Truth - Is the Board Dirty?

[post-it]

To make it clear, I did not say that criminals are not to be held accountable, they are in fact to be dealt with according to man's law. Even if they couldn't help acting out their crimes, it doesn't free them from the rest of society needing to be protected from them.

Looking at a drug addict, which has come to the Lord, but because of physical perversions from his prior addiction, he goes back into his sin. where is the responsiblity for this sin since it is a form of "sickness" out of the control of the individual?

He was forgiven for the "initial" act of taking drugs at the time of his conversion. But because of the initial act of "getting hooked on drugs", he was weakend by that act physically, mentally and chemically. The initial acts left him scared for life with a weakness for taking drugs. That weakness was a physical pervertion created by the sin which has now been forgiven. How can he now be held accountable for this new sin which is only cause directly from the old sin which was forgiven?

And please don't sidetrack this by thinking this applies to ALL addicts, I know it doesn't. But there are many who with God's help will stay off drugs, but there are also many that can't stay off dispite their really wanting to. If they have a perversion of their mind or chemical makeup, does that make them destined for Hell? I don't believe so. If that were so, then it would be God's fault that he did not restore the addict to full health upon conversion, thus making it God's fault for the addicts continued sinning ways. And that isn't the way it works.

Therefore, there can be criminals that are guilty of crimes from Man's view and that can certainly be sin's from the Bible's view, but which are not held against them from God's view.

[ October 28, 2002, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[Marty Lineberry]

The real issue here is the Propaganda that several people use on a regular basic's to promote the agenda that Homosexuality is NOT a Sin! What effect does this have on people who reads what they say?

For reference let's examine the thought by a real homosexual!
"During the years in which I tried to use religion to change my gayness, I always became uncomfortable with any readings or discussions of Jn. 13. In that passage, Jesus stripped down, "girded" Himself with a towel, and washed the feet of His disciples. Then He used that towel to dry their feet, while still wearing that towel as a loincloth (13:5). Think of where that put their feet. After Jesus explained the symbolism of this act, Simon Peter told Jesus to wash his entire body; to my relief, Jesus said only the feet needed it (13:9-10). Soon after Jesus dressed, Simon Peter laid down against His chest while conversing with Him (13:25). "

I know this will offend a lot of people but it brings the source of the problem to the front! The people who promote "Homosexuality is not a Sin" wish to protray this as healthy and good as Mom's Apples Pie! They also say this person was born this way? What effect does Post-It have on this Christian with his statement

Are their homosexuals that are released and freed from the "sin" of homosexuality? Yes... but these people are really heterosexuals that have chosen to try different things sexually which is against their natural sexual orientation. They are perverts from their heterosexual nature.

Tell me would that help you if you was fighting a demon?
Does Alcoholics Anonymous even teach people this who has a drinking problem?

Are there alcoholics that are released and freed from the "sin" of alcohol? Yes... but these people are really non-alcoholics that have chosen to try different drinks which is against their natural non-alcoholic orientation.

So you tell me what message that would send to an alcoholic that is fighting the problem?
The source of it is PURE 100% EVIL!

 

[Gina B]

Marty, you have it all wrong.
It's perfectly ok. All of it. As long as you love Jesus, go for it. He wants you to be happy, doesn't he? Do you really think that if drinking alcohol or having a sexual partner of the same gender makes you really happy that it would be condemned? Aren't you teaching hatred by repeating something written by people BEFORE they were as enlightened as we are today?
Gina

 

[Marty Lineberry]

What happens if an Alcoholic reads what you just said about it being ok?
What happens if a Homosexual reads what you just said about it being ok?

Shame on you Gina! What about all the millions that are dying and all the families that are destroyed because of Alcohol Abuse?

Shame on you Gina! What about all the millions that are dying because of AIDS because of their homosexuality? What about the young children that you are teaching it's ok and will convert to the lifestyle? What about the poor guy who is being attacked by the devil because he is fighting the thoughts that you just said are ok?

 

[Gina B]

Originally posted by Marty Lineberry:
What happens if an Alcoholic reads what you just said about it being ok?
What happens if a Homosexual reads what you just said about it being ok?

Shame on you Gina! What about all the millions that are dying and all the families that are destroyed because of Alcohol Abuse?

Shame on you Gina! What about all the millions that are dying because of AIDS because of their homosexuality? What about the young children that you are teaching it's ok and will convert to the lifestyle? What about the poor guy who is being attacked by the devil because he is fighting the thoughts that you just said are ok?

Families are also destroyed from people not taking their insulin. I don't see you preaching that not taking your insulin is wrong! But you'll preach about alcohol.

You CAN get AIDS in other ways.
And as far as children converting, won't that help the population explosion? If people keep reproducing how will we feed them all? Is it really a good idea for people to starve? Is something that keeps people from starving bad?

Man, I'm disgusting myself even PRETENDING to be serious!
God's word says what it says. Fight against it and you're fighting against God.
Homosexuality is a sick perversion and is EVIL and WRONG.
Justifying it even if you don't practice it is just as bad.
A child of God shows forth LIGHT, not darkness. Standing up for what goes against the scriptures is promoting DARKNESS.
In other words, whoever promotes, defends, or practices homosexuality is guilty of a vile sin. Got a problem with that? Then you got a problem with God. I suggest getting on your knees and talking to Him about it.
Gina

 

[jasonW*]

Originally posted by Chrysoprasus:
Marty, you have it all wrong.
It's perfectly ok. All of it. As long as you love Jesus, go for it. He wants you to be happy, doesn't he? Do you really think that if drinking alcohol or having a sexual partner of the same gender makes you really happy that it would be condemned? Aren't you teaching hatred by repeating something written by people BEFORE they were as enlightened as we are today?
Gina

This is a joke, right? Ha. Funny. Almost had me there.

jason

 

[Marty Lineberry]

The problem is that Homosexuals are still real people and some of them realize they have a problem and trying to get out of it.

Does what Gina say helps them. Yes it Does! It tells them the truth and convicts them with the Holy Spirit that they are sinning!

Does Josh and Post-It help them No!!! They have the excuse to continue in their sins!

One leads them to justify what they are doing as ok. Whatever their Agenda is it has no Love for the the poor homosexuals who are trapped in the prison of the homosexual lifestyle and wants to get out of it. I would be ashamed of myself Josh and Post-It. Think of the effect you are having on them!

We as Baptist needs to stand up and defend the homosexuals from Josh & Post-It!

 

[Gina B]

Yes, I'd say that telling someone they aren't sinning when they clearly are is most definitely showing hatred. Not only to God, but towards those people who either do not realize that they are committing a grievous sin or who feel they might be but feel justified in doing so because people who claim to speak God's truth tell them it's ok and natural.
Gina

 

[Gina B]

By the way, natural does NOT mean it's ok! It is human nature to sin.
So throwing in the "but it comes natural to me" argument just doesn't work.
Gina

 

[Son of Consolation]

Gina, no offense but you were confusing me. My old head is spinning around in double time. In one of your post you seemingly agree with the homosexual agenda, while in the other you vehemently opposing it. So, what do you try to convey? Are you trying to humor some folks in their honest attempt to throw light on the sin of homosexuality - or this is a private joke, I just stumbled upon?

To everyone else:
BTW, to respond to some of the earlier posts by others, I think there is a slight confusion here about the concept of sin. At time it is confused with various illnesses or even worst, some folks are mistranslating the words of Jesus where He was referring to eunuchs (who willfully remain celibate, as Paul did). I hope you are aware good friends that when the Bible talks about sin, it talks about the whole spectrum of sin, not just homosexuality. This is where the homosexuals and their supporters are getting personal, and on the defensive, for they do not want to acknowledge that homosexuality is a sin.

When a heterosexual person commits adultery, when a person steals, kills, lies, and commit all kinds of offenses against God, he or she is committing a sin. Adultery as well as homosexuality, however, is a sin against the body - which supposed to be the temple of God. See 1 Corinthians 6:15-20.

15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

There are people who passionately defend homosexuals, and then there are those who say that Christians should minister to these folks, and have a ministry provided for them within the church. I think that there is some confusion here by some of the folks. It seems that my previous post passed over their heads and did not sink in. So, I shall repeat it again. When Jesus dealt with sinners, He told them to sin no more! He was not defending the sin at any time - as the homosexuals or their friends do. Sin was dealt with directly. As the Bible affirms that sin will not be allowed into the kingdom of God, we must strive to share the Gospel to everyone (including homosexuals) - for His word does not return void. So, I can indeed minister to the need of the homosexual and restore him/her to God - but in order for me to have fellowship with the person(s), before conversion, the Bible says that we have to be of the same soul and mind. In closing, let me reiterate, you maybe a friend of a practicing homosexual, but if that person does not turn to the Lord and change, you cannot have true fellowship with him. Trust that this is quite clear to all. Keep the faith and God bless!

 

[new man]

UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!

 

[Dr. Bob]

Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Homosexuality is clearly in incontrovertably listed as a sin. But it is a sin from which God can save.

As a conservative, I wish that everyone believed the same way about this issue. As a Baptist, I must give YOU the right to hold a wrong view. I do not have to embrace it or you, but I will tolerate you believing it.

Anti-gay? No. Anti-sin? You betcha.

 

[Gina B]

Barnabas, the agreement was false, intended as satirical to show the ridiculousness of the arguments pro-homosexuals give.
I've heard it over and over...the same lame arguments, the same justifications, the same accusations of hatred against homosexuals just because one stands on the word of God and will not yield to others excuses for not doing so.
It gets tiring.
Homosexuality is a sin against God.
Promoting and/or defending it is a sin against God.
To promote and/or defend it is showing true hatred.
It's time to turn the accusation around.
It's the promoters and defenders who hate. They hate the word of God, because it goes against what they want. They hate homosexuals, because they refuse to teach them the truth.
Now that's about as clear as I can word it.

Gina

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Homosexuality is clearly in incontrovertably listed as a sin. But it is a sin from which God can save.

As a conservative, I wish that everyone believed the same way about this issue. As a Baptist, I must give YOU the right to hold a wrong view. I do not have to embrace it or you, but I will tolerate you believing it.

Anti-gay? No. Anti-sin? You betcha.

</font>[/QUOTE]Dr. Bob,

Amen to everything you just said. That is truly the heart of a Baptist. You said it all my friend.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Chrysoprasus:
By the way, natural does NOT mean it's ok! It is human nature to sin.
So throwing in the "but it comes natural to me" argument just doesn't work.
Gina

So a person born with mental defect, that causes him/her to violate any of God's laws is guilty of sin and will go to hell unless they somehow get a total healing and restoration to good health and mental capacity at or shortly after being saved?

This is what this quote has just stated. And what most people here are supporting.

It also implies that anyone who has been saved will not continue in any venues of sin. Knowing that God hates the sin, we Christians will still continue to commit the sins that we have a natural weakness for. This common attitude found here expects a homosexual to stop but non-homosexuals don't have to stop their various sinning.

Jesus said " Go and sin no more" was he really giving us just one more command that we could not follow, thus sin? What Christian has stopped sinning? Can anyone follow that command, he clearly did not say "try to stop sinning". No this was a clear direction that we all will fail at, thus we are all guilty of yet another violation. The fact we can't shows we continue to sin for not being able not to sin. So it is a sin, not to be able to, not stop sinning.

So we Christians all, continue to sin and committing even compound sins. Yet some of us have the nerve to look at one single sin (homosexuality) and pass some exalted status of specialty on it. Thus dividing Christians into two camps. Those who sin after conversion and those who are homosexual and sin after conversion. Then we call those who have the added scarlet letter of homosexuality heretics.

It is Christ who is disgusted by such hypocrisy.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by post-it:
Are their homosexuals that are released and freed from the "sin" of homosexuality? Yes... but these people are really heterosexuals that have chosen to try different things sexually which is against their natural sexual orientation. They are perverts from their heterosexual nature. But equally there are natural homosexuals that would be perverts if they switched to being heterosexuals. It is these and only these people who are at the core of most Christian pro-homosexual views.

Murph= It is at times like these that I really wish I could play the violin because this is really breaking my heart and it should be set to music.

of course as I have stated before I believe teh Bible's view of such thought is best summed up by saying " professing themselves to be wise they became fools"

True homosexuals don't need to be penned up. They don't and can't be "cured" by medicine or a faith healer. They are no more a sinner than a person with Tourettes Syndrome (cussing up a storm using God's name in vain etc). They are no more a sinner than a person born with any other problem that orginal sin caused by perverting (as in defect) their body or their mind.[/QB]

Homosexuality is not a medical condition nor is it caused by ones environment, it is SIN!!!!! Your logic fails because the homosexual is just as accountable to God for their actions as I would be if I acted out my natural (fleshly) desires for women other than my wife. This is SIN and an abomination to God as is also your promotion of this action as sinless. Concerning your statement that homosexuality cannot be healed by a faith healer, maybe so but Jesus can save and heal if only those in this sin will allow Him to do so. Sadly though some church leaders deceive them by claiming the Bible is a lie and they are not living in sin. What did Jesus say about that millstone?
Murph

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by Barnabas:
When Jesus dealt with sinners, He told them to sin no more! He was not defending the sin at any time - as the homosexuals or their friends do. Sin was dealt with directly. As the Bible affirms that sin will not be allowed into the kingdom of God, we must strive to share the Gospel to everyone (including homosexuals) - for His word does not return void. So, I can indeed minister to the need of the homosexual and restore him/her to God - but in order for me to have fellowship with the person(s), before conversion, the Bible says that we have to be of the same soul and mind.

Barnabas, it appears by this statement that you have stopped all forms of sin and can devote your time to helping other people in sin (homosexuals) to be able to achieve what you have been able to. If this is not true, then you in fact continue to sin just as a Christian homosexual continues to sin. Which is it?

 

[Bible-belted]

"So a person born with mental defect, that causes him/her to violate any of God's laws is guilty of sin and will go to hell unless they somehow get a total healing and restoration to good health and mental capacity at or shortly after being saved?"

Not even remotely simlar Post. You argue that homosexuality is an equally valid nature to heterosexuality. That it is healthy. To compare that with a birth defect is specious. No one equates normal health with a defect. It is also fallacious to equate a physical condition with a moral one. Incidentally God can cure both. But you are trying to absolve people from responsibility for their behaviour, not their tendency.

I have yet to see anyone here insist that a homosexual must cease having homosexual feelings. I have however seen peope rightly insist that people claiming to be regenerate show signs fo their regeneration n their daily life. If people claim to be regenerate and yet as far as their behaviour goes nothing has changed, then the odds are overwhelming that the reason is that nothing has changed in the heart. No regeneration. And no, post, contrary to the straw man you set up, no one insists on perfection. But their must be growth in holiness as befits the transformation of the person by the renewingof the mind. Try as you might you cannot allow people to praise the Lord while letting them live lke the devil.

And finally post, no one here has suggested the hypocrisy you claim.

Sour grapes post. You can't defend homosexuality adequately sdo you atack those who succeed in calling sin, sin.

I urge you, as I did Joshua, to be a conscience, to hold others accountable in how they call sin, sin. So that the remain willing to show the love of Christ to peope even as they tell tehm to go and sin no more. Hold the to account lest their righteous indignation become nothing more than self righteous judgmentalism.

But accept that the discussion here is closed. There is a consensus. Become a conscience, not contentious. That is your only real biblcial option.

 

[post-it]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
if I acted out my natural (fleshly) desires for women other than my wife. This is SIN and an abomination to God as is also your promotion of this action as sinless.
Murph

Murph, I didn't say it wasn't a sin in my argument (That was Josuha). In fact, Just the opposite, I said it was a sin equal to the sin you just admitted you are guilty of by lusting after other women. Why have you not been freed from this weakness of lusting in your heart after women? Is it a manner of degree that you judge sin? Jesus didn't make that difference. He clearly said "thinking" of doing sin is equal in to "doing" it. Therefore, there is no difference in your lustfilled sin and a homosexual living is his/her weakeness of sin.

Once you can stop your sinning, I will entertain your argument that homosexuals should stop theirs.

[ October 28, 2002, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

[Gina B]

Post-it, how many people have you witnessed to lately?
How dare you tell people they need to repent of their sins while you're not perfect?
Unless your answer is zero.
Gina