TULIP for Real Life

[atpollard]

Predestination of the elect impunes and impugns.

The teaching impunes the authority of God to deliver righteous punishment for the wicked by saying God's choice sent them to hell.

The teaching impugns God as a righteous judge and His fairness because of showing God does have favorites when He said He did not

And yet God So clearly teaches about HIS predestination ...

• [Acts 4:23-31 NASB] 23 When they had been released, they went to their own [companions] and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 And when they heard [this,] they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, "O Lord, it is You who MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM, 25 who by the Holy Spirit, [through] the mouth of our father David Your servant, said, 'WHY DID THE GENTILES RAGE, AND THE PEOPLES DEVISE FUTILE THINGS? 26 'THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND, AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.' 27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. 29 "And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, 30 while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus." 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and [began] to speak the word of God with boldness.
  
• [Romans 8:29-30 NASB] 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to become] conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
  
• [1Corinthians 2:6-13 NASB] 6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden [wisdom] which God predrestined before the ages to our glory; 8 [the wisdom] which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9 but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND [which] HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." 10 For to us God revealed [them] through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the [thoughts] of a man except the snpirit of the man which is in him? Even so the [thoughts] of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual [thoughts] with spiritual [words.]
  
• [Ephesians 1:3-14 NASB] 3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, [that is,] the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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[Rockson]

I like the way you have articulated your position. It reminds me of many good people at the Church of God (Anderson, Indiana) who first taught me to love scripture. Let me ask you the same question that I struggled with when I started reading scripture for myself ... what do you make of these events:

[John 10:24-33 NIV]
24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." 31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?" 33 "We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."​

The people are asking Jesus to tell them plainly if He is the Messiah. The heart of Jesus' reply is "You do not believe" BECAUSE "you are not my sheep." Even as a new Christian, I caught that Jesus did not say "You people don't belong to me because you will not believe", rather Jesus turns the cause and effect around. They are already not His people (sheep) and THAT is why they do not believe.

I suggest you should have examined the whole chapter. So why just a few verses later did Jesus say the following,

"If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him." John 10:37-38

If there was no possible way these individuals could ever be, or become one of his sheep which you have claimed then why did he go on to encourage them to still believe? Believe he said, that you may KNOW (oh he wanted them to still KNOW) to know and believe that the Father is in me and I in him.

Now I see the verses about the Father's will (John 6:40) and I rejoice with you. However immediately after that comes the grumbling people to whom Jesus replies "Stop your grumbling ... no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them". Didn't Jesus just tell these people to stop complaining because they were not His, and they were not His because the Father had not drawn them?

I'd suggest you really haven't thought through on this. So you're saying because there was no hope even from birth these people could not be saved not even a chance they should just take in stride, "Oh yes, I guess I'm not one of the elect and I'm not going to make heaven my home. That's OK I really have no complaint! I wish everybody all the best who doesn't get punished even though their sins were just as bad as mine for we're all under sin! Guess I just didn't make the cut but that's ok, I won't complain!" Do you really think Jesus would say they would have no right to complain about that?

So what were these people to do....just go their way and try to enjoy the rest of their useless lives knowing their heading for a break wall in the upcoming future? No, a thousand times no! Jesus was basically telling them stop grumbling and resisting the fact of what he was saying that God was his Father and that he was equal with God. John 5:18, John 10:38 As for why the Father was drawing some and not others had nothing to do with Calvinistic claims but rather those refusing to be drawn was because they had chosen to stay in rebellion against God. God was seeking to draw ALL MEN unto himself John 12:32 but men must choose to cooperate. In John 10 :37 he STILL sought to get them to repent and believe which means God was still seeking to draw them to himself. John 10:37

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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