Trump prayer chain

[Matt Janes]

Lord God, send forth your Holy Spirit to give Enlightenment and understanding to all of the Earth.

Clothe Donald Trump and all who seek the truth, especially politicians, in the full armor of God, the helmet of salvation, the breastplate of righteousness, the sword of the spirit, The Shield of Faith, the gospel of peace on their feet, the belt of Truth around their waist,

May all enemy Spirits be bound and incapacitated, in Jesus name! Let the devil confuse people and lead people astray no longer in Jesus name.

I stand in the authority of Christ and bind all evil spirits in our world that they would stop causing confusion , delusion, division, and hatred!

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I didn't try to get anyone to pray to Mary. I simply left a prayer regarding my method of invoking the host of Heaven. I asked the souls in heaven to pray for Donald Trump. I don't see what the big deal that is.

In Christianity, it's a huge deal, as we're prohibited from praying to the dead and from praying to anyone but God.

So I asked another member of the body of Christ to intercede for someone.

No, you prayed to Mary, dead people, and angels.

I really don't see anything in the New Covenant or new testament that condemns such a practice.

Even if this were true, and we can see that it's not, it's prohibited in the Old Testament. Something that's already prohibited doesn't need to be re-prohibited.

A lot of what was forbidden in the Old Testament is permitted for Christians.

No, the only thing permitted now that was forbidden then are those laws that were given specifically to Israel. God gave certain laws to Israel in order to mark them as a Messianic nation and as a people from whom the Messiah would one day come. While there is some overlap between these laws and moral laws, they're not the same thing.

That one category of laws is no longer in effect does not mean that all laws are no longer in effect. That's why homosexuality is still prohibited while eating shellfish is not.

The Old Testament says to kill people for working on the wrong day of the week. No one in their right mind does that because we have a new covenant.

The New Covenant refers to how we relate to God, not the repeal of God's laws.

You'll have to find something other than Old Testament scriptures.

No thanks. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

I'm sure I can point out plenty of scriptures in the Old Testament that you don't think should be followed either.

I'll bet you can't.

Regarding the church. Every Church on the face of the Earth for 1,500 years was Catholic or Orthodox.

A very common misconception, but a misconception, nonetheless.

All of those churchs approved of invoking the souls in heaven.

If we wanted to be part of those churches, we wouldn't have had the Reformation.

However, I find it extremely harmless to invoke the souls in heaven and ask for their prayers.

Looking to dead people for your hope and incurring the wrath of God is not "harmless". You need to repent.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I stand in the authority of Christ and bind all evil spirits

Hey, look, everybody! I just found the long lost Eight Son of Sceva!

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I asked God if there was something wrong with me honoring his mother. He said, "consider that Mary gave birth to God. why would it bother me that you honor and respect my mother? At the wedding at Cana she got me to do what I didn't even want to do, but in obedience to the Commandment "honor your father and your mother", and in obedience to her request, I worked my first miracle reluctantly and turned water into wine. That is an example of how I listen to my mother's requests and obey them".

OK. Several problems with this.

First, God did not speak to you extra-Biblically. God speaks through His Word, not through subjective and esoteric experiences.

Even if God had spoken to you extra-Biblically, you would have still been commanded to test it by examining it with God's Word.

Second, why would you need to "ask God", when God has already spoken about this matter?

Third, why would God contradict Himself?

Fourth, you weren't merely "honoring" Mary. You were praying to her.

Fifth, your understanding of the nature of God seems to be very Oneness.

Should Mary be worshipped?. No that's idolatry.

Then why pray to her, when prayer, in the Bible, is seen as a form of worship?

The scripture says all generations will call her blessed.

By all means, call her blessed. But you didn't merely call her blessed. You prayed to her.

I asked for her help. And that is supposed to offend God in what way?

If offends God a) because you show that you have no regard for His commands and b) because you're ascribing power and authority to a dead woman that rightfully belong only to Him.

 

[Matt Janes]

In Christianity, it's a huge deal, as we're prohibited from praying to the dead and from praying to anyone but God.



No, you prayed to Mary, dead people, and angels.



Even if this were true, and we can see that it's not, it's prohibited in the Old Testament. Something that's already prohibited doesn't need to be re-prohibited.



No, the only thing permitted now that was forbidden then are those laws that were given specifically to Israel. God gave certain laws to Israel in order to mark them as a Messianic nation and as a people from whom the Messiah would one day come. While there is some overlap between these laws and moral laws, they're not the same thing.

That one category of laws is no longer in effect does not mean that all laws are no longer in effect. That's why homosexuality is still prohibited while eating shellfish is not.



The New Covenant refers to how we relate to God, not the repeal of God's laws.



No thanks. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.



I'll bet you can't.



A very common misconception, but a misconception, nonetheless.



If we wanted to be part of those churches, we wouldn't have had the Reformation.



Looking to dead people for your hope and incurring the wrath of God is not "harmless". You need to repent.

Holding a seance to contact the souls in Sheol for information is forbidden. Asking a friend in heaven to pray for you is not forbidden anywhere.

Scripture says the gospel was preached even to the dead.

No need to keep arguing. It's useless. We are all one body in Christ, branches connected to the True Vine, we are connected to the souls in heaven.

We'll simply have to disagree on this because you aren't going to convince me otherwise. I've experienced a lot of Grace from the souls in heaven and their intercession.

Scripture promises that the holy spirit will guide us, and I prayed to the Holy Spirit about this many times, and gotten confirmation that it is not making God angry.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Holding a seance to contact the souls in Sheol for information is forbidden. Asking a friend in heaven to pray for you is not forbidden anywhere.

Yep. Still forbidden. Both are prohibited contact with the dead. The only difference is the means by which you contacted them.

Second, you did not merely "ask a friend", you prayed to a dead person.

No need to keep arguing. It's useless. We are all one body in Christ, branches connected to the True Vine, we are connected to the souls in heaven.

"We" are not, as your repeated heresies show you to not be a part of the Body of Christ.

Scripture promises that the holy spirit will guide us, and I prayed to the Holy Spirit about this many times, and gotten confirmation that it is not making God angry.

Scripture says that the Holy Spirit will guide us through the illumination of God's Word, not through subjective and esoteric experiences.

 

[Matt Janes]

OK. Several problems with this.

First, God did not speak to you extra-Biblically. God speaks through His Word, not through subjective and esoteric experiences.

Even if God had spoken to you extra-Biblically, you would have still been commanded to test it by examining it with God's Word.

Second, why would you need to "ask God", when God has already spoken about this matter?

Third, why would God contradict Himself?

Fourth, you weren't merely "honoring" Mary. You were praying to her.

Fifth, your understanding of the nature of God seems to be very Oneness.



Then why pray to her, when prayer, in the Bible, is seen as a form of worship?



By all means, call her blessed. But you didn't merely call her blessed. You prayed to her.



If offends God a) because you show that you have no regard for His commands and b) because you're ascribing power and authority to a dead woman that rightfully belong only to Him.

You are preaching a different gospel and a doctrine that is not found in the Bible. No where does the bible say we have to test everything with God's word. No where does the bible say that a belief must be found in the Bible to be true.

Besides, no where in the Bible does it say we are forbidden from asking a friend in heaven to pray for us.

Contacting a medium for information is different. No one knows who which Spirits are speaking to that Medium, and no one knows which Spirits are being summoned in the Seance. God had every good reason to tell his people not to contact mediums and try to gather information from the underworld.

I did not hold a seance or contact a medium in the Op. I asked the righteous souls in heaven to bless and pray for Donald Trump.

There is a difference.

God never said we cant do that.

Sometimes God changes his mind as well. Moses got God to repent of the evil that he planned on doing to Israel. God does not always do what he says he's going to do.

Also, what God forbids at one time in history, he sometimes later permits, that is very biblical.

 

[Matt Janes]

Yep. Still forbidden. Both are prohibited contact with the dead. The only difference is the means by which you contacted them.

Second, you did not merely "ask a friend", you prayed to a dead person.



"We" are not, as your repeated heresies show you to not be a part of the Body of Christ.



Scripture says that the Holy Spirit will guide us through the illumination of God's Word, not through subjective and esoteric experiences.

Wrong again!

The word of God came too many people and they didn't have to test everything according to God's word. Many people were illiterate and did not have copies of the scriptures. There was no printing press.

The Old Testament prophets like Moses didn't go test everything God said with a text.

You insist that the Holy Spirit only enlightens people through God's word. That is simply false. That isn't the first false thing you've said so far.

The Bible has many examples of God communicating new commands to people without there being anyone to test God's word to see if it lined up.

In the book of Acts, at the Council of Jerusalem, the apostles decided that people no longer needed to be circumcised. It was a decision that totally contradicted scripture. They were permitted to make a decision that contradicted scripture at that time, because as Church Authority they had the ability to do so by the Holy Spirit.

Your premise is easily proven false by the Bible.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

You are preaching a different gospel and a doctrine that is not found in the Bible.

...says the guy who prays to dead people and claims to have extra-Biblical revelation from God.

No where does the bible say we have to test everything with God's word.

See 1 Thess 5:21-22.

Besides, no where in the Bible does it say we are forbidden from asking a friend in heaven to pray for us.

Actually, the Bible condemns contacting the dead in numerous verses, as well as praying to anyone other than God.

Contacting a medium for information is different.

That's your distinction, not God's.

I did not hold a seance or contact a medium in the Op. I asked the righteous souls in heaven to bless and pray for Donald Trump.

How are dead people supposed to bless Donald Trump? Why wasn't God sufficient to do those things?

Sometimes God changes his mind as well.

If God changes His mind and allows us to practice necromancy, I'm sure He'll let us know. Until then, we Christians go by what the scriptures say.

Moses got God to repent of the evil that he planned on doing to Israel. God does not always do what he says he's going to do.

Actually, He does. God doesn't change His mind in the sense that we might say, "I really wanted a hamburger, but now I think I'm hungry for a hot dog".

Every time we see God "repenting" in scripture, it's in the context of a condition being fulfilled, not of God being decisive.

Also, what God forbids at one time in history, he sometimes later permits, that is very biblical.

You said this before. I already refuted this.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Wrong again!

The word of God came too many people and they didn't have to test everything according to God's word.

Yes, actually God's command to test all things, to test the spirits, is axiomatic.

Many people were illiterate and did not have copies of the scriptures. There was no printing press.

The Old Testament prophets like Moses didn't go test everything God said with a text.

That's because Moses communed with God directly and was His prophet. When a prophet speaks, that is, by definition, God's Word.

You insist that the Holy Spirit only enlightens people through God's word. That is simply false. That isn't the first false thing you've said so far.

OK. I can only tell you what the Word of God says. I can't make you believe it.

The Bible has many examples of God communicating new commands to people without there being anyone to test God's word to see if it lined up.

Such as...?

In the book of Acts, at the Council of Jerusalem, the apostles decided that people no longer needed to be circumcised. It was a decision that totally contradicted scripture.

No, it didn't contradict scripture. The covenant represented by circumcision was fulfilled.

They were permitted to make a decision that contradicted scripture at that time, because as Church Authority they had the ability to do so by the Holy Spirit.

So then, you are Catholic.

Your premise is easily proven false by the Bible.

Show that verse.

 

[Matt Janes]

...says the guy who prays to dead people and claims to have extra-Biblical revelation from God.



See 1 Thess 5:21-22.



Actually, the Bible condemns contacting the dead in numerous verses, as well as praying to anyone other than God.



That's your distinction, not God's.



How are dead people supposed to bless Donald Trump? Why wasn't God sufficient to do those things?



If God changes His mind and allows us to practice necromancy, I'm sure He'll let us know. Until then, we Christians go by what the scriptures say.



Actually, He does. God doesn't change His mind in the sense that we might say, "I really wanted a hamburger, but now I think I'm hungry for a hot dog".

Every time we see God "repenting" in scripture, it's in the context of a condition being fulfilled, not of God being decisive.



You said this before. I already refuted this.

You didn't refute anything. Who is the final Authority that decides which parts of the Old Testament need to be obeyed and which parts do not?

I can prove you didn't refute anything and in fact you were the one who got refuted. You said the Holy Spirit only enlightens us through God's word. In the Council of Jerusalem, the apostles made a decision that totally contradicted all the word of God on text at that time. They had the authority to do so because they were the church Authority Under the Influence of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, the Holy Spirit gave us a great example of how church Authority can make a decision that totally contradicts scripture.

Circumcision was very important, and the apostles got the word from God that people didn't need to be circumcised anymore.

They did not test it according to any text. The only text available was Old Testament text , and their decision totally contradicted that. It is biblical that church authorities can hold a council that can even contradict scripture and approve what was formerly not okay.

You are taking the Old Testament verse out of context.
"Don’t try to learn what will happen in the future by talking to a fortuneteller or by going to a magician, a witch, or a sorcerer.Don’t let anyone try to put magic spells on other people. Don’t let any of your people become a medium or a wizard. And no one should try to talk with someone who has died."

God was condemning the powers of Darkness. Those were dark occult powers of magic and sorcery and trying to get information about what will happen in the future from sources of the underworld.

That's not what I'm doing, so sorry my friend, you're wrong again, and I have proven it.

 

[Matt Janes]

Yes, actually God's command to test all things, to test the spirits, is axiomatic.

Many people were illiterate and did not have copies of the scriptures. There was no printing press.



That's because Moses communed with God directly and was His prophet. When a prophet speaks, that is, by definition, God's Word.



OK. I can only tell you what the Word of God says. I can't make you believe it.



Such as...?



No, it didn't contradict scripture. The covenant represented by circumcision was fulfilled.



So then, you are Catholic.



Show that verse.

Acts 15
Google it. They didn't have to test to see if it lined up with God's word, they simply followed the holy spirit's new command and did the opposite of what God's word said.

No I'm not Catholic. I don't embrace the Dogma. If Catholicism has true Doctrine I shall find out in this life or the next.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

You didn't refute anything. Who is the final Authority that decides which parts of the Old Testament need to be obeyed and which parts do not?

Scripture.

I can prove you didn't refute anything and in fact you were the one who got refuted. You said the Holy Spirit only enlightens us through God's word. In the Council of Jerusalem, the apostles made a decision that totally contradicted all the word of God on text at that time. They had the authority to do so because they were the church Authority Under the Influence of the Holy Spirit.

Actually, they didn't contradict anything. Christ, Himself, said He would fulfil the Old Covenant and usher in a new and better covenant in Luke 22:20.

Circumcision was very important, and the apostles got the word from God that people didn't need to be circumcised anymore.

But not extra-Biblically. They believed the scriptures and believed the teachings of Christ.

They did not test it according to any text.

How do you know this?

The only text available was Old Testament text

First of all, the Old Testament is still scripture.

Second, many of them learned directly from Jesus.

It is biblical that church authorities can hold a council that can even contradict scripture and approve what was formerly not okay.

Please cite the verse that says that church authorities can contradict scripture and approve what is forbidden.

You are taking the Old Testament verse out of context.

...says the guy who believes the Council of Jerusalem found some mystery verse that allowed them to contradict scripture.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Acts 15 Google it.

No. You made the claim. That means it's your responsibility to back it up, not my responsibility to go on a wild goose chase to do your job for you.

No I'm not Catholic. I don't embrace the Dogma. If Catholicism has true Doctrine I shall find out in this life or the next.

You pray to Mary, believing she has the power to answer prayers and protect and bless people, you believe "church authorities" have the authority to contradict the Word of God. You're Catholic.

The Council of Jerusalem was saying that Christians didn't need to obey the Mosaic law. That contradicted all the scriptures of the time

I disagree. I believe scripture is very clear that Christ fulfilled the old covenant and ushered in a new and better covenant.

So you are the ultimate Authority that decides which Old Testament scripture should be followed and what context their in, and which should not?

No. The analogy of scripture is the ultimate authority, just like I told you the last time you asked me.

So you and I have read the same verse and come to opposite conclusions. Who is the final Authority that decides who's right and who's wrong?

Ultimately, the Word of God. However, we also have lesser authorities, such as the Church and various creeds, confessions, and catechisms, none of which suggest that contact with the dead, prayer to the dead, or prayer to anyone other than God is acceptable.

Actually it's completely biblical that the apostles contradicted what was available as the word of God at that time.

Then you should have no problem showing us that verse.

God does not just Enlighten people through scripture. Your premise is simply unbiblical and false.

So you say.

 

[Matt Janes]

Scripture.



Actually, they didn't contradict anything. Christ, Himself, said He would fulfil the Old Covenant and usher in a new and better covenant in Luke 22:20.



But not extra-Biblically. They believed the scriptures and believed the teachings of Christ.



How do you know this?



First of all, the Old Testament is still scripture.

Second, many of them learned directly from Jesus.



Please cite the verse that says that church authorities can contradict scripture and approve what is forbidden.



...says the guy who believes the Council of Jerusalem found some mystery verse that allowed them to contradict scripture.

The Council of Jerusalem was saying that Christians didn't need to obey the Mosaic law. That contradicted all the scriptures of the time

Also,
, what is being condemned in the texts from Deuteronomy and Isaiah is conjuring up the dead through wizards and mediums, especially for the purpose of gaining information, not asking a Heavenly being to pray for you...

So you are the ultimate Authority that decides which Old Testament scripture should be followed and what context their in, and which should not? When I read those verses, it is clear and obvious to me that what God is condemning is contacting the spirits of the underworld and using magic, sorcery, and fortune-telling, and gaining hidden knowledge, none of which I'm doing.

So you and I have read the same verse and come to opposite conclusions. Who is the final Authority that decides who's right and who's wrong?

 

[Matt Janes]

No. You made the claim. That means it's your responsibility to back it up, not my responsibility to go on a wild goose chase to do your job for you.



You pray to Mary, believing she has the power to answer prayers and protect and bless people, you believe "church authorities" have the authority to contradict the Word of God. You're Catholic.

Actually it's completely biblical that the apostles contradicted what was available as the word of God at that time.

Acts 15
But some men came down from Judea and were teaching zthe brothers, “Unless you are acircumcised baccording to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” cdebate with them, Paul and Barnabas and dsome of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to ethe apostles and the elders about this question. fbeing sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, gdescribing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and hbrought great joy to all ithe brothers.1 jWhen they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and kthe apostles and the elders, and gthey declared all that God had done with them. lthe party of the Pharisees rose up and said, m“It is necessary nto circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.”

oThe kapostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. pdebate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, qthat by my mouth the Gentiles should hear rthe word of sthe gospel and believe. twho knows the heart, ubore witness to them, vby giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, whe made no distinction between us and them, xhaving cleansed their hearts yby faith. zare you putting God to the test aby placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples bthat neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? cbelieve that we will be dsaved through ethe grace of the Lord Jesus, wjust as they will.”

12 And all the assembly fell silent"

God does not just Enlighten people through scripture. Your premise is simply unbiblical and false. That decision clearly and blatantly contradicted the Old Testament scriptures that were available at that time.

By the way I'm on a phone, which is why Im hesitant to copy and paste anything

 

[Matt Janes]

You say God's word is the final Authority that decides who is right. I've just shown you the correct context of what that verse says. Since both of us are in disagreement. There's no where to turn But the Holy Spirit, because we both read the same verse and come to opposite conclusions... The Bible alone is not going to solve the problem. You have to take a verse into context.

Jesus said if your eye causes you to sin pluck it out. He said faith of a mustard seed can move mountains. You can't take it literally... God often spoke in ways that are not meant to be taken literally.... you have to look at the context.

Likewise, I see clearly that the Old Testament scriptures were condemning contacting Spirits for knowledge, contacting mediums, contacting sorcerers, using magic, and using the powers of the underworld and occult.

 

[Matt Janes]

Each time I asked you, you said scripture is the final Authority for deciding who's right and settling Doctrinal disputes.. Yet you fail to show me a scripture verse that declares that.

That is an unbiblical Doctrine... Scripture proves it to be false

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Honestly, don't care. I've wasted too much time trying to talk sense to you already.

You came to a Baptist message board promoting paganism and Catholicism and you tell me I'm preaching a false Gospel.

The Bible says we shouldn't argue with fools according to their folly and I probably should have invoked that rule seven or eight posts ago.

But better late than never.

 

[Matt Janes]

Honestly, don't care. I've wasted too much time trying to talk sense to you already.

You came to a Baptist message board promoting paganism and Catholicism and you tell me I'm preaching a false Gospel.

The Bible says we shouldn't argue with fools according to their folly and I probably should have invoked that rule seven or eight posts ago.

But better late than never.

You preach false Doctrine because you suggest everything must be tested according to scripture, when the Bible never says that , and in fact shows the opposite to be true!

And I have proven that I'm not promoting Paganism. The word pagan originated as a term to identify polytheists.

I have said nothing to promote polytheism.

Have a good night! God bless!