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Deuteronomy 29:29 "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." Sometimes we go beyond what we know into spectulation. We only know what has been revealed unto us and even those things are hard to fathom at times. Our minds are limited and finite.Originally posted by Andy T.:
paidaogos,
I am glad to hear that you affirm those doctrines. I do not pretend to know everything or have it all figured out. Yes, there is some mystery involved when we speak of God and His attributes. Yes, I pray for specific things to happen, even though I believe He has ordained the beginning from the end. But I always try to end my prayers with "but Thy will be done" - as modeled by Jesus in the garden. Christ's prayer was one of utter anguish that no one can ever imagine. Jesus is fully human and fully divine. I do not understand how his dual nature interacts. But at times, the Gospels seem to portray more of his human nature, and other times his divine nature. Maybe his prayer to take the cup from him was in his human nature, but he finishes it in his divine nature (Thy will be done). It is a mystery - we cannot exhaustively comprehend God and His attributes. But God is not completely unknowable. There are certain things about Him that we can know for certain, as revealed in Scripture.
No, most Calvinist's would say that anyone who does not completely embrace the doctrines of sovereign grace is not a Calvinist. We do not question their salvation, just their acceptance of sovereign grace. Are there some Calvinists who may question an Arminians salvation? Yes. Are they correct? To the extent that any of us can be sure a person is actually saved, no. They are not correct. There are Arminians who believe Calvinists are not saved just because they are Calvinists. To use your phrase (which I like by the way)...poppycock! </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, but even amongst those who profess all five points, there is a difference of definition and interpretation of the five points especially among those who are evangelicals. </font>[/QUOTE]Paid, that is one of the reasons why the creeds and confessions were written, in order that churches could agree on a position(s). The Westminster Confession of Faith grounds most Presbyterians on the essential doctrines of the Reformed faith. The 1689 London Baptist Confession is agreed on by many Reformed Baptist churches. The Canons of Dordt were the most eloquent in describing T.U.L.I.P and still are the standard today. But lest we Calvinists be taken out of context, creeds and confessions only have relevance to the degree that they accurately interpret scripture. They are not to be elevated above scripture.Originally posted by paidagogos:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bill Brown:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You have hard-line 5-pointers calling other 5-pointers Arminianists because they believe that someone who does not accept all 5-points with hardness is saved.
I believe we see Jesus' humanity at work. Jesus probably understood the horrifying death He was going to experience. Out of His humanity He prayed to the Father. But He also fell back on the Father's sovereignty, "not my will, but your will". Of course we don't know why He asked this in prayer. We can only extrapolate a reason based on what we know about our Lord's humanity.(As an interesting aside, how do you see Christ's prayer in the Garden? How could Jesus, Who knew God's purpose and will, ask for the cup to pass from Him?)
Charles Meadows said:The OT contains numerous examples of God demonstrating "human behavior". Did God change His mind? Did God have to be "calmed down" by Moses? At face value these seem hard to reconcile with an all powerful God.
We must consider that God interacts with man as He chooses. The fact that He would condescend to speak one to one with a human is remarkable - and we arethe beneficiaries of this remarkable consideration.
In addition the OT is written in a narrative fashion. Because God chooses to interact with us on "human terms" we see these interactions "narrativized" as such. As Paidagogos noted God does have compassion on us. This personified speech reflects His compassion for us and NOT any weakness or limitation on His part.
Andy T. said:Here is a good article that articulates how I approach such passages:
http://www.desiringgod.org/library/topics/foreknowledge/glory_foreknowledge.html