Truth or Calvinism - That should do it.

[Jarthur001]

You, like all of us are a created being. God is the Creator. Any free will that you have comes from and is defined from Above. As God has allowed, you have the free will to make day to day decisions that affect your life on this earth. What makes you think that in the fallen state we are in, that we have the free will to accept something that is Holy? What evidence or Scripture backs this up? These two examples are two entirely different areas.

For a while, I struggled with irresistible grace. I do not like that term, because it connects to the man Calvin. Anyway, once the Holy Spirit starts working on someone, maybe in God's timing, it is not at the first instant. Maybe when we see people who will seem to reject God time after time, it is because we are seeing the Holy Spirit convicting them on God's time schedule. The bottom line is, if God has chosen them, they will declare Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. The other possibility is that we are seeing someone operating off a conscience in them, and the Holy Spirit is not convicting them.

By the way, welcome to Baptist Board, and hope you enjoy the exchange of ideas.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Best post on this thread. "Ben" is not ready to learn. That is why I have not taken part on this thread.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Hear Ye, Hear Ye, Read All About It

Larry Pastor Most Wonderful Advisor of All Declares:

If you have taken Greek any where at any time by any one other than Dr. Wallace you are a phony and you are stupid. He who has not rubbed shoulders with Dr. Wallace is a no body, so sound the trumpets, stand aside you lesser people for the great and wonderful Sir. Larry Pastor, of the know it alls is arriving.

I never said any such thing. I have never taken Greek from Dr. Wallace. I didn't say one who has taken Greek somewhere else under someone else is a phony and stupid. You are making that up.

I said that if you are going to talk Greek, you need to have worked through Wallace. Wallace is considered by most to be the standard 2nd year Greek textbook. It is very comprehensive. Someone who doesn't have Wallace is probably ill-prepared to talk about nuances of Greek.

So in the future, please respond to what I actually say rather than making it up as you go.

BTW, this methodology of yours is exactly what you do with Scripture. You pay very little attention to what is said. You put your own spin on it and wrest it out of its context and make it say what you want. This thread is an example. Regardless of what one concludes about the nature of special election, it is clear that Rom 11:32 does not address it in anyway.

As I said, there's a reason why it doesn't come up in conversations about election ... It is not talking about election.

 

[kyredneck]

You know, all these names mentioned on this thread, whether it be Wallace, Calvin, Moore, Lindsey, or whoever, were mortal men like us, with minds like ours. God gave us a mind to read the Bible, and gave us the Holy Spirit to teach us in all things. What difference does it make what someone else thinks about what the Bible says?

It is obvioius from the Scripture that God is a sovereign and merciful God. He is the Creator, and salvation is totally from Him. Without Him, we could not take a breath of air. We do not choose to take a breath of air or not and sustain life. If there is any free will on the part of man in certain contexts, it is given to him by the Lord.

We are all capable of figuring this out by reading Scripture, going to Bible study, and fellowshipping. IMO, Pastor Larry, OR, and Tom Butler have this issue nailed down. The only thing that I wish is that we had named these doctrines something other than Calvinism.

Good post (for me). Thank you sir.

 

[Tom Butler]

Of course the illustrations positions itself that man cannot respond to God unless he is regenerated first so that he then will believe. In this model the illustration fits, but with free will it does not. Jesus said in Luke 7:50 that faith saves not saves give faith. I believe that God elects all those whom He knows will receive the truth. God desires all to be saved and Jesus died for the sins of all and the only way that God's holiness can be protected is if man can freely believe in the work of God.

The reason the conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment was effective for some but not most is because of the ability to freely make that decision.

Are your choices in life free or are you robotically making each decisions?

You are correct about the illustration. Dr. Sproul's questions reflect the view that freely and willingly repents and believes once the Holy Spirit has rengenerated the heart of stone and given it life. It is the explanation why you trusted Christ and another did not.

Now, regarding your answer. My paraphrase is, Holy Spirit conviction was effective on me and not on another because I wanted to and he didn't. I decided to, he decided not to.

That does not answer the original question. Why were you willing and someone else not willing. What made you different?

Even if I buy your foreseen faith explanation, the question still remains. If God knows that you will repent and believe, and elects you on that basis, the question remains.

Does God give all the same freedom to choose? Does God draw all people to himself. Does God convict all of sin? Does God woo all with the same intensity? If yes, then what made you willing and another not?

Finally, the "robot" argument is old stuff. Go ask anybody--Calvinist, Arminian, anybody--about their salvation experience. Find me one person whose testimony is as follows: "Man, I was really enjoying my sinful life, but one day God got hold of me and bam, he saved me. I didn't want to, I fought him hard, but he made me. He got into my brain and zapped it, and suddenly, he overpowered my will. I couldn't help it. I still don't want to be saved today. But God has some sort of power over me, sort of like I'm a robot, programmed--to--do--whatever--he--wants."

Oh, you say, that's silly. Uh-huh, it is.

 

[Amy.G]

That does not answer the original question. Why were you willing and someone else not willing. What made you different?

According to Jesus:

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


Paul said:

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

 

[Me4Him]

Could you please clarify? Are you really saying that those living in O.T. times did not have the Holy Spirit?

Old Regular made the same statement, and so do 99% of Calvinist.

Without the "presents" of the "Spirit" or "Ghost", either speaking to/dwelling "IN" the person,

Calvin's doctrine falls apart.

Calvin's doctrine is based "WHOLLY" on the conditions of the "Spirit/Ghost" being present in the world/in the person.

Conditions which did not exist in the OT, nor will they during the Trib period.

In the OT, God's "SPIRIT" spoke to Prophets/Kings/Priest, they in turn spoke to the people, the spirit never spoke to the "Average Joe",

and the Spirit "CAME/WHEN", it didn't "COME/STAY/INDWELL".

Jg 6:34 But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon,
1Sa 11:6 And the Spirit of God came upon Saul
2Ch 24:20 And the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah

The "Average Joe" heard "GOD'S WORD" from the person speaking for God and had the "CHOICE" to believe/obey or not believe/disobey,

and without any "Spirit" to "Regenerate" them before they would believe.

"Regeneration" is to be saved, and "NNE" was saved prior to Jesus paying the wages of sin.

Calvin(ist) never understood the difference in

"HEARING".. "GOD'S WORD" spoke by a "prophet",

and

"HEARING"..."GOD'S WORD" (Jesus/Comforter) speak "DIRECTLY" to them.

Heb 1:1 God, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 (God) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

Calvin's doctrine won't stand when compared to the OT and God's efforts to get people to hear/believe/obey him,

because everything Calvin said was impossible for man to do without the aid of the spirit,

occurred in the OT, without the aid of the Spirit.

 

[OldRegular]

According to Jesus:

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


Paul said:

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Amy

Verse 19 says: men loved darkness rather than light!

That is true as shown throughout the Bible. Why then do some believe while others do not?

 

[Lux et veritas]

Without the "presents" of the "Spirit" or "Ghost", either speaking to/dwelling "IN" the person, Calvin's doctrine falls apart.

Now I know why you are so confused in your doctrine and understanding of Calvinism.

We are talking about the "presence" of the Holy Spirit, and you are talking about the "presents" of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Lux et veritas]

Old Regular made the same statement, and so do 99% of Calvinist.

Without the "presents" of the "Spirit" or "Ghost", either speaking to/dwelling "IN" the person,

Calvin's doctrine falls apart.

Calvin's doctrine is based "WHOLLY" on the conditions of the "Spirit/Ghost" being present in the world/in the person.

Conditions which did not exist in the OT, nor will they during the Trib period.

In the OT, God's "SPIRIT" spoke to Prophets/Kings/Priest, they in turn spoke to the people, the spirit never spoke to the "Average Joe",

and the Spirit "CAME/WHEN", it didn't "COME/STAY/INDWELL".

Jg 6:34 But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon,
1Sa 11:6 And the Spirit of God came upon Saul
2Ch 24:20 And the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah

The "Average Joe" heard "GOD'S WORD" from the person speaking for God and had the "CHOICE" to believe/obey or not believe/disobey,

and without any "Spirit" to "Regenerate" them before they would believe.

"Regeneration" is to be saved, and "NNE" was saved prior to Jesus paying the wages of sin.

Calvin(ist) never understood the difference in

"HEARING".. "GOD'S WORD" spoke by a "prophet",

and

"HEARING"..."GOD'S WORD" (Jesus/Comforter) speak "DIRECTLY" to them.

Heb 1:1 God, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 (God) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

Calvin's doctrine won't stand when compared to the OT and God's efforts to get people to hear/believe/obey him,

because everything Calvin said was impossible for man to do without the aid of the spirit,

occurred in the OT, without the aid of the Spirit.

You have one very strange view of the Holy Spirit's work throughout the ages of history.

Exodus 35:30-35 Bezaleel was filled with the Spirit of God and he was no prophet. He was a craftsman. He taught others his trade, not the scriptures.

John 3 When Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about the new birth (being "born of the Spirit"), He challenged Nicodemus with the question, "Art thou a master in Israel and knoweth not these things?" (3:10)

In other words, Nicodemus, who only had the Old Testament, ought to have known the basics of the new birth which is of the Holy Spirit drawing whom He will.
"The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: SO IS EVERY ONE THAT IS BORN OF THE SPIRIT."

To say the Holy Spirit was not working in the the hearts of men in O.T. times is anti-scriptural.

 

[Tom Butler]

Amy

Verse 19 says: men loved darkness rather than light!

That is true as shown throughout the Bible. Why then do some believe while others do not?

OR, may I add to your question. Why, then, do some who once loved darkness now love the light?

 

[Dale-c]

Amy, your problem here is that you are reading more into the texts than the text actually says.

Sure, they loved darkness. As we all did.
Sure, to be saved we must believe.

But why does one continue in sin while the other believes?
That is the question the synergist can't answer.

 

[Me4Him]

Amy

Verse 19 says: men loved darkness rather than light!

That is true as shown throughout the Bible. Why then do some believe while others do not?

Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light,


lest his deeds should be reproved,

tells you why, men won't confess their sins,

Le 26:40 "IF"....they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;

41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; "IF"..then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:

42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.

1Jo 1:9 "IF".. we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There wasn't any "Spirit".. regenerating the people before they believed/confessed in the OT,

"IF" doesn't exist in "Sovereign will/predestination".

 

[HankD]

"IF" doesn't exist in "Sovereign will/predestination".

Luke 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.​

HankD​

 

[Benefactor]

I never said any such thing. I have never taken Greek from Dr. Wallace. I didn't say one who has taken Greek somewhere else under someone else is a phony and stupid. You are making that up.

I said that if you are going to talk Greek, you need to have worked through Wallace. Wallace is considered by most to be the standard 2nd year Greek textbook. It is very comprehensive. Someone who doesn't have Wallace is probably ill-prepared to talk about nuances of Greek.

So in the future, please respond to what I actually say rather than making it up as you go.

BTW, this methodology of yours is exactly what you do with Scripture. You pay very little attention to what is said. You put your own spin on it and wrest it out of its context and make it say what you want. This thread is an example. Regardless of what one concludes about the nature of special election, it is clear that Rom 11:32 does not address it in anyway.



Of course Calvinist must deny it because it refutes Calvinism that is understood.


As I said, there's a reason why it doesn't come up in conversations about election ... It is not talking about election.

32. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Death to Calvinism in one stroke of the Scripture

 

[Amy.G]

Amy, your problem here is that you are reading more into the texts than the text actually says.

Sure, they loved darkness. As we all did.
Sure, to be saved we must believe.

But why does one continue in sin while the other believes?
That is the question the synergist can't answer.

Dale, I don't have a problem. I read what Jesus said. He said people don't come to Him (the light) because they want to stay in their sin. He didn't say that people don't come to Him because they can't or because they haven't been regenerated and can't have faith.

 

[OldRegular]

32. For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. Death to Calvinism in one stroke of the Scripture

Is that universal salvation?

 

[OldRegular]

Dale, I don't have a problem. I read what Jesus said. He said people don't come to Him (the light) because they want to stay in their sin. He didn't say that people don't come to Him because they can't or because they haven't been regenerated and can't have faith.

Then why do some believe while others do not? What is it in people that makes a difference in their response?

 

[Darrenss1]

Amy

Verse 19 says: men loved darkness rather than light!

That is true as shown throughout the Bible. Why then do some believe while others do not?

Some are more responsive to the Holy Spirit/testimony of Christ (gospel)/God than others, like anyone they can resist God's drawing them to Christ. Why does a person love darkness for 60 years and then come to the light?

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

Then why do some believe while others do not? What is it in people that makes a difference in their response?

Nice leading question, were they regenerated and came to God because of God's irresistible grace? But the other God didn't regenerate (God passed over him/her) so they will go to hell anyway.

Darren

 

[Darrenss1]

Dale, I don't have a problem. I read what Jesus said. He said people don't come to Him (the light) because they want to stay in their sin. He didn't say that people don't come to Him because they can't or because they haven't been regenerated and can't have faith.

And when the Holy Spirit convicts them of sin righteousness and coming judgment they hear, are drawn to Christ by the Holy Spirit (with the gospel) and can resist Him; or repent, accept and believe on the Lord Jesus by an act of their own will (having been drawn by the Father to Christ) and therefore by coming to the light, where before they loved their sins in darkness, now they are born again and regenerated and continue to follow the Lord as a child of God.