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Truth or Calvinism - That should do it.
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John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Darren
And....?
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Darren
There's a song by Casting Crowns that goes,
"Is there hope for every man
A solid place where we can stand
In this dry and weary land
Is there hope for every man
Is there love that never dies
Is there peace in troubled times
Someone help me understand
Is there hope for every man"
The saddest thing about the system of Calvinism is that there isn't hope for every man. Many have no chance at salvation. And for what reason? :tear:
"Is there hope for every man
A solid place where we can stand
In this dry and weary land
Is there hope for every man
Is there love that never dies
Is there peace in troubled times
Someone help me understand
Is there hope for every man"
The saddest thing about the system of Calvinism is that there isn't hope for every man. Many have no chance at salvation. And for what reason? :tear:
I would agree however, I don't see 2 groups of people, the elect or non elect, just that Christ died for all, God's grace to ALL not just some but ALL the world:
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
1 Tim 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Darren
God "FOREKNEW", but he didn't "predestine".
Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Ro 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Is God speaking here from the position of "Foreknowledge" or "predestination"??
If it's predestination, two problems arises.
1. God doesn't tempt man to sin, muchless predestine him to sin.
2. If God condemned Esau prior to him having committed a sin, then the "LAW" is nullified as being the Agent which condemns us.
Of course if the law is nullified, then so is Jesus's death.
God can only be speaking of Esau/Pharoah from the position of "Foreknowledge".
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
People sell the "Born again Birthright" Jesus offer to them for a "morsel of meat", the "lust of the flesh",
and that's why God hated Esau and them.
Lux et veritas
New Member
The problem with this kind of thinking is that you are making God to be like yourself. You are imposing your way of thinking on how God runs His world.
But remember, God says, "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isa. 55:9)
The Arminian views represented on this thread are really just attempts to explain God and His works by the standards of men. It is in the end a form of humanism where man is the center of all things, rather than God.
Even at Calvary, there was a work greater than the paying the price for sin. It was the restoring of the glory of God by the last Adam. The Arminian argument that is being so strenuously put forth here is a downgrading of the God's glory, and an uplifting of man's.
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Lux et veritas
New Member
Two major problems with your statement.
1. Romans 8:29 says "WHOM he (God) foreknew". Not "what" but "whom". Foreknowledge here is not dealing with an action of something someone did, but the very persons themselves. There is a 'class' of humanity that Paul says, "God foreknew". In other words He knows them in a special sense. They are His elect. When people argue that foreknowledge in this verse is speaking about an action (the sinner receiving Christ), they simply reveal their ignorance or misunderstanding of what the Scripture is actually saying.
2. How can there even be a fair debate when you don't even know the difference between predestination and election? Even the most rabid Arminian must admit in predestination though he may be adamantly opposed to election. They are related but very different.
That is simply not true. It is to God's glory that HE saves sinners, bottom line.
From the Calvinist position they teach that a sinner comes to Christ because they have been first regenerated, right. So being regenerated the sinner will believe in Christ and cannot refuse. However that action assumes the sinner has been regenerated and therefore could NOT resist God's grace, which CONCLUDES non elect sinners do not get any grace, mercy or love from God at all.
Alternatively, instead of being regenerated the sinner is drawn by the gospel, revelation, the Holy Spirit, when Christ is lifted up..etc to faith in Christ but they can resist that. The conclusion is God's grace, mercy and love is for ALL but only some believe while other resist. There is nothing downgrading about that at all, in fact God is glorified over each sinner that repents and comes to a saving knowledge of God. Once the sinner has been saved they are then regenerated at that time NOT before. There is nothing downgraded about that whatsoever and it is in line with what the bible teaches.
Darren
Benefactor
New Member
Reinforcement on Scripture / Regeneration is Salvation
5. He saved us,
not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness,
but according to His mercy,
HOW
by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6. whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Calvinism has it wrong, Salvation as it is explained here is Regeneration or regeneration is salvation and there is only one not two regenerations as the Dangerous Dogma of Dort Drags into it. Jesus said in Luke 7:50 "your faith has saved you"
Let’s give all the first graders and below a test:
Kids what comes first in this sentence? Faith or saved.
All get a 100 because they said faith, yet some adults don't get it.
No, they will say, it does not say that, you are reading it incorrectly; you are not spiritually enlightened, allso you have not been converted so that you can be converted so that you can believe so that you can understand bla bla bla bla bla and on and on this false forced frenzy festers.
No don't tell people the truth it will refute the Dort dart of dangerous doctrine.
5. He saved us,
not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness,
but according to His mercy,
HOW
by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6. whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Calvinism has it wrong, Salvation as it is explained here is Regeneration or regeneration is salvation and there is only one not two regenerations as the Dangerous Dogma of Dort Drags into it. Jesus said in Luke 7:50 "your faith has saved you"
Let’s give all the first graders and below a test:
Kids what comes first in this sentence? Faith or saved.
All get a 100 because they said faith, yet some adults don't get it.
No, they will say, it does not say that, you are reading it incorrectly; you are not spiritually enlightened, allso you have not been converted so that you can be converted so that you can believe so that you can understand bla bla bla bla bla and on and on this false forced frenzy festers.
No don't tell people the truth it will refute the Dort dart of dangerous doctrine.
Tom Butler
New Member
Whoa, Nellie. Are you sure you want to use 2 Cor 5:19? There's a pesky little phrase in there that can cause all sorts of trouble for your position. "Not imputing their trespasses to them." Who is them? The world.
Now I know you don't hold to universalism. So I'll leave it to you to explain how "not imputing their trespasses to them" is not universalism, given your position.
Simply not true. No arminian decides on how salvation happens...that's a strawman if there ever was one. We don't tell God who to save, He has already decreed who He will save.
Assuming you have properly defined foreknowledge (you have not), but even at that, it doesn't matter. God knew in eternity past, and therefore allowed people to be born into this world who have no hope. They were born damned to hell because God knew what they would do. No amount of gospel preaching will change that. No amount of desire on teh part of the individual will change that.
So you haven't solved anything. You have the same problem. You just have a smaller God.
But that's true in your belief, as I demonstrated in my post above. You haven't solved the problem.
Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Do you understand the difference in foreknowing an event is going, to occur,
and Predestine that event, to occur??
There's nothing in that verse that includes/exclude anyone to/from salvation,
As a matter of fact, if you understood the verse, you wouldn't be a "Calvinist", because that verse contradicts everything calvin taught.
Just what was "predestined", according to the verse, "conforming to Jesus's image",
it's describing the plan of our salvation, patterned after the same sequence that Jesus when through.
Do you know that Jesus laid down his life of his own "FREE WILL" he could have stopped his crucifixion at any point, but he said:
Not my will, but thy will be done.
Now, if you going to "Conform to Jesus image",
what will you of your "OWN FREE WILL" have to do to be saved???
Le 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,
God calls, the choice to crucify the flesh for the Spirit or continue to live the life of the flesh, is placed before man,
and man is left with the choice of "MY WILL" or "THY WILL" be done.
You really need to learn what Jesus meant when he ask "Can you drink of the cup I drink",
Man is a "FREE" to say "THY WILL" be done and lay his life down as Jesus was,
and with that FREEDOM", come the choice to say "MY WILL" be done, instead of "THY WILL".
Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
So, you see the verse you thought supported you actually disagreed with you.
How many other ways do Chrstians "Conform"??
1.
Jesus was Born by the Spirit
Mt 1:20 for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Christians are born by the spirit
Joh 3:5 Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
2.
Jesus, was the Son of God.
Matthew 8 29,
Jesus, thou Son of God.
Christians, are Sons of God.
John 1 12,
to them gave he power to become the sons of God.
3
Jesus, spoke the words of God.
John 3 34,
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God:
Christians, speak the words of God.
John 17 8,
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me.
4
Jesus, possessed the Holy spirit.
John 3 34,
for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
Christians, possesses the Holy Spirit.
Luke 11 13,
your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him.
5
Jesus, was the Light of the world.
John 9 5,
I am the light of the world.
Christians, are the light of the world.
Matthew 5 14,
Ye are the light of the world.
6
Jesus, performed the Works of God.
John 9 4,
I must work the works of him that sent me.
Christians, perform the Works of God.
John 14 12,
He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also.
7
Jesus, had the Righteousness of God.
Romans 10 4,
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.
Christians, Have the Righteousness of God.
Romans 3 22,
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ
unto all and upon all them that believe.
8
Jesus, was God's Representative.
Matthew 10 40,
he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Christians, are God's Representatives.
Matthew 10 40,
He that receiveth you receiveth me.
9
Jesus, Crucified for salvation.
Matthew 27 35,
And they crucified him.
Christians, Crucified for salvation.
Romans 6 6,
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him.
10
Sin had no dominion over Jesus.
Second Corinthians 5 21,
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin.
Christians, sin has no dominion over Christians.
Romans 6 14,
For sin shall not have dominion over you.
11
Jesus, was Raptured off the earth.
Acts 1 9,
he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Christians, will be Raptured off the earth.
First Thessolonians 4 17,
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.
12
Jesus, was Resurrected in three days.
Luke 18 33,
and the third day he shall rise again.
Christians, will be Resurrected in Three days.
Romans 6 5,
we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.
These three days for the church are the 5th, 6th, and 7th day.
13
Jesus, received a Glorified body.
Acts 2 31,
neither his flesh did see corruption.
Christians, will receive a Glorified Body.
First Corinthians 15 53,
For this corruptible must put on in corruption.
14
Jesus, presented his Body a living sacrifice before God.
First Corinthians 5 7, For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us.
Christians, presenting their body, a living sacrifice.
Romans 12 1,
that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God.
15
Jesus, will inherit the universe.
First Peter 3 22,
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God;
angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Christians, will inherit the universe.
Romans 8 17,
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.
16
Jesus, will Reign over the earth.
Habakkuk 2 14,
For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD,
as the waters cover the sea.
Christians, will Reign over the earth.
Revelations 20 4,
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
17
The title, Son of God, conferred on Christians,
entitled them to sit on the right hand of God, with Jesus.
Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
18
As Jesus presented only his body before God for Atonement,
so will only his body, the Church, be presented before God at the lamb’s marriage supper.
Revelations 19 9, And he saith unto me, Write,
Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.
These are just some of the ways Christians conform to Jesus’s image.
Benefactor
New Member
If man does not have free will to respont to truth then there is a big problem.
The Calvinist view will work only if no one is saved or all are saved, but the non Calvinist view recognizes that to avoid these to universalisms man must have a choice that does not involve his invention, his thinking, his plans etc and that is to trust in God's plan, understanding that faith is not a work of man but a capacity of man to recognize the work of God and reject his own work. This view alone honors the desire of God and protects His holiness whereas the other does not.
Talk about straw men??? YOu twisted my words. I never once said that arminians say that man decides how salvation happens.
What I said was that the arminian believes that the final decision on whether a particular person gets saved or not lies in the decision of that person.
THe calvinist believes that the final decision lies in the choice of God.
No strawman at all.
The "FINAL" decision (Grace) is based on the "INITIAL" decision (Faith) of man.
Two can't walk together unless they agree.
The final decision does NOT lie in man's choice...that IS a strawman! The final decision ALWAYS lies with God who He saves. If HE determines the means of salvation, and man has a choice in the process, HE still has the "final decision" in salvation. It's HIS decrees, HIS rules, HIS salvation. I twisted nothing.
Benefactor
New Member
Agree, while none Calvinist believe free will is in one sense man's part it only is if the response to god is of a contrite heart not just an intellectual assent. Because God's knows the difference when man responds to God's invitations and accepts it God saves only on the basis of real faith which involves a contrite and broken heart surrendered to Him. Man simply give up on running his own for only God can save and what God does is the final "Action". God pursues, convicts / offers, man considers and either trust or does not trust in the truth, God then saves all who cast themselves on the mercy of God confessing their sin, repenting and believing.
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