Trusting Jesus = Justification

Yelsew, no one said that faith isn't the cornerstone of salvation. The premise is "faith alone" not "love alone" or "works alone". The scriptures are very clear on this, saving faith must work through love and hope.

And to answer your question, yes.

 

If the answer to my question is "yes" that will be a shock to all those who came to faith in Jesus out of hating, evil doing, dispair, hopelessness, and depravity. So what happens to them since they do not qualify for Salvation by your definition?

 

Well, I am sorry to dissappoint you Yelsew, but the gate to heaven is very narrow and many will not make it through. Don't you know that evildoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Anyone who professes a belief in Christ yet continues to live by his old habits and do evil and harm will not see heaven. That has nothing to do with people intitially coming to Christ in a fallen and depraved state for we all come to Christ at first in such a state.

 

I have a question for those of you of the 'Just Jesus' ilk.

Can someone who trusts in Jesus, but continues to live by the flesh have confidence in his salvation?

 

Just to make a clarification.. In Catholic theology, "justification" is the action attributed to the work of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity - the "Son" - and "sanctification" is the action attributed to the work of the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity - the "Holy Spirit" - and both actions are inseparable.

The Council of Trent defined our justification as our sonship in Jesus Christ, and since we grow in sonship through sanctification, our justification is both initial (at the moment of baptism, when we become children of God) as well as ongoing (as we grow in sonship through the process of sanctification).

Much of the hoopla that goes on between Protestants and Catholics regarding Justification and Sanctification entails each side talking past one another, without either side listening.

It should also be noted that Catholics do not believe they have any righteousness of their own accord when they stand before God. All of our righteousness is that given to the Christian through Jesus Christ by sharing in his life, and all of that is gift/grace. Only Jesus was able to bear the curses of the Old Covenant and justify humanity before the Father, and it is only in Jesus that we have any standing before the Father as his children, in right relationship with God: that is, our sonship, our justification.

 

Hi Ray,

You wrote, "Anything but Christ's righteousness [Romans 3:22] is but filthy rags and is not proper attire for Heaven."

I encourage you to read a short and incredibly fascinating text by N.T. Wright (one of the most prominent contemporary Protestant Biblical scholars of our day) entitled "What Saint Paul Really Said". It promulgates what is called The New Perspective in Biblical scholarship.

In this text (and in many other writings), Wright demonstrates that the "righteousness of God" is not some inner quality of God that we participate in either forensically or even intrinsically. He shows that the "righteousness of God", from a Hebrew Covenantal viewpoint, is God's covenant faithfulness - that God kept the covenant both on his end and on our end through the person of Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:22 is best translated as "the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe", for it was through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ in his life and Passion that the curses of the Old Covenant were undertaken by Jesus Christ, who serves as mankind's representative before God. When Jesus undertook the curses of the Old Covenant through his ultimate faithfulness, "the righteousness of God" was "manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets" (Romans 3:21).

Unfortunately, historical Protestantism completely lost a covenantal view when reading Scripture - to its demise. Protestants think they are reading Paul rightly when they're actually completely misreading Paul in an anachronistic fashion ... because they don't share Paul's covenantal worldview.

 

Romans 3:22 is best translated as "the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe", for it was through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ in his life and Passion that the curses of the Old Covenant were undertaken by Jesus Christ, who serves as mankind's representative before God. When Jesus undertook the curses of the Old Covenant through his ultimate faithfulness, "the righteousness of God" was "manifested apart from the law, though testified to by the law and the prophets" (Romans 3:21).


That is an interesting mistranslation.

I would argue that it is "best translated" using a "better translation" -- for example...

NASB Rom 3
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,


The same law is in both covenants as we see in James 2 and Jer 33.

All are condemned under the Old Covenant - and ALL are saved under the New Covenant (see Heb 8 and 2Cor 3). We are all sinners - all condemned under the old covenant of "Obey and Live".

But when we are born-again through faith in the Messiah - we are ALL under the new Covenant conditions spelled out in Hebrews 8.

It is the same law in both. The same law that defines sin, and its penalty - under the O.C - is satisified by the payment made in the N.C.

I do not deny the covenants - but if we leave the text in its integrity - we begin to see that it is NOT simply a covenant change in the New Testament- RATHER it is a Gospel SOLUTION instituted at the LITERAL Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve - a ONE Gospel solution effective in BOTH OT and NT.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hi Ray,

What you may or may not understand is that Protestantism has liberal theologians who distort many things as to the true faith. I personally never heard of N.T. Wright.

You're kidding me right? N.T. Wright is one of the most famous contemporary Biblical scholars around today; his Jesus and the Victory of God is a monumental work of Biblical scholarship, which has been shocking the Evangelical Protestant world left and right. Do a search on him and see what you come up with:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=N.T.+Wright&btnG=Google+Search

He's surprisingly conservative as a faithful Anglican scholar - the canon theologian of Westminster Abbey, one who has vigorously debated against The Jesus Seminar.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/31/story_3134_1.html
http://www.calvin.edu/january/2003/wright.htm
http://www.hornes.org/theologia/content/travis_tamerius/interview_with_n_t_wright.htm

 

Ray,

I'm glad to see that you believe that simply trusting in Jesus doesn't equal salvation.

 

What you are saying is not simply trusting in Jesus. It is a special kind of trusting in Jesus that is not taught by all.

There are those who teach that all one must do is ask Jesus to forgive you and you are going to heaven. Everything after that is just rewards.

 

Justification and Sanctification.

Jesus atonement for Sin makes me "Just as if I'd not sinned!"

My belief in Jesus makes me sanctified. That is, set apart from those who don't believe. I am marked, by my belief in Jesus, for salvation.

All mankind are sanctified (set apart) for something in accordance with Jesus' words in John 3:18. Those who believe in Jesus are sanctified, set apart from judgement, and shall not be judged and cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14,15).

Those who do not believe in accordance with John 3:16 will be, and according to John 3:18 are already sanctified, set apart, for judgment. That is, they are marked for judgment before they die from this natural life because they failed to believe in Jesus.

Now what is difficult about Justification and Sanctification? The Church, Catholic mostly, confuses the issue because they fail to recognize the simple truth of God's Holy Word. Thinking that God is raising man through man's religious efforts to positions of responsibility within the Church of Jesus Christ through the "processes" the roman church established.