Turning Mary into an adultress

I will have to look at the Hebrews 12 passage a little closer, but glancing at it it appears to talk about the covenant we have come to. It is not the Old Covenant, but the New. We don't come to a physical Jerusalem (i.e. a certain place we have to go to), but we come to God's Jerusalem, in the spiritual sense. It is clear from Rev. 21:2 that the New Jerusalem is in heaven now and is to come down one day. I don't see any connection b/t the church and the New Jerusalem.

Neal

 

Could it be.....

That the Blessed Virgin is the prototype of what each one of us will be in Heaven?

To understand where I am going with this, please read the following well written article by Peter Kreeft, who is a philosopher extraudinare!

IS THERE SEX IN HEAVEN?

Now before you go ballistic on me.....

READ THE ARTICLE!!!

It's not what you think it is, I promise you. I was pleasantly surprized that Kreeft made such a clear explanation of how earthly realities are symbols of heavenly truths which we cannot understand or experience this side of the grave.

I hope this article can open up a discussion of what our marriages on earth, and in Heaven, are to be both symbol and reality of.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Neal--no problem. I only asked because you said you were floored. I thought if you read what I sent you may disagree though not quite be floored.

"I see you quote different people, Dan, but I am interested in the Scriptures. It is clear in the verse 3AM pointed out that Joseph 'knew' Mary at some point."

Perhaps Carson could jump in here but I know there are places in Scripture where the word till or until does not mean what we normally associate with it now. Even now until does not necessarily mean what you are saying.
Consider: "Michal the daughter of Saul has no children until the day of her death." 2 Sam 6:23 Can we assume she had children after her death?
Regarding the location of the grave of Moses it was said in Dt 34:6 that no man knows "until this present day." no one has known since that day either.
There are other examples in the Bible of the use of till and until that do not mean what you are asserting.
Mt 1:25 does not prove Mary was not a Virgin after Jesus was born.


I quoted different people, not so much to convince anyone, as to show that what floors some now has been believed by many since early Christianity and also by some of those who were instrumental in the starting of the Protestant movement.

 

Neal,
"I am still floored that it is thought by Catholics (is it official dogma?) that Mary remained a virgin." Yes it is official dogma."

Funny but if you go back to the early post apostolic days of the Church when they didn't have email and it was rare that people left the town that the grew up in, when there was no planes, trains, and automobiles, internet or even pony express, worldwide (judging by the writings of the Early Church Fathers) from east to west, north to south over thousands of miles everyone (except I think it was Tertullian) that spoke on this issue said that Mary was perpetually a virgin and every citation says that either the brothers of Jesus were cousins or that they were Joseph's children (non-contradictory possibilities by the way). Now isn't that amazing.I know this is unbelievable so if you would like me to take the time to put together a list of quotes, just ask. Yet today the Johnny come lately Protestants say "oh no this can't be".

Blessings

 

I see nothing wrong with the title. The title simply
sets up the question to be asked. She did not say
she was an adulterer but prepared to ask if some
make her into an adulterer through their concepts
regarding her.

I have not seen a place where she did this, and if
it did happen, I regret that it happened. I read very
few threads, as time is limited.

I know nothing about the tabloids, but I have heard
people make this statement in jest. In no way have
those I know used it as she is blamed for using it
here. I cannot see the thoughts and intents of her
heart; I just do not have that ability.

8o) I am sorry, but you just simply are not on my
mind. 8o) I was commenting about your post and
about others with whom I lived in Minnesota, and,
admittedly, about others who post here who are
from there. I have simply been amazed lately.

 

"I know nothing about the tabloids, but I have heard
people make this statement in jest. In no way have
those I know used it as she is blamed for using it
here. I cannot see the thoughts and intents of her
heart; I just do not have that ability."

Well, when it is your beliefs that are being jested about perhaps you will see things differently. Personally I don't think it is funny. And that is excatly where that phrase comes from, isn't it AngelMom.

 

Now,

2 Sam 6:23 As to Michal daughter of Saul, she had no child till the day of her death

As you say:

I must say that it is TOTALLY apparent from this verse that...Michal HAD other children after her death

1 Tim 4:13 till I come, give heed to the reading, to the exhortation, to the teaching;

again

I must say that it is TOTALLY apparent from this verse that...once Paul came, Timothy NO longer read, exhorted(sp?) or tought

the same apply to:

1 Cor 15,25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet

after this, would He still reign? or that this means that that He will not longer reign once he put all his enemies under his feet?

Lk 1,80 John grew up and became strong in spirit. Then he lived out in the wilderness until he began his public ministry to Israel

where did he lived after he began his public ministry?

Mat 28,20 And behold, *I* am with you all the days, until the completion of the age.

so that this mean He is not going to be with us after the completion of the age


Psalm 110,1 The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit in honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet."

once He humbles his enemies, will He be removed from His right hand and sit of honor?


If "until" is interpreted as "not until that moment then, after that moment the opposite happens", then we have a real challenge with the verses above.

In all honestly I am going to have to disagree with your statement:

"I must say that it is TOTALLY apparent from this verse that...

I think "until" can be also interpreted, based on verses above, that:

Until that moment it did happen or didn't happened but after that moment, we just don't know.

1 Tim 4:13 till I come, give heed to the reading, to the exhortation, to the teaching;

Timothy read, exhorted and taught until Paul came and after as well

2 Sam 6:23 As to Michal daughter of Saul, she had no child till the day of her death

no children before her death no children after her death

Mat 28,20 And behold, *I* am with you all the days, until the completion of the age

He will be with us until the end of times and He will be with us after the end of times

So back to Mat 1,25:

"And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son"

Didn't know her before Jesus was born, didn't know her after

Thanks
Armando

 

Well, if this ossuary they discovered in the Middle East is authentic, then the idea of James being the cousin of Jesus probably goes out the window. The ossuary belongs to James the SON (not nephew)of Joseph, the brother of Jesus. This means that: (1) James was Jesus' "step"-brother (Joseph's son, but not Mary's); or (2) James was Jesus' "half"-brother (son of Joseph and Mary). Option #1 would of course be the Protestant view, while Option #2 is held by the Eastern Orthodox (and now, apparently by some Catholics ).

 

I heard a commentary on the radio about this.

Calculate the population numbers...

How many in that approximate period would have been named James...

How many James would have had a father named Joseph...

How many James would have had a father named Joseph and a brother named Jesus...

Turns out that, statistically, there could have been a rather large number of people named James with a father named Joseph and a brother named Jesus in that area at that time.

So it would not have necessarily have been the James, Joseph and Jesus that you are thinking of.

 

The Bible clearly states that Jesus had several half brothers and sisters. I never could understand how anyone could perscribe to the theory that Mary remained a virgin for her entire life when the Bible which should be the authority for Christian's clearly says otherwise. James of the Bible is Jesus' most famous half sibling.

Laurenda

 

You say "clearly" because you are reading the English (not the original language of the text) and are relating it to your current culture (not the culture of the time in which it was written).

Again you are applying your current English language understanding to a word translated as "until". I don't suppose that you gave much consideration to the posts above which address the use of "until" in Scripture which could not possibly mean what you think it must mean in relation to Mary.

Well then why doesn't your Bible say "half sibling" or "half brother" when talking about James?

 

I have to agree with Laurenda.

James; It was not until after Jesus's death did James realize and believe who Jesus really was. He later became an important Leader in the church. (Acts 15)

James is first introduced in Matt. 13:55; as with Jose, Simon, and Judas, his other brothers. And in v. 56, it list the reference to sisters. And in v. 55 it refers to Mary as the Mother and her husband the Carpenter. As well as Jesus being the son of the Carpenter.

James is mentioned in: Matthew, Mark, Acts, 1 corinthians, Galations, James, and Jude.

I used the Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible. (KJV)

Sherrie

 

T2U- I'm sorry, are you saying that unless I read the original texts, I couldn't possibly understand God's word? Sorry... I don't buy that arguement.

 

Hi Laurenda,

You wrote, "The Bible clearly states that Jesus had several half brothers and sisters. I never could understand how anyone could perscribe to the theory that Mary remained a virgin for her entire life when the Bible which should be the authority for Christian's clearly says otherwise. James of the Bible is Jesus' most famous half sibling."

I encourage you to read the dialogue between BibleboyII and I wherein we discussed this issue in depth:

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=001363

You may be surprised to find that the issue isn't as simple as you think.

God bless,

Carson

 

Actually, it was not common practice to include brothers unless there was something really special about them.

I told you, 3AM, it will be explained away and twisted, no matter how much evidence to the contrary. You have to remember, their whole faith system rests on this since it is official doctrine. If this is wrong, what else could be wrong that is official doctrine??? So they will zealously defend it with everything they have. I haven't see an alternative explanation to what Joseph "knowing" Mary meant, although I have seen one given a long time back.

I maybe will look at the verses they have thrown out if I get time, but just noting one thing about 2 Sam 6:23. First, it is a physical impossibility for someone to have children after they are dead, so that option is gone. It was not impossible for Joseph to 'know' Mary since they were married. Also, the word translated 'unto' or 'to' can be translated "as far as", so she did not have children as far as or to the day of her death, after which it was impossible for her to have children, so she never had children. However, the termination point for the until in Matt. 1:25 is when Mary brought forth her firstborn, then Joseph 'knew' her. Well, when Jesus was born, did she die? No, we see her throughout His life. Thus, the termination point was satisfied as given in Matt. 1:25, and the action of 'knowing' her took place since the conditions were met and it was possible.

Neal

 

Exactly. And there was only a relatively short period of time in which the Jews used ossuaries in Palestine from what I understand. Given the fact that archaeologists have dated it to the period of time around which James the Lord's brother would have died, then this evidence cannot be dismissed as easily as T2U would suggest.

 

Okay Carson, I read it but am still not convinced. What do the original languages say of Mary's other sons included Joses (Joseph), James, Judas, and Simon. And his sisters that are unnamed (Matthew 13:55-56; Mark 6:3)?

I mean if you wanted to use the arguement that Jesus was created by God without the assistance of Mary's DNA, then I could agree with you. Mary was his mother by birth, but they shared no DNA, Jesus was created before He was put into her womb. And Joseph was his adopted father. So if you want to use this arguement for Joseph, James, Judas, Simon and his sisters as not being gentically linked to him ...then maybe I could agree with that. But to assert that these people may have been cousins? Cousins would mean that Mary and Joseph weren't their parents. Birth, adopted or otherwise...so I think the word translated to brother and sister would be correct in that sense. I also don't ascribe to the thought that Joseph had children with another woman. Now, Your making my brain hurt.

Sorry...I am not a Bible scholar and so discussing this issue with you may be difficult. Just know that I don't shrug off what people say off hand. I know there is always a chance that what I have believed for what feels like forever may be found to be flawed. I'm open to that.

Laurenda

 

To follow up, here's a good article about the implications of the ossuary discovery.

Go to www.ntrmin.org and click on "Roman Catholic Corner" in the left column. Then click on "Mary and the Saints". Then click on this article:
"Inking Outside of Box": What the Ossuary of James Means for the Roman Catholic Doctrine of Mary’s Perpetual Virginity (Eric Svendsen)

Perhaps after reading this, some Catholics will decide to convert to Orthodoxy....Naaahhh!