Turn About is Fair Play - Why I Like Conservatives:

Post it,

Thanks for the encouraging words.

I don''t agree with liberal interpretations of Scripture of course, but I do understand that when conversing (or debating) with liberals about interpretation of Scripture I have to do more than simply argue from the assumption that the conservative interpretation is correct, even though I beleive it is corect. Why? Because you don't accept my assumption. If I were to continue going on as if you do accept my assumption, then I wouldn't be talking with you, but rahter passed you, and I would not be engaged in dialogue, but monologue.

I differentiate (sensibly I think) between intramural discussions (among conservatives) and inter-mural discussions. When discussing things with conservatives there is a shared asumption about the accuracy of conservatie interpretations, and we can go on from there. With liberlas I have to work a bit harder, find the common ground, the shared assumptions, before I can hope to go into a constructive dialogue. Then at least, even if we don't agree at the end, finish on the same page, we'll have at least a chance of doing so, having started from the same page.

She eagle:

I am sorry you feel that it is a blame game. It isn't. I am talking about real life interactions with fellow conservatives. And it can harldy be "liberal" when the comments are coming from a conservative!

I am not talking about calling sin sin. I am talking about how conservatives go about caling sin sin. And I find that they do so with alarming regularity in a spirit of sanctimony and self righteousness.

"What liberals want and have achieved in many churches is a social gospel."

There is truth to that comment. But we must not forget that it is very much a contrast to conservative proclamamtion, a proclamation that often fails to appreciate and live out the social implications of the Gospel. Rather than appropriating the element of social responsibility that ought to be properly evangelical, conservatives historically (IMO) have conceded the social ministry field to liberalism, simply because it is tagged as a "liberal" field. For example it is only relatively recently that conservatives have ceased merely wagging their fingers in condemnation to help single moms, pregnant teens, aids patients and the like. I have been involved with Crisis Pregnancy Centers, and have found it often difficult to get people to see that true ministry must move beyond "saving babies" to supporting the families that "saving babies" creates.

About feeling threatened. It is intersting then that liberl points and discussions are treated as they are.

I am afraid that you will not udnerstand the point until you move beyond arguing from assumptions (that the conservative interpretation is the true interpretation). You cannot expect to convince (or even have real discussion with) people who don't accept your asumption. See what I said to post it.

As to your chalenge, I must remind you that I am, myself, a biblical conservative. So don't expect me to respond to it.

Oh, and since I AM a biblical conservative. I wouldn't try to claim that you can speak for all biblical conservatives too much.

 

SheEagle:

"In what way? You mentioned pregnancy crisis centers. But those have been around for years (run by conservative Christians, BTW). So what else?"

I also mentioned aids ministries. And you missed what I said about CPCs. It has been a difficult road to see them care about the families created by their interventions. They wanted to avoid the abortion wthout thought for what happens to the girl and her baby afterward. They cared for "righteouness" in terms of avoiding abortion but litle for "justice" in terms of helping the people after the choice to not abort the baby. Fortunately that has changed.

And might I point out that to say that CPCs have ben around ofr years is misleading. The time that they have cared about their clients and not just the babies within them has been short comapred to the total time of CPC existence, and a mere drop in the ocean of time in which conservatism ha been around.

"When I discuss things as a conservative with a liberal, I find the foundations from a liberal viewpoint are built on sinking shifting sand. To blow to & fro in the breeze depending on the "social climate" or what is considered to be "politically correct" at the moment. No real foundation there. And never any Scriptural proof for their position. On anything they believe."

There is some truth to that. It isn;t the qwhole truth, but there is truth there. Many social aspects of the Gospel they tend to bring out for example are very much Scriptural.

"That is why I don't expect anyone from the liberal camp will take up my challenge. It isn't even in interpretation of Scriptures either. It is that conservatives take Scripture at face value. They see things in black and white. So did Jesus. He saw the black and said "go and sin no more." Liberals see nearly everything in gray, from what I've observed. As seen from postings on this board, even in doctrine, liberals claim they don't believe in the virgin birth or that abortion is murder, etc. They have a distorted view of the fundamental truths of the Gospel, let alone the U.S. Constitution."

That is far too simplistic an assessment. Conservatives don;t "take Scriture at face value" in a consistent way any more than liberals do. We just like to have that conceit. Many times it IS about interpretations. There are legitmate questions that can be raised against conservative interpretations. Some however are just matters of world view. Fior instance Post it is currently trying to re-write a little history so as to make heresy just another option in a disagreement without regard for history. That sort fo thing is a doctrine is search of a reasonto be. (Sorry Post, that's just how I see it.)

As fro your coment about how conservatives would take the side of Jesus in "go and sin no more" that isn't true. They would have been in the mob holding the stones. They are the ones who were asking Jesus to hold up the Law at face value. Jesus got the woman off the hook by creating the circumstance that prevented judgment from being carried out (no two witnesses). Now certainly He did say that her action was sin. But he did not take teh Scriture at face value, nor was He among the conservatives that day. He refused to apply truth in the way the conservatives wanted.

And really that has been one of my points here. Conservatives tend to hold to truth while applying that truth in a way that can actually defeat the purpose of that truth.

"You may claim to be a conservative, but your posts imply the contrary. (That is just my conservative opinion, of course! [[Razz]] )"

And it is a wrong opinion. You cannot name a single doctrine that I have denied or called into question. I may well be, for all you know, more conservative than you. The only basis you have for doubting my conservativism is my refusal to villify liberals as people, and my determination to acknoweldge the positives they have.

And the very idea that my conservatism should be questioned on that account merely proves my point. You are not the first, nor do I think you wil be the last, to do so.

"

 

James 2:14-17; 1John 3:17,18

 

I don't really believe those who are true Christians are conservatives at all. I think the conservatives would be the Pharisees and Sadducees of old. I believe the true church is moderate. Neither liberal or conservative. They are in the middle going down the straight and narrow hiway.

I feel liberal means too far left and conservative means too far right. Moderate is right on target with Christianity.

 

wow, am I ever glad that I've only been exposed to conservative Baptists since I have been saved...My Preacher had told me that there are "Baptists" out there that do not believe in good old-fashioned bible preaching and teaching and who try to tell you that everything is ok, we shouldn't condemn anyone....excuse me while I throw up....Lets see, I've seen posts from Baptist Ministers? who come out in support of homosexuality, abortion, drinking and thats just in the last week or so....One of the things that I've noticed that liberals seem to skate around or just really don't get is...Conservative Baptists do not hate sinners or condemn sinners but believe that the bible tells us to hate the sin itself! I'm just narrow minded enough that if the Bible tells me its sin, then I just believe it is sin...take a look at Romans 1:25-31 and tell me what God thinks about the sin of homosexuality......A true Bible Believing, Born Again, Bible Preaching CONSERVATIVE Baptist believes in taking a stance as far away from the world as we can and can make the distinction between sin and the sinner...And from what I have seen so far on this board is that liberals seem to take their stance as close to the world as they possibly can get...doesn't the Bible tell us to come out from among them...to be separate?

 

Hi, SheEagle911. You have made some good points concerning how conservatives are to be understood. I would like to add, however, a few points concerning those that might consider themselves as something other than conservative, for example, moderate to liberal in orientation.

SheEagle911: Conservatives believe in the sanctity of human life from conception. Conservatives stand for defending the rights of the most helpless and weakest among us.

Norm: In the main, moderates and liberals can be described as such, too. Although some would contend that human life does not begin at conception and that abortion is not always a decision that one should find fault, a hallmark of liberalism, at least, is a concern for the weak and marginalized, even if such concern by some is faulted for its sometimes not well-considered policies.

SheEagle911: Conservatives take a stand for traditional family values. Dad, mom, and children. Like God and nature planned.

Norm: The difference on this point is not a value placed on family and its integrity as an entity in which love is expressed and nurtured, but rather as to what may constitute a family.

SheEagle911: Conservatives believe in individual opportunity for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. So did our forefathers. Liberals believe the government (all of us taxpayers) should provide for an individual's life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness...from cradle to grave.

Norm: As far as I can tell, liberals also believe in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and if I am not mistaken, government is comprised of democrats, republicans, independents, etc., all of which have varying viewpoints from the more traditional to the more progressive. While in theory more progressive people may favor a degree of government beyond the more conservative, in practice, government under the leadership of both orientations tends to expand. And as far as I can tell, conservatives favor an expansion of the military to protect their ability of pursue life, liberty, and happiness.

SheEagle911: Conservatives believe in educational excellence, teaching the basic three R's and competition for excellence. Be all that you can be. Liberals believe in a touchy-feely education where everybody is equal no matter what and where the playing ground is always level. Even though life isn't a level playing field.

Norm: That American educational systems have sometimes stressed self-esteem at the expense of excellence is documented in the media quite well. Often such is overstated, but surely an element of truth exists for the basic argumentation. It seems to me that liberals, like their conservative counterparts also desire an educational system in which their children will be well prepared for life. Further, that the playing field is not level is not questioned, that is should remain so is, however. Paul tells us that in Christ distinctions among people begin to fade. I would think that both conservatives and liberals believe that opportunities should exist for all, and that both believe that not all will avail themselves of said opportunities, unfortunately.

SheEagle911: Conservatives believe in putting America & America's interest first, above all other nations, and especially our enemies. Liberals really don't believe we have any enemies, and on the small chance that we do, if we weren't so rich and shared all our wealth with the rest of the planet, then everyone would like America.

Norm: Given recent corporate scandals and that some of the CEOs from corporations of said scandals identify with conservative congregations, one might question this to a degree. I am of the opinion that whether one is conservative or liberal, positions of power sometimes lead to polices that promote the self-interest of a few against the good of the whole. Actually, of the industrialized nations, America gives one of the smallest percentages of her economic wealth as aid to other countries. If I am not mistaken, even liberals have spoken against terrorist acts, and, like conservatives who have also spoken, are also interested in a peaceful solution to our international situation.

SheEagle911: Conservatives believe in God, Country, Family. Conservatives believe in Judeo-Christian values. Conservatives believe in separation of Church and State....not pushing God out of the state altogether.

Norm: Liberals can be said to believe in the same, but might be a bit more strict concerning the separation of church and state, however, I am familiar with many conservatives that are quite convinced that separation of church and state is something vital for the integrity of either. I for one don't think it possible to remove God from state issues, given that God's letting be is the 'foundation' for all that has ontological integrity. And as it has been stated, as long as there are exams, God will be invoked.

SheEagle911: Traditional conservative values built this great country. Men who believed in God, men who believed in traditional families, men of moral courage & passion who bled & died for our Country & Constitution. They didn't worry about political correctness when it came to declaring treason, either. Like in John Andre (who was a Christian, BTW, and Brittish), or Benedict Arnold. They took a stand for America first.

Norm: America is generally considered a progressive culture, and talk of a traditional culture is a matter of 'figure-ground.' We are an individualistic culture in such work conducted by Hofstede instead of a collectivist culture, which tend to be more traditional in orientation. Both types of cultures have their strengths and weaknesses. The thoughts reflected in our constitution and other founding documents were quite progressive at the time. It is my understanding that the founding fathers and countrymen and countrywomen were of various faith perspectives, from the conservative to the liberal.

SheEagle911: Conservatives believe that a criminal can only be changed by a change of heart (through a born-again or religious experience). Liberals believe everyone can be psychoanalyzed and/or rehabilitated. They really don't believe in evil, even though some of them say they do.

Norm: Actually, Karl Barth, who is often criticized as being too liberal, would have agreed with this statement. His theology did not consider social conditions very much, which led to criticisms leveled against him for such by Niebuhr. Liberals also believe in the power of God to transform lives and society. In fact, they believed it so much in the 19th century that they went a bit overboard with the rate in which they thought the kingdom of God was being ushered into human history. Actually, liberals also realize that there is a fallenness to humanity and that not all are interested in being human at levels that Jesus challenged us to achieve. In terms of evil, it was the neo-orthodox position, which is often criticized as being liberal, that stresses the radical evil that man is capable of achieving. With our ability to do tremendous good, e.g., medicine, we also have the technology to do great harm, e.g., nuclear weapons. Liberals, thus, at least those who have a sense of realism, also understand the reality of evil in the world, even if they may have differing strategies in how to combat it than those methods advocated by some conservatives.

SheEagle911: Conservatives arguments always make perfect sense and are based on moral and Christian principles. Liberals base their beliefs on what is popular at the moment, the latest fad, politically correct, or on opinion polls.

Norm: Typically arguments, or should I say, likely all arguments, are not likely exhaustive in meaning or understanding, and at some point, are more or less viable. Actually liberals draw upon many of the same church fathers and ancient and modern philosophers that conservatives read. That there exist conservative theologians and liberal theologians is not argued, but none that I know of have systems of thought that do not have holes somewhere. They simply begin with different assumptions and seek to logically follow their assumptions. Even liberal theologians disagree with each other, as do conservatives. Theology is a task that is not complete, at least not for those who hold that God is an inexhaustible mystery.

She Eagle911: If a conservative doesn't like you, you will know it after a short time. A liberal will pretend to like you for awhile but will let you have it when you challenge the rationality or logic of their position.

Norm: I would venture a guess that disingenuousness is normally distributed throughout the population. That is, one is likely to find a rear-end in most churches. And likely most of us at some time are that rear-end that people find.

SheEAgle911: I would rather go down fighting for moral values and Biblical truth when I face my Maker on Judgment day, than to give in to win a popularity contest among my peers or anybody else.

Norm: It is my belief that most people seek to live a life of integrity. If this is true for a conservative, I see nothing that would prevent it as a statement for a liberal, too.

SheEagle911: Conservatives are not wishy-washy. They take a stand, by george.

Norm: Unless one is without sin, we all, conservative and liberal alike, are guilty of being wishy-washy. But to the extent that most desire to live a life of integrity, we take stands to the best of our ability, albeit different stands at times.

SheEagle911: I would rather be caught walking in a dark alley with a conservative (than with a liberal) when confronted by a mugger/rapist. A liberal would try to psychoanalyze the mugger/rapist or give in to his demands. A conservative would just blow him away with his .357.

Norm: Hopefully the conservative will be a faster draw, and if not, you have a bullet proof vest that actually helps. Why escalate the situation to one of life and death if you have a choice.

SheEagle911: Because we believe in the 2nd Amendment.

Norm: I think you are referring to gun registration as a no-no or a waiting period. OK, I understand. You might have a point here. However, ask James Brady for his opinion.

Norm: SheEagle911, enjoy the holiday; it's been nice "speaking" with you, and it is good to know that we have many points of commonality.

[ August 31, 2002, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Norm ]

 

Amen GIG thanks for the truth, hey if I don't meet you before I'll see you when we get to teh other side.
Murph

 

I think being a conservative is great. It is also easy to be a conservative in some ways.

I don't have to make up excuses for why I feel the Bible is wrong; I can read the Bible, trust it is true and follow it. While the liberals have to try to seek science's help to attempt to say a fertalized egg isn't life. They have to throw away Paul's writings so they can have a pastor that their emotions want but that Scripture won't support.

Conservative lifestyle is also simpler.

I don't have to alline myself with other organizations to get them to alline with me. I just have to alline myself with God's word, follow the narrow path, try to bring others with me and be true to the Lord. I will leave all the political correctness behind and just be honest. A garbage man is a garbage man, not a refuse engineer; abortion is murder; spiking trees in hopes to hurt or kill lumberjacks is unbelieveable.

Being a consevative Christian is monitorable by Scripture.

If I have a question, I read Scripture. If someone asks me a question, I read Scripture. Something is wrong in my life, I read Scripture. etc. I don't have to poll 1000 parents, singles, homeless, homosexuals, drug adicts or small woodland creatures.

Being conservative I don't have to change with the flow, style, feelings or emotions of others.

I don't have to make excuses for others just to make them feel better about themselves. I can tell them they were wrong, in a loving manner, show them through Scripture, and help them see Christ if they are willing.

The list of reasons I like being a conservative Christian could go on and on. Let me say this one last thing. I can go to bed at night with a clear conscience fore the lifestyle I have tried to live is supportable by Scripture not my worldly thoughts. The will of man is sinful, but God's will is holy and pure.

 

Given that conservatives tend to be authoritarian, you just might. You might enjoy the following article at http://www.swps.edu.pl/esipp/shestopal%20authoritarianism.html