TULI doctrines not found in scripture

[Robert Snow]

I first learned of each of these doctrines not by anything outside of Scripture but by studying the Scripture, seeing these doctrines and then doing some more outside research to see that there's actually a name for all of it!

Is your husband (hubby, as you like to say) a Calvinist?

 

[Robert Snow]

Who needs Calvin? A heavy diet of RCSproul/Ligonier/TableTalk will do just as well:

I believe you meant "A [edit - offensive language] diet." It's more accurate!

 

[annsni]

Is your husband (hubby, as you like to say) a Calvinist?

Yep he is but we never really talked much about it until after I started finding it in Scripture. He also had just before me come to that same conclusion and so we had a LOT of great date nights discussing it. I wonder how many couples go out on date nights with a notebook and a Bible!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yep he is but we never really talked much about it until after I started finding it in Scripture. He also had just before me come to that same conclusion and so we had a LOT of great date nights discussing it. I wonder how many couples go out on date nights with a notebook and a Bible!

Heaven forbid Ann that Baptists date.....lets see what else, drink an alcoholic beverage, dance, wear open toe shoes, go to a movie, read a Sunday paper (don't touch one on Monday either since it might be printed on Sunday).....blah, blah, blah. You better tell them your dates were after marriage least you be damned to hell for being loose, AND a conspiring Calvinist. :laugh:

 

[psalms109:31]

Convinced

God had me convinced of His love for the world that He sent His, and even with what Calvinist say I am still convinced of this. That people like J. Vernon McGee through the Bible kept me balance while listen and hearing what Calvinist have to say.

That Gospel is still the Gospel good news and those who believe in Jesus shall be saved those who trust in Him over their own understanding and we are apart of such a beautiful message.

 

[annsni]

Heaven forbid Ann that Baptists date.....lets see what else, drink an alcoholic beverage, dance, wear open toe shoes, go to a movie, read a Sunday paper (don't touch one on Monday either since it might be printed on Sunday).....blah, blah, blah. You better tell them your dates were after marriage least you be damned to hell for being loose, AND a conspiring Calvinist. :laugh:

Well, I'll admit that these dates I'm speaking of WERE after we were married and we still continue to do the same.

But then again, Bob and I celebrated the 27th anniversary of his asking me to be his wife just on the 28th of April. One of the best decisions I ever made.

 

[Tom Butler]

Yep he is but we never really talked much about it until after I started finding it in Scripture. He also had just before me come to that same conclusion and so we had a LOT of great date nights discussing it. I wonder how many couples go out on date nights with a notebook and a Bible!

Ah, Ann, what memories this stirred. On my first date with Janice, I sketched out the TULIP on a napkin at the Dairy Queen. She'd never heard of them except hearing her pastor-father say he didn't believe in them. She married me anyway.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Teresa and I fussed and fought . . cat and dog thru 3 years of college. Many of the same classes and in a small school (under 1000) we were both in plays, choirs, etc.

When we went to our first church service together I said I wanted to share with her my biblical position so that she knew "going in" what I felt was a hill to die on. She stopped me and said she did NOT want to get serious, but wanted ME to know her beliefs.

Long story short - found out that afternoon we were both strongly convinced of God's sovereignty and grace, particular (reformed) baptists by conviction. How could I NOT love a woman who not only was smarter than me, but held the same less-than-popular biblical matrix of grace.

I feel only real pity for those groping in darkness and unable to see the utter incapability of man to do anything right in the sight of God, the eternal knowing of me in eternity by the Father, the actual atonement for every one of my sins by the Son, the regenerating and indwelling Spirit. If I did not believe them, it would be hard to believe that I couldn't mess up and lose something like salvation that I did for myself.

 

[psalms109:31]

Scrpture

It is a great work of God to make a way for all men to come to Christ through the life and Spirit that is in His words, without the work of God through our life we can't do anything. This same life and Spirit in His words tells us to believe trust in Him and be saved or not and continue to condemnation. It is the choice of God why believers are saved not man and Jesus tells us He will not lose one that He is given. That we are the light to the world, that should not be hidden. God made us a messenger of Good news.

It is a shame for men to say our testimony how God changed our life, is wrong because their salvation was done by myself and what I did. The person who comes to Christ that way don't see it that way

I am saved by grace, because the penalty of my sin is death, and I didn't pay it Jesus did so I am saved by grace and God said that those who believe in His Son shall be saved. That trust in Jesus is not work, because it doesn't pay our debt, but to them God credits righteousness.

 

[Alive in Christ]

I believe that four of the 5 points of Calvinism are false doctrines.

T = Total Spiritual Inability, being dead in our sins means we are unable to receive the gospel in a manner that would result in Salvation. This is false doctrine, the parable of the four soils, Matthew 13:1-23 tells us that some folks lost their limited spiritual ability to understand the gospel by the practice of sin which harden there heart and they became like the soil next to the path. The other soils did respond to the gospel, so they had limited spiritual ability. Therefore Total Spiritual Inability does not fit with scripture.

U = Unconditional Election before Creation where God chose foreseen individuals before they did anything such as putting their faith in Christ. This is false doctrine. When are our names entered into the Lamb's book of life? After creation. When are we chosen? After we have lived without mercy. How are we chosen, God credits our faith in Christ and puts us in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit. 2 Thess. 2:13

L = Limited Reconciliation, Christ died for the elect only. This is false doctrine, Christ paid the ransom for all and became the propitiation for the whole world and God is reconciling the world, one believer at a time, through Christ. 1 John 2:2.

I = Irresistible Grace, the idea that 100% of those drawn by the Father are placed in Christ. This is false doctrine. Matthew 23:13 demonstrates that folks who have been drawn and are entering heaven can be turned aside.

P = Perseverance of the Saints, once saved always saved. This is sound doctrine. When we are born again, God keeps us so that we will inherit our reward in heaven by protecting our faith. 1 Peter 1:3-5.

This view was challenged not by addressing the verses cited above, but by citing other verses claimed by Calvinism to support the doctrines. Here is the list:

Total Depravity: John 6:44, 6:65; Romans 3:10-18, 8:6-8; Ephesians 2:1-3
Unconditional Election: John 6:37, 6:39, 10:29; Romans 8:28-29, 9:10-23; Ephesians 1:11
Limited Atonement: John 3:16, 10:11, 10:15, Romans 5:12-19
Irresistible Grace: John 6:44, 10:4, 10:27; Ephesians 2:4-9
Perseverance of the Saints: John 6:39-40, 10:27-29; Romans 8:1, 8:29-30, 8:35-39, 11:29; Ephesians 1:13-14; Jude 24-25

My position is there is no actual support in scripture for the TULI, and there is support for P. So why am I not able to discern the supposed support cited above? Because the supposed support depends on redefining words and adding unwarranted inferences to “create” the support.

Let me just address the cited support for Total Spiritual Inability.

Does John 6:44 say mankind is unable to respond to the draw of the gospel unless altered by irresistible grace? Of course not. Does it say to be drawn by the Father means compelled by irresistible grace? Of course not. It simply says unless you are drawn by the Father, you will not come to Jesus. So the supposed support rests on defining drawn to mean drawn by irresistible grace. And this is demonstrated false by Matthew 23:13 so John 6:44 actually provides no support for Total Spiritual Inability.
Does John 6:65 provide any support? No, again. It says no one can come to Jesus unless granted by the Father. Does this say only the pre-selected elect are granted the capacity to come to Jesus? No. What it actually says is if God hardens your heart, like He did with the non-believing Jews in Romans 11:7;25, then you will not be able to come to Jesus. In John 6:65, Judas is in view, hardened so that scripture would be fulfilled.

Does Romans 3:10-18 provide any support for Total Spiritual Inability? No, of course not. If we start with verse 9, to get the context, we see that Paul is supporting the premise that we all sin, we are all under sin, and therefore whether we are under the Law or apart from the Law, we stand condemned. What Calvinism does is take this perfectly straightforward passage and invent support for spiritual inability. Verse 11 says there are none that understand, which begs the question understand what. Calvinism inserts “the milk of the gospel” claiming folks who have not been regenerated cannot understand the gospel. But that assertion is not found anywhere in scripture, especially here. To the contrary Paul says men in the flesh can understand the milk of the gospel, see 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3. Men of the flesh and babes in Christ who have not yet learned from their recently indwelt Spirit, understand the milk.

Are there none who seek God? This begs the question, Are there none who seek God at all times, or none who seek God at any time? Since the idea is to support that we all sin, the idea would seem to be we do not seek God when we are sinning. Certainly we all sin, and therefore our way of life is futile outside of Christ. That is Paul’s point, not Total Spiritual Inability.

Note also that the citation stops at verse 18, but if you keep reading to verse 21 you see that Jesus has been “manifested” clearly teaching folks have enough spiritual ability to comprehend the “manifestation.” Bottom line, the passage provides no actual support for Total Spiritual Inability.

Does Romans 8:6-8 provide support for Total Spiritual Inability? No, of course not. This passage makes three points: (1) the mind set on the flesh is death; (2) the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; and (3) the mind set on the flesh is not even able to subject itself to the Law of God. Every one of these points is clear and requires no additional information to understand its message.. What does Calvinism do? They add in that only regenerate folks are able to set their minds on the Spirit or on God or one the spiritual things that can be discerned by the unregenerate (as taught by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.) So the assertion is without foundation. Next, look at Romans 7:25 where Paul explains that the unregenerate have the capacity to set their minds on spiritual things, but are not able to avoid also serving the law of sin.

How about Ephesians 2:1-3, does this provide actual support for Total Spiritual Inability? No, of course not. This passage makes two very important points: (1) Before we were made alive together with Christ – by God putting us spiritually in Christ – we were dead in our sin, unable to do anything to save ourselves just as a dead person is unable to act in their own behalf. And (2) everyone starts out in this unregenerate condition, by nature children of wrath. Here Calvinism tried to claim being outside of Christ makes us unable to understand the milk of the gospel. But that is nowhere to be found. And we know from Matthew 23:13 that unregenerate folks can be entering heaven, but have not actually entered and therefore have not yet been made alive together with Christ.

This concludes the analysis of the support cited by Calvinism to assert Total Spiritual Inability, and what we have found is none of the passages actually provide any support whatsoever. If you look at the other verses or passages cited for the other doctrines I believe are false, I believe you will find the same thing, only by changing the meanings of words or adding unwarranted inferences can you create support for Calvinism’s other points, except P.

May God Bless

I agree with you 100%.

Eternal security is completely true.

All of the other "points" of Calvinism are completely false, imo.

AiC

 

[Robert Snow]

Yep he is but we never really talked much about it until after I started finding it in Scripture. He also had just before me come to that same conclusion and so we had a LOT of great date nights discussing it. I wonder how many couples go out on date nights with a notebook and a Bible!

Do you believe you would have "started finding it in Scripture" if he were not a Calvinists?

 

[Robert Snow]

I feel only real pity for those groping in darkness and unable to see the utter incapability of man to do anything right in the sight of God, the eternal knowing of me in eternity by the Father, the actual atonement for every one of my sins by the Son, the regenerating and indwelling Spirit. If I did not believe them, it would be hard to believe that I couldn't mess up and lose something like salvation that I did for myself.

{Edited-violation of Baptist Board Posting Rules}

 

[annsni]

Do you believe you would have "started finding it in Scripture" if he were not a Calvinists?

Yes, because he never said anything to me about it.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Yes, because he never said anything to me about it.

you've said that before in your previous post, Ann, yet he missed it. No wonder he missed some great statements about his nature and God's in the Bible, too.
And sometimes, "they" speak like believers in God's sovereign grace were "bobo", a.k.a. dumb.
what's that somebody told me ?
point one finger at others, three are pointing right back at ya.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, I'll admit that these dates I'm speaking of WERE after we were married and we still continue to do the same.

But then again, Bob and I celebrated the 27th anniversary of his asking me to be his wife just on the 28th of April. One of the best decisions I ever made.

Im happy for you both & your daughter is in my prayers.

God love ya

 

[Robert Snow]

you've said that before in your previous post, Ann, yet he missed it. No wonder he missed some great statements about his nature and God's in the Bible, too.
And sometimes, "they" speak like believers in God's sovereign grace were "bobo", a.k.a. dumb.
what's that somebody told me ?
point one finger at others, three are pointing right back at ya.

I didn't miss it. I am just not certain that I believe it. We seek to please those we love. This goes for our theology as well as other things in our lives.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I agree with you 100%.

Eternal security is completely true.

All of the other "points" of Calvinism are completely false, imo.

AiC

Yes it is evident that you always have an opinion & your extremely vocal in it. Opinions are apart of our human character & like other parts of our anatomy, everyone has one. As I side note, noted you didn't add the "H" in there either. No great surprise.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I didn't miss it. I am just not certain that I believe it. We seek to please those we love. This goes for our theology as well as other things in our lives.

& Robert, if you read any of Ann's post over the last year, I'm sure you've noted the Great love Ann & her Husband have for Christ that I'm sure is paramount.

 

[Van]

Reply to Jesusfan,

You forgot the part where the Father first drew the person, sent the Holy Spirit to that person to convict them of their own sinfuless, and the HS used the Word of God to be agent to save them AFTER he had quickened their spirit to actually be in a position to receive/believe it...

God Foreknew/saw those who He would elect unto eternal life in Jesus...
He MUST first prepare them to receive and believe by quickening them allowing them to actually turn to Christ and be saved...

pretty simple, all a work of God from start to finish!

(1) I did not forget the part of where the Father draws someone, I specifically addressed it. God draws people with lovingkindness.

(2) What verse says God sends the Holy Spirit to convict supernaturally, i.e. irresistible grace, to those He draws by lovingkindness. On the other hand, love does not demand its own way.

(3) A person is "saved" when they are forgiven, and they are forgiven after they are spiritually placed in Christ. It is "in Christ" where they are made alive, no one is made alive (quickened) before they are spiritually together with Christ. He is the way, the truth and the "life."

(4) Men in flesh can understand the milk of the gospel, just like three of the four soils in Matthew 13. I have already demonstrated "total spiritual inability" does not apply to all men.

Salvation is all a work of God from beginning to end, but that is the only assertion you made that has actual support. For example God did foreknow those who were called according to His purpose, but what about them did He foreknow? That Christ would redeem believers, because that was His plan when He chose His Redeemer, and therefore God chose us corporately when He chose His Redeemer.

 

[Jerome]

Annsni, am I correctly remembering [which is creepy, I know ] you saying you spent years in a conservative Presbyterian church?