Tulip: Irresistable Grace

[SpiritualMadMan]

I have always thought that this was best illustrated by this analogy...

It is said, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".

But, you can lead that horse in the wilderness until it is thirsty enough to drink!

But, is it really completely irrestible?

I mean if for some reason the water has a smell, and that horse is convinced that it is poisoned, will he not continue to refuse to drink until he dies of thirst?

Consider:
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

It would seem that being able to refuse HIM, or to Turn Away, presumably by free-will and self choice is a possibility?

So, how is God's Grace irresistable?

 

[billwald]

IG is NOT a voice in one's head that screams "REPENT CONFESS."

She (Wisdom) is a inaudible whisper which can't be ignored because you don't hear it.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

IG is NOT a voice in one's head that screams "REPENT CONFESS."

She (Wisdom) is a inaudible whisper which can't be ignored because you don't hear it.

Non Sequitar... Huh!?

 

[DHK]

Irresistible Grace?
It is not a Scriptural point.

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51)

 

[glfredrick]

Irresistible Grace?
It is not a Scriptural point.

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51)

Does not this verse indicate that the Holy Spirit is making the advance against the lost soul?

How long might one resist? Once, twice, forever? Therein may be your dilemma... I'd suggest that many of those who did resist when those words were uttered later came to faith, but of course, I cannot prove it because we don't have huge lists of names at our fingertips. I do know that the church grew by leaps and bounds after that sermon -- 5000 on one day, 3000 on another, and "added daily" for quite some time.

 

[DHK]

Does not this verse indicate that the Holy Spirit is making the advance against the lost soul?

How long might one resist? Once, twice, forever? Therein may be your dilemma... I'd suggest that many of those who did resist when those words were uttered later came to faith, but of course, I cannot prove it because we don't have huge lists of names at our fingertips. I do know that the church grew by leaps and bounds after that sermon -- 5000 on one day, 3000 on another, and "added daily" for quite some time.

The numbers do not matter.
If only one individual is able to resist the Holy Spirit, then obviously the Holy Spirit can be resisted. That is exactly the point that Stephen made. Their fathers always resisted the Holy Spirit, and this is what they were doing. We know later that Saul was convicted and came to the Lord, possibly in part by Stephen's death.
However the Scripture is clear-cut. The Holy Spirit can be resisted, grieved, lied to, quenched, etc. To say that one cannot do these things to the Holy Spirit is not Scriptural.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

..............

It would seem that being able to refuse HIM, or to Turn Away, presumably by free-will and self choice is a possibility?

.........

GE:
Problem is, you 'presume' where you should simply observe; because man from his mother's womb, refuse-D God in his grace, and has been a turned-away all the time already. Man is no longer man before Eden-gate.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Irresistible Grace?
It is not a Scriptural point.

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. (Acts 7:51)

GE:

Jesus spoke to reprobates. Reprobates are easily recognisable; they always behave like unregenerate. Elect can always be mistaken for reprobates because they look just like any reprobates. But Jesus knew better. If grace were not irresistible Jesus would have had no argument with the "stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears". He came as their judgment of condemnation undaunted by their arrogance. Jesus knew better and had the upper hand. Grace is irresistible even in its manifestation as the wrath of God. The haughty Jews could not withstand Jesus the Servant of the LORD. Never.

 

[DHK]

GE:

Jesus spoke to reprobates. Reprobates are easily recognisable; they always behave like unregenerate. Elect can always be mistaken for reprobates because they look just like any reprobates. But Jesus knew better. If grace were not irresistible Jesus would have had no argument with the "stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears". He came as their judgment of condemnation undaunted by their arrogance. Jesus knew better and had the upper hand. Grace is irresistible even in its manifestation as the wrath of God. The haughty Jews could not withstand Jesus the Servant of the LORD. Never.

Paul did not speak to reprobates when he said:

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 4:30)

To grieve the Holy Spirit, one must to an extent have to resist the Holy Spirit.

However, we are speaking of the unsaved in the first place are we not?
You have made my point entirely. Yes, he was speaking to reprobates. That is what we all are when we are unsaved. And they resisted the Holy Spirit and therefore would not come to salvation. That is the whole point of Irresistible Grace, is it not? So irresistible that one must come to salvation--that no free choice is involved. In your answer you took the Arminian position.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Does not this verse indicate that the Holy Spirit is making the advance against the lost soul?

How long might one resist? Once, twice, forever? Therein may be your dilemma... I'd suggest that many of those who did resist when those words were uttered later came to faith, but of course, I cannot prove it because we don't have huge lists of names at our fingertips. I do know that the church grew by leaps and bounds after that sermon -- 5000 on one day, 3000 on another, and "added daily" for quite some time.

One further thought, is that Jesus was speaking to the Jewish Leadership and we have strong reason to believe that most of them "Resisted" unto their death...

This might come back to the horse that is convinced the water is poisoned, and then dies of thirst.

Also, remember, no one has said resistance is easy, for the way of the transgressor is hard.

T.I.C. And, God is not the Borg who go around saying, "Resistance Is Futile". (Sorry couldn't resist!)

 

[BobRyan]

I mean if for some reason the water has a smell, and that horse is convinced that it is poisoned, will he not continue to refuse to drink until he dies of thirst?

Consider:
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

It would seem that being able to refuse HIM, or to Turn Away, presumably by free-will and self choice is a possibility?

So, how is God's Grace irresistable?

You are right - the Bible does not say that God's Grace is "irresistable".

In fact Christ said that certain Jewish leaders "rejected God's purpose for them" and in Acts 13 Paul argues that he gave the gospel first to the Jews but they chose to reject it.

In John 1 we are told "He came to HIS OWN but HIS OWN did not receive Him".

Gospel Christianity is a "whosoever will" Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob
___________________________________
John 8:32 "The Truth shall make you free"

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You are right - the Bible does not say that God's Grace is "irresistable".

In fact Christ said that certain Jewish leaders "rejected God's purpose for them" and in Acts 13 Paul argues that he gave the gospel first to the Jews but they chose to reject it.

In John 1 we are told "He came to HIS OWN but HIS OWN did not receive Him".

Gospel Christianity is a "whosoever will" Gospel.

GE:

Re:
BR, “You are right - the Bible does not say that God's Grace is "irresistable".”

GE:
What does your ‘gospel’ differ from the legalists’ demand for a ‘law’ ‘given’ in the NT for Christians to keep the Sabbath, because it’s not WRITTEN in so many words? It IS ‘written’ in the Bible that God's Grace is irresistible— for the eye of faith, just like it IS ‘written’ in the NT for the Christian to keep the Sabbath— if only he believed.

But nothing I can do can do anything about the fact unbelievers cannot find any of it ‘written’ in the Bible.

Re:
BR, “In fact Christ said that certain Jewish leaders "rejected God's purpose for them" and in Acts 13 Paul argues that he gave the gospel first to the Jews but they chose to reject it.
In John 1 we are told "He came to HIS OWN but HIS OWN did not receive Him".”

GE:
So that— the truth UNREGENERATE man acts exactly according to the dictates of his FALLEN TOTALLY DEPRAVED self and nature —for BobRyan proves God’s Grace is resistible.

Bright!

But of the true number, everyone shall know Gospel Christianity is a "whosoever will" ONLY, Christianity.

 

[glfredrick]

The numbers do not matter.
If only one individual is able to resist the Holy Spirit, then obviously the Holy Spirit can be resisted. That is exactly the point that Stephen made. Their fathers always resisted the Holy Spirit, and this is what they were doing. We know later that Saul was convicted and came to the Lord, possibly in part by Stephen's death.
However the Scripture is clear-cut. The Holy Spirit can be resisted, grieved, lied to, quenched, etc. To say that one cannot do these things to the Holy Spirit is not Scriptural.

You know what is terrifying?

That some person, on their own effort, comes into one of our churches and finds "religion" and goes to hell unsaved. Right with that is the one who desperately "seeks" God in any number of ways, but can never seem to find Him. We've all seen these... Baptized 5 times, coming to the altar to re-dedicate their life over and over again. They never realize that salvation is of God and they spend their life chasing something they can never attain -- or attain something that isn't worth chasing!

I'd suggest that this describes about half of what we call the "church" in this and every age (based on the number of Jesus' parables that spoke a message of called ones who did not respond properly -- and noting that HE did the calling).

The picture I am painting causes one to be in a very desperate condition... They are weighed heavily with a sense that they cannot find or attain God. They are absolutely correct!

Finally, one day, they just give up and toss it all over to God... And He arrives. He will not share His glory with another -- even a well-meaning "religious" person.

This man states it as clearly as anyone. Just substitute "Catholic" for any other religion...

http://www.christian-faith.com/testimonies/irishpriest.html

 

[Dr. Walter]

You are right - the Bible does not say that God's Grace is "irresistable".

In fact Christ said that certain Jewish leaders "rejected God's purpose for them" and in Acts 13 Paul argues that he gave the gospel first to the Jews but they chose to reject it.

In John 1 we are told "He came to HIS OWN but HIS OWN did not receive Him".

Gospel Christianity is a "whosoever will" Gospel.

in Christ,

Bob
___________________________________
John 8:32 "The Truth shall make you free"

The Bible teaches that the lost unregenerated man RESISTS the Holy Spirit always and only (Acts 7:51; "ye do ALWAYS resist" Rom. 8:7 "neither indeed can be"). The effectual and irresistable call is spelled out in such passages as 1 Cor. 1:26-31; Rom. 8:28-31. The Bible never promises eternal life to "whosoever will not" but only to "whosoever wills" and in the elect it is "God that worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure.." For it is God that makes them willing in the day of his power (Psa. 110:3) by giving them a new heart and new spirit (Ezek. 36:26-27) that previously they were without and demonstrated by their inability to hear, believe and receive (Deut. 5:29; 29:4).

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

That's more like the Gospel!

 

[glfredrick]

The Bible teaches that the lost unregenerated man RESISTS the Holy Spirit always and only (Acts 7:51; "ye do ALWAYS resist" Rom. 8:7 "neither indeed can be"). The effectual and irresistable call is spelled out in such passages as 1 Cor. 1:26-31; Rom. 8:28-31. The Bible never promises eternal life to "whosoever will not" but only to "whosoever wills" and in the elect it is "God that worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure.." For it is God that makes them willing in the day of his power (Psa. 110:3) by giving them a new heart and new spirit (Ezek. 36:26-27) that previously they were without and demonstrated by their inability to hear, believe and receive (Deut. 5:29; 29:4).

Well said!

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible teaches that the lost unregenerated man RESISTS the Holy Spirit always and only (Acts 7:51; "ye do ALWAYS resist" Rom. 8:7 "neither indeed can be"). The effectual and irresistable call is spelled out in such passages as 1 Cor. 1:26-31; Rom. 8:28-31. The Bible never promises eternal life to "whosoever will not" but only to "whosoever wills" and in the elect it is "God that worketh in you both TO WILL and TO DO of His good pleasure.." For it is God that makes them willing in the day of his power (Psa. 110:3) by giving them a new heart and new spirit (Ezek. 36:26-27) that previously they were without and demonstrated by their inability to hear, believe and receive (Deut. 5:29; 29:4).

In Romans 8 we have some who "Walk according to the spirit" and others who do not. In Romans 8 it is ONLY those who CHOOSE to set their mind on the things of the flesh in response to the drawin of the Holy Spirit that that are in rebellion. The text does not say that the drawing of God through the Holy Spirit is powerless, does not enable choice etc.

In fact John 12:32 Jesus says "I will DRAW ALL unto Me".

In John 16 we find that the Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment". That convicting that drawing enables the choice that depravity disables and SOME will then choose to respond while others will not.

Just when Calvinism needs to "blame God" we find that the sytem is NOT doing what Calvinism claims - it is not making the choice for success vs failure God's - but rather as we see in the Garden of Eden and with the angels in heaven - it is ours to choose obedience or rebellion.

 

[billwald]

>In fact Christ said that certain Jewish leaders "rejected God's purpose for them" and in Acts 13 Paul argues that he gave the gospel first to the Jews but they chose to reject it.

Problem is resolved if irresistible grace is equated to regeneration. If the Holy Spirit regenerates a person that person will not resist conversion. Regeneration precedes conversion and conversion is the issue. Rejecting God's purpose is refusing conversion. Conversion being the human's response to hearing the Gospel.

 

[glfredrick]

In Romans 8 we have some who "Walk according to the spirit" and others who do not. In Romans 8 it is ONLY those who CHOOSE to set their mind on the things of the flesh in response to the drawin of the Holy Spirit that that are in rebellion. The text does not say that the drawing of God through the Holy Spirit is powerless, does not enable choice etc.

In fact John 12:32 Jesus says "I will DRAW ALL unto Me".

In John 16 we find that the Holy Spirit "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment". That convicting that drawing enables the choice that depravity disables and SOME will then choose to respond while others will not.

Just when Calvinism needs to "blame God" we find that the sytem is NOT doing what Calvinism claims - it is not making the choice for success vs failure God's - but rather as we see in the Garden of Eden and with the angels in heaven - it is ours to choose obedience or rebellion.

Calvinism does not blame God for anything... Anti-Calvinist preachers say that Calvinism blames God because they cannot reconcile the fact that God is sovereign in all things with the same fact that God gave we humans enough rope to hang ourselves. Every time I hear this argument pressed forward (again) I wonder just who is educating everyone about Calvinism. Just has to be some sort of Chick-Track-level education.

The place where you miss the boat is when you have a priori decided that our fate is dependent on whether or not we DO something. The truth of Scripture, no matter which theological position one is (apart from full-on Pelagianism, a heretical belief), is that IF we are born, we are sinners separated from God. Of course, we ARE all born, so we are all -- as Scripture says plainly -- sinners. God has sent His Word, prophets, and Jesus Christ into the world to tell us, and yes, convict us of our sin and then through the completed work of Christ, to redeem us and give us new life.

Jesus makes this clear in John 3, 17-18:
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[BobRyan]

>
Problem is resolved if irresistible grace is equated to regeneration. If the Holy Spirit regenerates a person that person will not resist conversion. Regeneration precedes conversion

Well then there is the problem - there is no Bible text for any of that.

And that is also the "blame problem" for certain types of Calvinism because it makes God the capricious arbitrary-selector for regeneration -- thus if someone is not "regenerated" the only one to blame is God since even Calvinists admit that a person cannot "regenerate themselves".

in Christ,

Bob