Truly Word-For-Word? Really?

[Greektim]

Many of us are well past our pay grade on this subject. You have some here who compare translations and that is the extent of their input. We have others like me who know the biblical languages but are not quite as savy on translation theory. Then we have JoJ who is actually doing translation (into a receptor language that has little in common with the source language I might add; correct me if I am wrong). I don't know of any others on the BB that are in the 3rd camp. So I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

I actually find reading about translation theory rather dull. I've come to the place where I just don't bleeding care anymore. Most people have no idea the amount of brain power that has gone into the field of translation.

 

[Rippon]

Then we have JoJ who is actually doing translation (into a receptor language that has little in common with the source language I might add; correct me if I am wrong).

Of course you are right. Many of the sacred cows that some English Bible translation provacateurs ramble on about --"the only proper way to render this or that" --but those almost sacred-like pronouncements often do noty apply to a language like Japanese. Dave Brunn brought this out in his book.

I actually find reading about translation theory rather dull. I've come to the place where I just don't bleeding care anymore. Most people have no idea the amount of brain power that has gone into the field of translation.

So reading about it is rather dull for you yet you recognize that a great deal of brain power has gone into it. Okay.

 

[John of Japan]

Then we have JoJ who is actually doing translation (into a receptor language that has little in common with the source language I might add; correct me if I am wrong).

I'm not sure if there is a language more different from Greek than Japanese:
Greek has participles and infinitives, Japanese does not.
Greek has a perfect and future tenses, Japanese does not.
Greek has a definite article, Japanese has no articles.
Greek is more free in syntax, Japanese must have the verb at the end.

And so forth!

As for translation theory, there was so much I didn't understand before I actually started translating! And then I studied both Bible trans. and secular theory on my own and made some more changes in my thinking.

Nowadays I like this definition rather than "word for word" (which no one on this thread has yet defined:
Verbatim translation: “Complete translation of every word of the original text” (Morry Sofer. The Translator’s Handbook, 3rd rev. ed. Rockville, MA: Schreiber Publishing, Inc., 1996, 1998, 1999, 403).

 

[Rippon]

Verbatim translation: “Complete translation of every word of the original text” (Morry Sofer. The Translator’s Handbook, 3rd rev. ed. Rockville, MA: Schreiber Publishing, Inc., 1996, 1998, 1999, 403).

John you know that is not possible. You have acknowleged that before. Some Greek and Hebrew words are not translated in every translation. (By the way,are translating only the New Testament?)

 

[John of Japan]

John you know that is not possible. You have acknowleged that before. Some Greek and Hebrew words are not translated in every translation. (By the way,are translating only the New Testament?)

I'd say it's 95% possible, or whatever percent of the NT is taken up by the Greek article. It's very hard to get the sense of the Greek article into Japanese, but other than that we can find a semantic equivalent for virtually all Greek words.

Uncle Miya and I have been working on the book of Psalms since we finished the 2nd draft of the NT, but boy is my Hebrew rusty!

Interestingly enough, I find that translating Hebrew poetry can be done more freely than we did the NT. Japanese poetry is extremely different from Hebrew poetry, but we don't even try to put it into Japanese poetic form. That would be virtually impossible.

 

[Greektim]

Of course you are right. Many of the sacred cows that some English Bible translation provacateurs ramble on about --"the only proper way to render this or that" --but those almost sacred-like pronouncements often do noty apply to a language like Japanese. Dave Brunn brought this out in his book.

So reading about it is rather dull for you yet you recognize that a great deal of brain power has gone into it. Okay.

Yes... reading it is dull but I know it takes a great deal of brain power. That is not at odds with one another.

 

[Rippon]

Uncle Miya and I have been working on the book of Psalms since we finished the 2nd draft of the NT, but boy is my Hebrew rusty!

Interestingly enough, I find that translating Hebrew poetry can be done more freely than we did the NT.

Since your Hebrew is rusty how are you able to translate the Hebrew to Japanese? Do you consult commentaries --Hebrew word studies or what？Will you rely more on English translations of the OT? Perhaps you have a Hebrew expert in America you collaborate with?

Will your New Testament be issued first and then a few years down the line you will publish the Old Tesament? I can't imagine that you would wait until the Old Testament portion is finished first.

 

[John of Japan]

Since your Hebrew is rusty how are you able to translate the Hebrew to Japanese? Do you consult commentaries --Hebrew word studies or what？Will you rely more on English translations of the OT? Perhaps you have a Hebrew expert in America you collaborate with?

I'm re-learning as I go, consulting commentaries (Keil & Delitszch is very useful), the BDB lexicon, a digital grammar, various translations in Japanese & English, doing word searches to find out the usage and meaning of particular Hebrew words. Hopefully I can find someone much better than I am to correct and edit, but no one is lined up yet.

Will your New Testament be issued first and then a few years down the line you will publish the Old Testament? I can't imagine that you would wait until the Old Testament portion is finished first.

We hope to publish a John-Romans shortly and the NT within the year, God willing (if I can finish the final editing). The OT project is tentative until we get more translators (one man may go full time and I've asked him to start Genesis), but I have hopes of a "NT & Psalms" someday. One option is revising the public domain Bungo (Classical Japanese) OT into modern Japanese, but Uncle Miya didn't want to do that.

 

[Rippon]

The OT project is tentative until we get more translators (one man may go full time and I've asked him to start Genesis), but I have hopes of a "NT & Psalms" someday. One option is revising the public domain Bungo (Classical Japanese) OT into modern Japanese, but Uncle Miya didn't want to do that.

What was his reasoning? It sure would be helpful to use the Bungo as a base or foundation to work from. Otherwise you'll have to start by scratch. Hmm..39 books. It's not like you have a lot of short books such as Obadiah,Jonah and Haggai.

 

[John of Japan]

What was his reasoning? It sure would be helpful to use the Bungo as a base or foundation to work from. Otherwise you'll have to start by scratch. Hmm..39 books. It's not like you have a lot of short books such as Obadiah,Jonah and Haggai.

Uncle Miya's reasoning was, "I don't want to." :laugh: Hard to tell with him, other than that. He actually wanted to revise our NT after we finished it, but I had others working on that and besides, he never translates the same way, so the NT would never have gotten done! :flower: So I figured, let's give Psalms a go.

 

[Yeshua1]

Uncle Miya's reasoning was, "I don't want to." :laugh: Hard to tell with him, other than that. He actually wanted to revise our NT after we finished it, but I had others working on that and besides, he never translates the same way, so the NT would never have gotten done! :flower: So I figured, let's give Psalms a go.

can a DE version even hold to a verbal plenary view of originals, or is that for translators holding to a formal view of translation only?

 

[John of Japan]

can a DE version even hold to a verbal plenary view of originals, or is that for translators holding to a formal view of translation only?

Many DE translators hold to a verbal-plenary view of inspiration. Having said that, Nida did not, but believed the Bible had many errors. He knew that his theory of translation would be offensive to those who do hold to verbal-plenary inspiration, though, and structured his books accordingly to convince those who didn't agree with him on inspiration.

 

[Yeshua1]

Many DE translators hold to a verbal-plenary view of inspiration. Having said that, Nida did not, but believed the Bible had many errors. He knew that his theory of translation would be offensive to those who do hold to verbal-plenary inspiration, though, and structured his books accordingly to convince those who didn't agree with him on inspiration.

Know that the translators for both the Nasb/Nkjv had to ascribe to a verbal-plenary view on scriptures, did other teams on say Niv/Esv also?

 

[John of Japan]

Know that the translators for both the Nasb/Nkjv had to ascribe to a verbal-plenary view on scriptures, did other teams on say Niv/Esv also?

Yes, I've heard that.