Turning Mary into an adultress

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by LaRae:
[QB]
Got news for you....Christ established the Church before he left the earth. The Catholic Church. When you attack the Catholic Church you are attacking Christ.

Yes, and no. The Church that He established is added to daily through faith in Jesus Christ, not faith in the CC. And UH, NO I am NOT attacking Christ by pointing out the ERROR in the Catholic doctrine. Christ set the ultimate example when He rebuked the Church in Israel for worshipping idols. The Bible says that when you see a brother in error and you tell him, that his conversion saves his soul from death, and covers a multitude of sins. That is my intention.

You seem to have ignored my question about why you use the bible if you think the whore in Revelation is the Catholic Church.

I did. It isn't even a ligitimate question. The Bible is from God, not the CC. Or are you going to admit here and now that you KNOW they changed the Word of God?

Still waiting for you to cite where Revelation says the Catholic Church is the whore. Not your interpertation of Revelation mind you.

It says Rome is the beast, and the woman is a whore that sits on it. Where is the Catholic Church's headquarters? My interpretation is that I READ it. It isn't a difficult thing to understand.

I know persecution when I see it. When it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck..it isn't a chicken.

So if you know it when you see it, would killing MANY people in the name of Christ, because they wouldn't bow to the throne persecution? How about calling someone ananthema? What about MAKING people stop keeping the Holy Sabbath and instead worship on the pagan day of the sun?

I know a whore when I see one. If it looks like a whore, and it sounds like a whore, then it isn't a virgin.

 

[thessalonian]

"This is really off topic, but since you pointed that out, I will respond. It says that She SITS on seven Mountains. The Mountains are ROME. She is 'sit'uated IN Rome.

The ROMAN Catholic Church is IN the Vatican City IN Rome (which IS a city also)."

Well then Rome would be an 8 hilled city since Vatican City, which sits accross the Tiber from Rome is on it's own hill which is not a part of the seven hills of Rome. I do think that the Book of R. is quite accurate in it's counting of the hills, don't you? So, no, you are wrong.

 

[3AngelsMom]

Where did the ROMAN Catholic Church control the world from 538 to 1798 AD?

ROME.

Where does she control the CC from now?

ROME.

Where is St Peters Square?

Rome.

I am really suprised that you would take this line of argument!

I have NEVER heard anyone try to say that the Vatican is NOT in Rome.

That is kind of rediculous don't you think?

ROMAN Catholic Church.....

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
Well then Rome would be an 8 hilled city since Vatican City, which sits accross the Tiber from Rome is on it's own hill which is not a part of the seven hills of Rome. I do think that the Book of R. is quite accurate in it's counting of the hills, don't you? So, no, you are wrong.

11. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

hmmmm you may be onto something.

 

[thessalonian]

"I am really suprised that you would take this line of argument!

I have NEVER heard anyone try to say that the Vatican is NOT in Rome.

That is kind of rediculous don't you think?"

"Technically, Vatican City is a city-state unto itself, not part of Rome nor of Italy. "

http://www.tompgalvin.com/va/0_va.htm

"Because the Holy See (Vatican) is a separate State and not part of Italy"

http://www.usembassy.it/cons/acs/marriage.htm

"We had to rush because we were scheduled to visit the Vatican City, (home of the Pope and not considered part of Rome), and the Sistine Chapel."

http://www.mouthshut.com/readreview/21099-1.html

Not really.

 

[LaRae]

***quoting of Entire post removed to save space**
Gee you sure do overlook that whole business about the Ark of the Covenant having statues....hmmm and what about that temple where God commanded they put statues in it?

Idols worship...yep we are in agreement...we are not to worship idols.

Hmmmm you still ignore the fact that the Bible was organized and assembled by the Catholic Church. If you feel the Catholic Church is the Whore then I fail to see how you can have any confidence in the Bible. Stop avoiding the question.

Well that beast thing is a problem...for you anyway. As someone else has already pointed out you are working with faulty thought process. Yes you read, however the Church down the road reads it differently....and you are no different than they are...just determining for yourself what it means.

Yes there have been many atrocities done in the name of Christ, by many individuals and various Churches. I really don't see why you have a problem with name calling....you seem to do it pretty well so why object if someone else does?

As far as the Sabbath goes...again that's your interpertation...the Catholic Church has Mass each day of the week every day of the year.

By the way your comment to someone else about the Church being called the Roman Catholic Church....well that's not the correct title of the Church. The Church is the CATHOLIC CHURCH. There are differnt rites in the Church. The Latin rite is also referred to as the Roman rite. Then you have other various rites (Eastern etc).

You can continue to try and twist scripture and make sqare pegs fit into round holes....like I said you have free will.

However keep in mind that one day we will all give an accounting of what we have done or what we have failed to do.


LaRae

[ March 05, 2003, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by LaRae:
[QB] Gee you sure do overlook that whole business about the Ark of the Covenant having statues....hmmm and what about that temple where God commanded they put statues in it?

Where have I overlooked that?

Idols worship...yep we are in agreement...we are not to worship idols.

That's nice. What are you talking about?

Hmmmm you still ignore the fact that the Bible was organized and assembled by the Catholic Church. If you feel the Catholic Church is the Whore then I fail to see how you can have any confidence in the Bible. Stop avoiding the question.

God's Word is Eternal. The Catholic Church didn't preserve it, God did. Did the Catholic Church DO something to the Bible that I should be worried about?

Well that beast thing is a problem...for you anyway. As someone else has already pointed out you are working with faulty thought process. Yes you read, however the Church down the road reads it differently....and you are no different than they are...just determining for yourself what it means.

Actually there is a WHOLE lot more than just ME thinking this. This idea is not new. It was discovered just AFTER the dark ages, go figure.

Yes there have been many atrocities done in the name of Christ, by many individuals and various Churches.

The RCC especially

I really don't see why you have a problem with name calling....you seem to do it pretty well so why object if someone else does?

That's funny. Are we gonna play I'm rubber and you're glue now?

As far as the Sabbath goes...again that's your interpertation

No it is history. The CC changed the day.

the Catholic Church has Mass each day of the week every day of the year.

And they keep Sunday holy. It is sacred. Read your Chatichism.

By the way your comment to someone else about the Church being called the Roman Catholic Church....well that's not the correct title of the Church.

Tell that to the Pope.

The Church is the CATHOLIC CHURCH. There are differnt rites in the Church. The Latin rite is also referred to as the Roman rite. Then you have other various rites (Eastern etc).

So then your denomination of Catholic is different from the Roman denomination of Catholic? Or do you prefer sect? Rite is a nice way of covering up the division in the CC. It isn't doing a very good job though, because we all see that there is divisions among you.

You can continue to try and twist scripture and make sqare pegs fit into round holes....like I said you have free will.

Whatever.

The Bible says what it says. You don't like it. I don't blame you. The only answer though is to get out of the church that is the whore. You can't change the Bible, just because you find it offensive.

However keep in mind that one day we will all give an accounting of what we have done or what we have failed to do.

I keep that in mind with every breath I breathe. You should try that the next time you bow a knee to pray to someone other than God.

 

[3AngelsMom]

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/holysee_vaticancity_sm97.gif

Notice WHERE that is.

What is on each side.

ROME.

ITALY.

Just because the governmental bodies TODAY have declared the Vatican as independent from Rome, does not mean that she always has been.

When John wrote the Revelation The power's that be were ROME. The woman that would sit on it, SAT down on ROME.

And there she sits.

edited to remove oversized image. Please see our posting rules.

[ March 05, 2003, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

[LaRae]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LaRae:
[QB] Gee you sure do overlook that whole business about the Ark of the Covenant having statues....hmmm and what about that temple where God commanded they put statues in it?

Where have I overlooked that?

Idols worship...yep we are in agreement...we are not to worship idols.

That's nice. What are you talking about?

Hmmmm you still ignore the fact that the Bible was organized and assembled by the Catholic Church. If you feel the Catholic Church is the Whore then I fail to see how you can have any confidence in the Bible. Stop avoiding the question.

God's Word is Eternal. The Catholic Church didn't preserve it, God did. Did the Catholic Church DO something to the Bible that I should be worried about?

Well that beast thing is a problem...for you anyway. As someone else has already pointed out you are working with faulty thought process. Yes you read, however the Church down the road reads it differently....and you are no different than they are...just determining for yourself what it means.

Actually there is a WHOLE lot more than just ME thinking this. This idea is not new. It was discovered just AFTER the dark ages, go figure.

Yes there have been many atrocities done in the name of Christ, by many individuals and various Churches.

The RCC especially

I really don't see why you have a problem with name calling....you seem to do it pretty well so why object if someone else does?

That's funny. Are we gonna play I'm rubber and you're glue now?

As far as the Sabbath goes...again that's your interpertation

No it is history. The CC changed the day.

the Catholic Church has Mass each day of the week every day of the year.

And they keep Sunday holy. It is sacred. Read your Chatichism.

By the way your comment to someone else about the Church being called the Roman Catholic Church....well that's not the correct title of the Church.

Tell that to the Pope.

The Church is the CATHOLIC CHURCH. There are differnt rites in the Church. The Latin rite is also referred to as the Roman rite. Then you have other various rites (Eastern etc).

So then your denomination of Catholic is different from the Roman denomination of Catholic? Or do you prefer sect? Rite is a nice way of covering up the division in the CC. It isn't doing a very good job though, because we all see that there is divisions among you.

You can continue to try and twist scripture and make sqare pegs fit into round holes....like I said you have free will.

Whatever.

The Bible says what it says. You don't like it. I don't blame you. The only answer though is to get out of the church that is the whore. You can't change the Bible, just because you find it offensive.

However keep in mind that one day we will all give an accounting of what we have done or what we have failed to do.

I keep that in mind with every breath I breathe. You should try that the next time you bow a knee to pray to someone other than God. </font>[/QUOTE]I find it interesting that you condem the Catholic Church yet are willing to accept a Bible that the Catholic Church assembled and organized, added in paragraphs, commas, periods etc. We all know how that can change the meaning of something. Like I said...don't see how you can accept the Bible as true or accurate when the Whore has had a hand in it.

Hmmm I think you might want to go read a more complete version of history. You seem to be misinformed about at least some historical details surrounding the inquisistion and reformation.

No I stopped the sticks and stones thing in grade school....I'm merely pointing out that you were offended as what others said to you but don't have a problem offeding others in an equal manner.

Actually it's a Catechism and I am quite familiar with the position on the Sabbath Day.

There is only one Catholic Church. There are different rites. They all uphold the same core doctrine. So your division theory won't work here. It's quite easy to read up on this at EWTN, explains things quite well. I personally am a Latin (ie Roman) rite Catholic.

The Pope is the Bishop of Rome. He is also a Latin (ie Roman) rite Catholic.

I don't find the Bible to be offensive at all. I don't find the Catholic Church to be offensive. Afterall it IS Christ's Church.

The Church down the road will agree with your opinion of "it says what it says". I'm willing to bet they will use your own arguments against you....not sure what you do then.

I do find you to be offensive in how you are conducting yourself and the lack of charity you show, however as I've already said...you seem to feel justified in being offensive.

LaRae

 

[Carson Weber]

Notice WHERE that is.
What is on each side.
ROME.
ITALY.

Hey! I've been there! St. Peter's Basilica is really absolutely gorgeous, and the Christian artwork in the Vatican Museums is out of this world (it's almost as good as the Gelati).

http://www.boerne.com/temp/stpeter.jpg

Here's a list of popes all the way back to St. Peter.. this is a picture I took in St. Peter's. You can also visit St. Peter's tomb while you're there, and you can visit the room in the catacombs (I think it was the San Callisto catacombs - only about 6 are open to the public) where the first 35-40 bishops of Rome were buried by the early Christians.

When the tour guide speaks about how the early Christians celebrated Mass "over here" and "right over there", you should see the faces of the American Protestants who don't have a clue as to the history of the Christian Church.

edited to remove oversized image

[ March 05, 2003, 12:50 AM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

[3AngelsMom]

LaRae,

How obscure can you get?

Lack of Charity?

Who is it that I am not loving here?

Should I just kiss everyone's neck and leave you in your ignorance and blasphemous ways?

SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE.

I love you enough not to mince words.

You could walk out the door and die tomorrow, so I want to tell you as much as I can at once.

I think I have made it quite clear that the 'church down the road' in the US is most likely another 'Apostate' church, so what they read and see is based on preconceived ideals and doctrines of 'learned men' from antiquity.

Has no impact on how the Holy Spirit leads my understanding of the Bible.

Also, you don't have to quote me, if you aren't going to go point by point, it uses up bandwidth, and the mods don't like it!

God Bless

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
In order for Mary to be the 'spouse' of the Holy Spirit, the 'Trinity' must be broken up to form 3 separate Gods.

She cannot be married to her own Son.

Are you saying that the Son and the Holy spirit are the same?

Thess may have well be correct in his earlier post when he said that Seventh Day Adventists do not hold a traditional Christian understanding of the Trinity.

[ March 04, 2003, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

[thessalonian]

"SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN LOVE.

I love you enough not to mince words."

No, it is just the same old loaf of fruitcake ideas being passed around that have been around since (and only since) the reformation with no historical basis and only a convaluted eisegis of the Bible to make it true in the minds of those who have been decieved by satan. This doctrine of WOB = Catholic Church wreaks of pride so bad it is not even funny. And those who partake of it wallow in it. It would be exactly like satan to turn God's holy word around on his Church. As I have said before, the SDA Gospel is bash the Catholic Church until they come around.

[ March 04, 2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 3AngelsMom:
In order for Mary to be the 'spouse' of the Holy Spirit, the 'Trinity' must be broken up to form 3 separate Gods.

She cannot be married to her own Son.

Are you saying that the Son and the Holy spirit are the same?

Thess may have well be correct in his earlier post when he said that Seventh Day Adventists do not hold a traditional Christian understanding of the Trinity. </font>[/QUOTE]I do not hold the same trinity view that the CC does, no.

I don't think it is possible for the Holy Spirit to do something that the other 2 persons of the Godhead cannot.

They are ONE. If the Holy Spirit is married to Mary then so is the Father and the Son, which would be insest, therefore making it impossible.

God Bless

 

[3AngelsMom]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
[QB] No, it is just the same old loaf of fruitcake ideas being passed around that have been around since (and only since) the reformation with no historical basis and only a convaluted eisegis of the Bible to make it true in the minds of those who have been decieved by satan.

So it is satan that wants the people of God to obey God? That doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. Do you honestly believe that through Bible study and prayer, and seeking God, that I have been led by SATAN to truth? That too would make no sense. I may not have history in my corner but I have the Bible. Your doctrines are largely historical and traditional. ALL of mine are Biblical. It is not disheartening to me to know that the Truth of the Bible was obscured through the Dark Ages and resurfaced afterwards. I see it as prophetic fulfillment, and fell blessed that God saw me worthy of receiving it.

This doctrine of WOB = Catholic Church wreaks of pride so bad it is not even funny.

How does it wreak of pride? My feelings toward Catholics is sympathy and concern. I do not feel better than you, I have been where you are. I feel deep seated concern for your well being, and salvation. You are mistaken.

And those who partake of it wallow in it. It would be exactly like satan to turn God's holy word around on his Church.

Now THAT I will agree with. It is JUST like Satan to take a church that was pure and turn it into what it is today. God's Holy Word has been around long before the CC was. It was before the CC was organized that John was shown this vision. John said this power is HERE NOW. There was only one power then. Rome.

As I have said before, the SDA Gospel is bash the Catholic Church until they come around.

You are sadly mistaken. The only Gospel that we have is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
It is our intention to preach the Everlasting Gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes the Three Angels Messages in Rev. To ALL. Not just Catholics. You are special, in that you are directly IN the Beast's power. It is of UTMOST importance that YOU and other Catholics KNOW what you are involved in.

There will come a day when the Beast and the Whore stand hand in hand with the other Apostate peoples of this world 'for one hour' and they will POUR out their wrath on those who do not bow.

If you KNOW who to be looking at when this time comes you will not bow, and will not take upon yourself by choice the Mark of the Beast.

I am sorry if you find it offensive that the church you have chosen, just so happens to be the church that went pear shaped, but it is so, and I cannot change it anymore than you can.

God Bless you in your season of Lent.

I pray that God will reveal TRUTH to you in your time of meditation and devotion.

God Bless

 

[thessalonian]

"So it is satan that wants the people of God to obey God? That doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. Do you honestly believe that through Bible study and prayer, and seeking God, that I have been led by SATAN to truth?"

Nope, I don't, think you have been led to the Truth that is.

 

[rsr]

I honestly can say I have not seen a more unedifying discussion, unless it was in the translations forum.

 

[3AngelsMom]

I agree.

I cannot seem to calm him down.

It is hopeless it seems.

Hopefully when 'fat tuesday' is over, and he has gone into Lent, he will have time to reflect on his attitude and come back a different person.

Anyhow, can we get back to the topic at hand?

MARY.

God Bless

 

[Carson Weber]

MARY.

Makes
All
Remember
Yahweh

 

[rsr]

There is no topic at hand.

This is a gulf that cannot be bridged. To Protestants, it is idolotry.

To Catholics it is an insult upon Mary, the mother of God.

Why beat a dead horse?