Holy Spirit to lead us into all Truth. Our mind is not good enough or we wouldn't need the Mind of Christ.

5. Your bizarre tree in the garden theory is totally pointless. There existed no sin in the garden before Adam and Eve disobeyed God. What righteousness did either of them need to attain to? Please answer. Also, where do you find Paul saying the tree is a likeness of the Law?

Because the church as Paul said is compared to the Woman in the garden and said JUST AS THE WOMAN WAS DECIEVED He was afraid they (The Church) would be decieved. They kept returning to the Law saying a ZILLION TIMES about faith verses the law.

Paul said that SIN WAS AFFORDED BY THE COMMANDMENT. God said DON'T EAT OF THAT TREE. Meaning she never needed it (The law) Yet God is seen giving the Law to the Isrealites (in the cleaer pictures) for what purpose? to show your sin, seen as "nakedness" in the garden. They were naked prior to eating of the law and felt no shame the Tree (Law= principle) is seen as making them "aware" of their nakedness is this not true?

The Curse "originates" in the Garden, the clearer picture is at Siani but this shows the more vivid picture of the fall.

Neh 10:29 They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and ENTERED INTO A CURSE, and into an oath, TO WALK IN GODS LAW, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;

So If Jesus Christ is the SEED OF THE WOMAN in the Garden of God to accomplish what was screwed up there and its seen "later" (same curse different picture) as being the law, how do I err?

We should not walk by law right?
The law will show us were naked right?
The commandment Paul said He thought would bring "life" brought death (as in the garden).
Christ said think not that I will accuse you. Moses is the accuser He said in whom they trusted. The accuser of the brethern is cast down. The accusers (plural) now, are they that are still under the law. They are the ones throwing stones at others in judgement.

My post on the first part of this thread says it all. The Tree in the garden was the Law in a similitude. The VERY PRINCIPLES of The Law are seen there. The very principles Paul speaks of. And if JUST AS EVE was decieved so WE MIGHT also be to what does it speak to you of? For God does NOT WANT YOU TO EAT from THAT TREE BECAUSE WHERE THERE IS NO LAW THERE IS NO TRANSGRESSION. ONLY AFTER SHE ENTERED INTO THE LAW WAS SIN FOUND IN HER.

6. The Scripture says that satan entered Judas to do those things. It was a satanic thing to bring about the crucifiction of Christ. Read Acts 2 where Peter said that they took Christ by WICKED hands and crucified Him.

First off God purposed the Cross beforehand and it was God who brought it to pass. God puts in their hearts to accomplish HIS PURPOSE. In Zech HE is the ONE with the Sword coming against His Son. Jesus knew this thats why He said He was not bringing Peace BUT A Sword.

Mathew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a Sword.

Zech 13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man [that is] my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

(Strike the Shepherd and the sheep will scatter (disciples FLED) This is pictured in the "footnotes" as being in the gospels at the Time of betrayal.

In the Begining was The Word (Christ) and the Word (Christ) was With God AND THE WORD WAS GOD.

They work in agreement with one another they are ONE.
Why do you think He said, "The scriptures Testify of me? Gods plan was already foreknown. God hid the work of Christ in His foreknowledge.

7. In Matthew 10:34, Christ brought the sword, not the Father. The context is a sword that divides even families. If you searched Scripture for the parallel, it would be found in Heb.4:12. Yes, that is right, it is the sword of truth. Helloooooo!

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

MY POINT EXACTLY AS IN MARY AS A SIMILITUDE TO THE CHURCH.

The Sword in Zech is AGAINST HIS SHEPHERD CHRIST a SWORD SHALL PEIRCE HER SOUL (as prophesied to Mary) THAT THE THOUGHTS OF MANY HEARTS BE REVEALED= finds its substance and meaning in the lives of the believer = The Church.

Do you know why God gave two dreams to "pharoah"? Because God DOUBLES TO ESTABLISH SOMETHING. By the testimony of TWR THREE WITNESSES every matter will be ESTABLISHED. He shows Two pictures.

8. The Lord is the one who struck Christ. He accomplished this however by using WICKED people, including satan. This is called SOVEREIGNTY. For another example that confused you, look at the census of Israel taken by David.

This does not confuse me at all. God used Satan in accordance to His will and purpose. To lure the Woman to the Law (the shadow) and to show His love for her though she was unfaithful. The law would not permit the Jewish nation to accept their Messiah. The "drinking of blood" "eating of flesh" and many other things seen in the "natural context" of the law with their natural minds they would have been destined through their obedience to the law to sacrifice their Messiah. Through all these things God demonstrates His power and Soveriegn control knowing us all too well. They did exactly as He planned. Hiding it from them.

9. Christ did not reach outside the covenant. Christ is the mediator of the NEW COVENANT. The old covenant was between Jehovah and the Jews. The New Covenant is between Christ and all who are saved since the institution of it. Read all of Scripture in context; it helps.

I understand this. But as seen in scripture God is bringing an END to one covenant and reaching for the world as a mediator of a New covenant.

10. I reject your admonition to walk blindly. Your heart is deceitful and desperately wicked above all things. Do you really want to trust your heart? Many sincere people believe their own heart right to hell. If you don't repent, the same will be the same for you.

I never admonished you to walk blindly please give me my quote to do so. You might judge my heart but God sees it and knows me.

As I've shared there is no more hell. You keep your view of it I'll keep mine

You said that I don't believe in the trinity. I believe in ONE God. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They are ONE, Christ said they are one. So I see three AS ONE. Theres nothing unscriptural about that.

You asked me what I am...
I'm not affliated with any creed just a follower of Christ who loves His word and loves others as God has taught me to love. I am what I am by the grace of God.

In Him Kim

[ March 28, 2002, 01:45 AM: Message edited by: Star ]

 

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Tormented with "fire", and "brimstone" IN THE PRESENSE OF THE LAMB AND OF THE HOLY ANGELS?

This is the sort of contextual error I tried to bring to light in a different section, different thread.

The pre-conceived notion is that ALL will be thrown into the fire, both believers and unbelievers. Taken by itself, Rev 14:10 certainly seems to support that.

But hey, wait a minute: This guy Don said something about "context," didn't he? Wonder what he meant by that?

Oh, perhaps this is it: (Rev 14:9) "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand," which is then immediately followed by "the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God."

And oh my, look at that verse right after 14:10 (as in, Rev 14:11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Wow. Look at that. In context, Rev 14:10 actually says that those that worship the Beast, and take the mark, will be the ones that drink of the wine of the wrath of God.

Go figure.

In fact, we believers, we in Christ, are promised something entirely different: (Rev 3:5) He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

Christ said THEY WOULD INDEED DRINK OF THE CUP. HE IS SEEN ADMISTERING IT IN THE OLD TESTAMENT (See below)

Psalm 51:9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

Isaiah 44:2 I have BLOTTED OUT, AS A THICK CLOUD, THY TRANSGRESSIONS, and, AS A CLOUD, THY: RETURNED TO ME; for I HAVE REDEEMED THEE.

Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

For ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD.

He blots out our "transgressions" the POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW the STING OF DEATH IS SIN, He makes the law no more.

This is the Torment of the Man who was (Naked= under law) among the Tombs= death, CUTTING HIMSELF WITH STONES= COMMANDS OF GOD CRYING DAY AND NIGHT, believing Christ has come to TORMENT He WAS BOUND IN CHAINS. CHRIST SETS HIM FREE. He was BOUND UNDER THE LAW, this is a similitude. WHO WILL SAVE HIM FROM THIS BODY OF DEATH (As Paul said) GOD DOES as CHRIST (THE TRUTH) SETS HIM FREE. The law makes NOTHING PERFECT. IT EMPOWERS SIN. If your STRENGTH IS THE LAW it SHALL WEAKEN YOU.

Psalm 109:13 Let his posterity be cut off; [and] in the generation following let THEIR NAME be BLOTTED OUT.

Peter, Paul, etc all recieve a "new name" a new creation IN CHRIST, OLD HAS PASSED.

MORTALITY SWALLOWED UP IN LIFE

Their Name is their "nature" He blotts out your sins as a thick cloud, the smoke of their Torment as seen in the picture of the man naked (under law) in tombs (death) CUTTING HIMSELF DAY AND NIGHT, Christ SETS HIM FREE FROM THE TORMENT, the smoke of THEIR TORMENT ascends up. Now the Fire is as a FIRE THAT SAVES = Saved as YET BY FIRE.

This whole thing has its roots here.

Numbers 5:18 And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which [is] the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
Numbers 5:19-22 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse: But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband: Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell; And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.

HERES WHAT I SEE in this....
(Numbers 5:23) The PREIST writes down CURSES in a book (((BLOTS THEM OUT))) with bitter water. (next verse) He CAUSES HER (the woman) to drink the water that causes the curse. (Ye shall indeed drink my cup Christ says)
*(same principle seducing her to the tree which is the Law = "under the law under a "curse")

Christ redeemed those from under the law by taking the "curses" to BLOT OUT their iniquities, in short this seems to indicate who the unfaithful wife is.

The unfaithful wife (the woman) Isreal is seen taking an oath, "all that the Lord says WE WILL DO"
***** HERES THE OUTCOME*****
(Neh. 10:29)
They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and ENTERED INTO A CURSE, and INTO AN OATH,TO WALK IN GOD'S LAW, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;

This is the curse that Christ took upon Himself.

I hate all the verse type stuff, I thought I'd wrap it up without it.

She(Isreal) is charged by an oath (her oath was to "walk in Gods Law" binding herself to a curse) and through Christ she is free from that bitter water(The Law)which brings a curse.
The Woman (Isreal) is CAUSED (or made to) to drink this bitter water that CAUSES a CURSE. It then reads IT SHALL COME TO PASS (future tense meaning prophesy)that if she had been "unfaithful" the curse shall enter her causing her THIGH TO ROT(refers to the leg she stands on), her strength is removed see below) and belly to swell (enlarges). Christ took that curse, nailing the law and its commandments that stood opposed to us. So the woman in the verse is Free.

Prov. 20:27 The spirit of man [is] the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

THIGH
Isaiah31:3 Now the Egyptians [are] men, and not God; and their HORSES FLESH, and NOT spirit.
Psalm 147:10 He delighteth not in the STRENGTH OF HORSES: he taketh not pleasure IN THE LEGS OF A MAN.
To make thy "THIGH" to Rot is to "remove your strength"... ( the leg you stand on) Thus under the Law you become weaker. There's no strength in it to "deliver"
Judges 15:8 And he smote them hip and thigh with a great slaughter:
Prov 20:29 The glory of young men [is] their STRENGTH

I'm running out the door (tax season) so I can't spend too much time here.

In Him Kim

[ March 28, 2002, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: Star ]