Turning Mary into an adultress

[neal4christ]

I will have to look at the Hebrews 12 passage a little closer, but glancing at it it appears to talk about the covenant we have come to. It is not the Old Covenant, but the New. We don't come to a physical Jerusalem (i.e. a certain place we have to go to), but we come to God's Jerusalem, in the spiritual sense. It is clear from Rev. 21:2 that the New Jerusalem is in heaven now and is to come down one day. I don't see any connection b/t the church and the New Jerusalem.

Neal

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by Born Again Catholic:
then how do you understand Hebrews 12?

The way the Bible explains it.

Do you think that because the writer said 'you have come' means that the people he was talking to were already there?

Let's look at in context. The passage leads out talking about Moses, and the Holy Mountain that God spoke to him on. He compared that mountain to the one WE will see.

When will we 'have come'?

Let's look:

22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26. Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29. For our God is a consuming fire.

He will remove the things that CAN be shaken so that ALL that will remain is what CANNOT be shaken.

So the question is, are there still things here that can be shaken?

YUP

Then it hasn't come to pass.

This is speaking of the end. When we go to heaven. When Jesus returns.

Look at the mentions here:

'The city of the living God'

Rev 3:12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

'heavenly Jerusalem'

When will we see that?

Rev 21:1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

SOOO, we see the NEW Jerusalem coming down out of Heaven to the NEW Earth.

So BEFORE the New Earth is made, we will GO to the New Jerusalem IN Heaven.

Which is evident by the mention of these things:

innumerable company of angels

Where is there an innumerable company of angels?

Rev 5:11. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

The general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven

At what point will there be a GENERAL assembly of the CHURCH? Is there one here? (hopefully you won't stoop to answer that)

We see the church in heaven. AFTER the GENERAL resurrection.

1 Thess 4:15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

God the Judge of all

When will we SEE God who is the JUDGE of ALL? AT HIS COMING! We will see the judgment of the ungodly. When is that?

There are 3 Phases of the Judgment:

1. The Pre Advent Judgment of the House of God
1 Pet 4:17. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

2. The Judgment seat of Christ, of the wicked, carried out by those who overcame. (the Church)
Rev 20: 4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

When is that? After Jesus returns.

3. The Great White Throne Judgment
Rev 20:11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is after the 1000 years.

the spirits of just men made perfect

WHEN does THAT happen?

1 Cor 15: 51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

AT THE LAST TRUMP.

Hmmmm sounds familiar. OH YEAH! That is what Paul said in 1 Thess 4:15 about Jesus coming back! With the TRUMP of God!

Jesus the mediator of the new covenant

Where is He?

Acts 2: 32. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the Promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

the blood of sprinkling

1 Pet 1: 2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4. To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

So we see that the 'sprinkling of blood', that is the Blood of Jesus, is part of what saves us. It is part of the process.

1. Knowledge of the Father
2. Sanctification of the Spirit UNTO obedience

3. Sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus (to cover our sin)

And what is the result?

1. WE are begotten of God, to a hope by the Resurrection of Jesus
2. TO an inheritance INCORRUPTABLE (getting immortality)
3. THAT is RESERVED in HEAVEN for YOU. (reserved till when?)
4. KEPT by the POWER of God, THROUGH Faith, UNTO Salvation. (but when?)
5. AT THE LAST TIME!!!!!

It is quite clear that the people he was talking to were NOT in the New Jerusalem.

And that folks, is what we call exegesis.

God Bless

 

[CatholicConvert]

Could it be.....

That the Blessed Virgin is the prototype of what each one of us will be in Heaven?

To understand where I am going with this, please read the following well written article by Peter Kreeft, who is a philosopher extraudinare!

IS THERE SEX IN HEAVEN?

Now before you go ballistic on me.....

READ THE ARTICLE!!!

It's not what you think it is, I promise you. I was pleasantly surprized that Kreeft made such a clear explanation of how earthly realities are symbols of heavenly truths which we cannot understand or experience this side of the grave.

I hope this article can open up a discussion of what our marriages on earth, and in Heaven, are to be both symbol and reality of.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

[DanPC]

Neal--no problem. I only asked because you said you were floored. I thought if you read what I sent you may disagree though not quite be floored.

"I see you quote different people, Dan, but I am interested in the Scriptures. It is clear in the verse 3AM pointed out that Joseph 'knew' Mary at some point."

Perhaps Carson could jump in here but I know there are places in Scripture where the word till or until does not mean what we normally associate with it now. Even now until does not necessarily mean what you are saying.
Consider: "Michal the daughter of Saul has no children until the day of her death." 2 Sam 6:23 Can we assume she had children after her death?
Regarding the location of the grave of Moses it was said in Dt 34:6 that no man knows "until this present day." no one has known since that day either.
There are other examples in the Bible of the use of till and until that do not mean what you are asserting.
Mt 1:25 does not prove Mary was not a Virgin after Jesus was born.


I quoted different people, not so much to convince anyone, as to show that what floors some now has been believed by many since early Christianity and also by some of those who were instrumental in the starting of the Protestant movement.

 

[thessalonian]

Neal,
"I am still floored that it is thought by Catholics (is it official dogma?) that Mary remained a virgin." Yes it is official dogma."

Funny but if you go back to the early post apostolic days of the Church when they didn't have email and it was rare that people left the town that the grew up in, when there was no planes, trains, and automobiles, internet or even pony express, worldwide (judging by the writings of the Early Church Fathers) from east to west, north to south over thousands of miles everyone (except I think it was Tertullian) that spoke on this issue said that Mary was perpetually a virgin and every citation says that either the brothers of Jesus were cousins or that they were Joseph's children (non-contradictory possibilities by the way). Now isn't that amazing.I know this is unbelievable so if you would like me to take the time to put together a list of quotes, just ask. Yet today the Johnny come lately Protestants say "oh no this can't be".

Blessings

 

[Abiyah]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
Do you think that the title of the thread reflects innocence?

I see nothing wrong with the title. The title simply
sets up the question to be asked. She did not say
she was an adulterer but prepared to ask if some
make her into an adulterer through their concepts
regarding her.

3AM started this "sex with the Holy Spirit" thing in another thread.

I have not seen a place where she did this, and if
it did happen, I regret that it happened. I read very
few threads, as time is limited.

Amen, Amen, Amen. And my answer was not intended to be offensive. She started the gossip column stuff with her "inquiring minds want to know". Ever heard of the National Inquirer? It's an American Gossip tabloid and that is there slogan and AngelMom knows it.

I know nothing about the tabloids, but I have heard
people make this statement in jest. In no way have
those I know used it as she is blamed for using it
here. I cannot see the thoughts and intents of her
heart; I just do not have that ability.

PS. Abiyah, you assume way to much about me.

8o) I am sorry, but you just simply are not on my
mind. 8o) I was commenting about your post and
about others with whom I lived in Minnesota, and,
admittedly, about others who post here who are
from there. I have simply been amazed lately.

 

[thessalonian]

"I know nothing about the tabloids, but I have heard
people make this statement in jest. In no way have
those I know used it as she is blamed for using it
here. I cannot see the thoughts and intents of her
heart; I just do not have that ability."

Well, when it is your beliefs that are being jested about perhaps you will see things differently. Personally I don't think it is funny. And that is excatly where that phrase comes from, isn't it AngelMom.

 

[Armando]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:

It even says that he didn't 'know' her until her days were completed!

Mat 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

I must say that it is TOTALLY apparent from this verse that they DID indeed have sex, AFTER Jesus was born .

It says UNTIL. (till)

Here is a prime example of another instance of 'until'.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

You see, it is a "once this happens then THIS will happen" sort of wording. The law won't pass until ALL of it is fulfilled, not even one jot. (do you feel the earth under you? Do you see the heaven above?)

God Bless

Now,

2 Sam 6:23 As to Michal daughter of Saul, she had no child till the day of her death

As you say:

I must say that it is TOTALLY apparent from this verse that...Michal HAD other children after her death

1 Tim 4:13 till I come, give heed to the reading, to the exhortation, to the teaching;

again

I must say that it is TOTALLY apparent from this verse that...once Paul came, Timothy NO longer read, exhorted(sp?) or tought

the same apply to:

1 Cor 15,25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet

after this, would He still reign? or that this means that that He will not longer reign once he put all his enemies under his feet?

Lk 1,80 John grew up and became strong in spirit. Then he lived out in the wilderness until he began his public ministry to Israel

where did he lived after he began his public ministry?

Mat 28,20 And behold, *I* am with you all the days, until the completion of the age.

so that this mean He is not going to be with us after the completion of the age


Psalm 110,1 The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit in honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet."

once He humbles his enemies, will He be removed from His right hand and sit of honor?


If "until" is interpreted as "not until that moment then, after that moment the opposite happens", then we have a real challenge with the verses above.

In all honestly I am going to have to disagree with your statement:

"I must say that it is TOTALLY apparent from this verse that...

I think "until" can be also interpreted, based on verses above, that:

Until that moment it did happen or didn't happened but after that moment, we just don't know.

1 Tim 4:13 till I come, give heed to the reading, to the exhortation, to the teaching;

Timothy read, exhorted and taught until Paul came and after as well

2 Sam 6:23 As to Michal daughter of Saul, she had no child till the day of her death

no children before her death no children after her death

Mat 28,20 And behold, *I* am with you all the days, until the completion of the age

He will be with us until the end of times and He will be with us after the end of times

So back to Mat 1,25:

"And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son"

Didn't know her before Jesus was born, didn't know her after

Thanks
Armando

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Well, if this ossuary they discovered in the Middle East is authentic, then the idea of James being the cousin of Jesus probably goes out the window. The ossuary belongs to James the SON (not nephew)of Joseph, the brother of Jesus. This means that: (1) James was Jesus' "step"-brother (Joseph's son, but not Mary's); or (2) James was Jesus' "half"-brother (son of Joseph and Mary). Option #1 would of course be the Protestant view, while Option #2 is held by the Eastern Orthodox (and now, apparently by some Catholics

).

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
Well, if this ossuary they discovered in the Middle East is authentic, then the idea of James being the cousin of Jesus probably goes out the window. The ossuary belongs to James the SON (not nephew)of Joseph, the brother of Jesus. This means that: (1) James was Jesus' "step"-brother (Joseph's son, but not Mary's); or (2) James was Jesus' "half"-brother (son of Joseph and Mary). Option #1 would of course be the Protestant view, while Option #2 is held by the Eastern Orthodox (and now, apparently by some Catholics

).

I heard a commentary on the radio about this.

Calculate the population numbers...

How many in that approximate period would have been named James...

How many James would have had a father named Joseph...

How many James would have had a father named Joseph and a brother named Jesus...

Turns out that, statistically, there could have been a rather large number of people named James with a father named Joseph and a brother named Jesus in that area at that time.

So it would not have necessarily have been the James, Joseph and Jesus that you are thinking of.

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

The Bible clearly states that Jesus had several half brothers and sisters. I never could understand how anyone could perscribe to the theory that Mary remained a virgin for her entire life when the Bible which should be the authority for Christian's clearly says otherwise. James of the Bible is Jesus' most famous half sibling.

Laurenda

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by Laurenda:
The Bible clearly states that Jesus had several half brothers and sisters.

You say "clearly" because you are reading the English (not the original language of the text) and are relating it to your current culture (not the culture of the time in which it was written).

I never could understand how anyone could perscribe to the theory that Mary remained a virgin for her entire life when the Bible which should be the authority for Christian's clearly says otherwise.

Again you are applying your current English language understanding to a word translated as "until". I don't suppose that you gave much consideration to the posts above which address the use of "until" in Scripture which could not possibly mean what you think it must mean in relation to Mary.

James of the Bible is Jesus' most famous half sibling.

Well then why doesn't your Bible say "half sibling" or "half brother" when talking about James?

 

[Sherrie]

I have to agree with Laurenda.

James; It was not until after Jesus's death did James realize and believe who Jesus really was. He later became an important Leader in the church. (Acts 15)

James is first introduced in Matt. 13:55; as with Jose, Simon, and Judas, his other brothers. And in v. 56, it list the reference to sisters. And in v. 55 it refers to Mary as the Mother and her husband the Carpenter. As well as Jesus being the son of the Carpenter.

James is mentioned in: Matthew, Mark, Acts, 1 corinthians, Galations, James, and Jude.

I used the Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible. (KJV)

Sherrie

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

T2U- I'm sorry, are you saying that unless I read the original texts, I couldn't possibly understand God's word? Sorry... I don't buy that arguement.

 

[Carson Weber]

Hi Laurenda,

You wrote, "The Bible clearly states that Jesus had several half brothers and sisters. I never could understand how anyone could perscribe to the theory that Mary remained a virgin for her entire life when the Bible which should be the authority for Christian's clearly says otherwise. James of the Bible is Jesus' most famous half sibling."

I encourage you to read the dialogue between BibleboyII and I wherein we discussed this issue in depth:

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=001363

You may be surprised to find that the issue isn't as simple as you think.

God bless,

Carson

 

[neal4christ]

Turns out that, statistically, there could have been a rather large number of people named James with a father named Joseph and a brother named Jesus in that area at that time.

So it would not have necessarily have been the James, Joseph and Jesus that you are thinking of.

Actually, it was not common practice to include brothers unless there was something really special about them.

I told you, 3AM, it will be explained away and twisted, no matter how much evidence to the contrary. You have to remember, their whole faith system rests on this since it is official doctrine. If this is wrong, what else could be wrong that is official doctrine??? So they will zealously defend it with everything they have. I haven't see an alternative explanation to what Joseph "knowing" Mary meant, although I have seen one given a long time back.

I maybe will look at the verses they have thrown out if I get time, but just noting one thing about 2 Sam 6:23. First, it is a physical impossibility for someone to have children after they are dead, so that option is gone. It was not impossible for Joseph to 'know' Mary since they were married. Also, the word translated 'unto' or 'to' can be translated "as far as", so she did not have children as far as or to the day of her death, after which it was impossible for her to have children, so she never had children. However, the termination point for the until in Matt. 1:25 is when Mary brought forth her firstborn, then Joseph 'knew' her. Well, when Jesus was born, did she die? No, we see her throughout His life. Thus, the termination point was satisfied as given in Matt. 1:25, and the action of 'knowing' her took place since the conditions were met and it was possible.

Neal

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by neal4christ:
Actually, it was not common practice to include brothers unless there was something really special about them.

Exactly. And there was only a relatively short period of time in which the Jews used ossuaries in Palestine from what I understand. Given the fact that archaeologists have dated it to the period of time around which James the Lord's brother would have died, then this evidence cannot be dismissed as easily as T2U would suggest.

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Okay Carson, I read it but am still not convinced. What do the original languages say of Mary's other sons included Joses (Joseph), James, Judas, and Simon. And his sisters that are unnamed (Matthew 13:55-56; Mark 6:3)?

I mean if you wanted to use the arguement that Jesus was created by God without the assistance of Mary's DNA, then I could agree with you. Mary was his mother by birth, but they shared no DNA, Jesus was created before He was put into her womb. And Joseph was his adopted father. So if you want to use this arguement for Joseph, James, Judas, Simon and his sisters as not being gentically linked to him ...then maybe I could agree with that. But to assert that these people may have been cousins? Cousins would mean that Mary and Joseph weren't their parents. Birth, adopted or otherwise...so I think the word translated to brother and sister would be correct in that sense. I also don't ascribe to the thought that Joseph had children with another woman. Now, Your making my brain hurt.

Sorry...I am not a Bible scholar and so discussing this issue with you may be difficult. Just know that I don't shrug off what people say off hand. I know there is always a chance that what I have believed for what feels like forever may be found to be flawed. I'm open to that.

Laurenda

 

[Doubting Thomas]

To follow up, here's a good article about the implications of the ossuary discovery.

Go to www.ntrmin.org and click on "Roman Catholic Corner" in the left column. Then click on "Mary and the Saints". Then click on this article:
"Inking Outside of Box": What the Ossuary of James Means for the Roman Catholic Doctrine of Mary’s Perpetual Virginity (Eric Svendsen)

Perhaps after reading this, some Catholics will decide to convert to Orthodoxy....Naaahhh!

 

[3AngelsMom]

Armando,

I can see your logic in thinking that but those verses cannot be compared to the Matt verse because they don't say 'not until'. They just say 'until'. We need to look at verses where it says 'not until' to know the meaning.

The barren girl, cannot compare either because the object of the completion of 'until' was her death. That is a difinitive end, which leaves no time for possible fulfilment.

So let's look at some verses that DO compare. One's that say 'not until'.

Gen 24: 33. And there was set meat before him to eat: but he said, I will not eat, until I have told mine errand. And he said, Speak on.

He then proceeded to tell them what happened..... and then....

54. And they did eat and drink, he and the men that were with him, and tarried all night; and they rose up in the morning, and he said, Send me away unto my master.

That's ONE.

Gen 29:8. And they said, We cannot, until all the flocks be gathered together, and till they roll the stone from the well's mouth; then we water the sheep.

They couldn't water the sheep until someone moved the stone. So what happened?

10. And it came to pass, when Jacob saw Rachel the daughter of Laban his mother's brother, and the sheep of Laban his mother's brother, that Jacob went near, and rolled the stone from the well's mouth, and watered the flock of Laban his mother's brother.

The stone got rolled away, and the sheep got watered.

That's TWO.

Num 12:
15. And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days: and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in again.

They had to put Miriam out of the camp, because she was sick, and they didn't leave until the time was completed. So when it was completed what did they do?

16. And afterward the people removed from Hazeroth, and pitched in the wilderness of Paran.

That's THREE.

Josh 7:13. Up, sanctify the people, and say, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow: for thus saith the Lord God of Israel, There is an accursed thing in the midst of thee, O Israel: thou canst not stand before thine enemies, until ye take away the accursed thing from among you.

They couln't go to war UNTIL they found the sin among them. SO what happened?

24. And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor.
25. And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the Lord shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.
26. And they raised over him a great heap of stones unto this day. So the Lord turned from the fierceness of his anger. Wherefore the name of that place was called, The valley of Achor, unto this day.

So after they found the sin in the camp, did they go back to war? YUP.

Joshua 8:1 And the Lord said unto Joshua, Fear not, neither be thou dismayed: take all the people of war with thee, and arise, go up to Ai: see, I have given into thy hand the king of Ai, and his people, and his city, and his land:

That's FOUR.

Josh 8:26 For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.

He didn't stop fighting until ALL the people of Ai were utterly destroyed. So what happened?

28. And Joshua burnt Ai, and made it an heap for ever, even a desolation unto this day.

That's FIVE.

Ruth 3: 3. Wash thyself therefore, and anoint thee, and put thy raiment upon thee, and get thee down to the floor: but make not thyself known unto the man, until he shall have done eating and drinking.

Such a beautiful story. What did she do?

7. And when Boaz had eaten and drunk, and his heart was merry, he went to lie down at the end of the heap of corn: and she came softly, and uncovered his feet, and laid her down.

That's SIX.

John 13:38. Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

So what happened after he denied Him 3 times?

Do I even need to show the verse? No. The cock crowed.

That's SEVEN.

There are so many more places where 'not until' means that 'once this, then that'.

That was only seven of them.

Matt 1:24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25. And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

So what happened? You can ignore this if you want, but the Bible tells us what happened. He knew her once Jesus was born. If he didn't know her at all, it wouldn't have said this.

So, what did happen? We see in the next verse the answer.

Matthew 2:1. Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,

Jesus was born. He knew her NOT UNTIL she gave birth to Jesus. He knew her AFTER she gave birth to Jesus.

God Bless