Lol, for the third time, I was agreeing with @Judith:
I agree with her - "two things may seem contradictory from man's perspective, but from God's they both can be true."
There is no contradiction here, both are true.
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Two contradictory teachings.
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Lol, for the third time, I was agreeing with @Judith:
I agree with her - "two things may seem contradictory from man's perspective, but from God's they both can be true."
There is no contradiction here, both are true.
Do you agree that God renders eternal life to those that are patient in well-doing?
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2
Baptizo
Member
I believe God renders eternal life to those who believe and trust in Jesus Christ to save them, not verses taken out of context to support a works based salvation.
Again, faith is nowhere to be found in the context. God will render to every man according to his works. I've never understood the hostility this gives rise to among evangelicals when attempting to discuss it. It's not about a works-based salvation, it's about a works-based judgement. There's not a single passage of scripture that even mentions our faith at the judgement, it's all about works. Why do you think that is?
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Baptizo
Member
Sure there is.
Matthew 7:21-23 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
John 6:40 - And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
What was their big mistake? They were trusting in what they did rather than what Christ did. They had no faith at all.
As far as my “hostility and aversion to works”, I have stated before that I believe that works result from conversion but are not the cause of conversion.
And yes, Christians will be rewarded or not at the judgement seat based on their works but will remain secure in their salvation.
1 Corinthians 3:14-15 - If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
When you go to God, faith is the way you go to him. My guess would be that in a public judgment, however that will appear, others can't "see" faith. They will be able to somehow witness conduct. The chief way you examine your own self is by your works or behavior.
The Catholics taught that there was a justification that came though baptism and then a second justification that came out of the grace infused at baptism. Owen said no, but was one who said that we are justified by a faith that is never alone. And he meant it, as you see from his other writings. Baxter, at least for a while, sort of went along with the Catholics in that there was some works in justification, and Edwards even was accused of having justification a little off.
Your example of those scriptures that seem at first contradictory is a good one.
Neither one of these pertain to the final judgement. And the 'kingdom of heaven' is here on earth, not heaven above, and Matthew 7:15-23 pertains to the false prophets that caused so much confusion during the last days of the Sinai Covenant. "By their fruits [works] ye shall know them". 'The Prophet' is actually prophesying as Paul was in Acts of the Apostles 20:29-31.
The Bema is a place of judgment {Matthew 27:19; 2 Corinthians 5:10], not a dispensing of awards/rewards as in a sporting event, and 1 Corinthians 3:4-15 pertains to the works of teachers, in this temporal realm.
Works/deeds are the very definer of the just and the unjust:
15 having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection both of the just and unjust. Acts 24
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. Jn 5
37818
Well-Known Member
Not according to our Lord.
John 18:36, Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Baptizo
Member
Romans 1:17 - For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
4 Lo, a presumptuous one! Not upright is his soul within him, And the righteous by his stedfastness liveth. Hab 2
Compare with:
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2
Compare with:
18 But say may some one, Thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith out of thy works, and I will shew thee out of my works my faith: Ja 2
Well, of course!:
20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you. Lu 17
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14
Baptizo
Member
Again, taken out of context. Romans 2:7 is talking about what a Jew who remains under the law. By patience in well-doing they might expect to be given eternal life but in the end they will find out that they will not get it. The only way for them is through faith.
IMO, it demonstrates an extreme prejudice to do this sort of violence and twisting to the scriptures, and you are missing the gist of "in the spirit not in the letter", two totally different covenants. It's EVERY MAN, Jew and Gentile, circumcision and uncircumcision, that this pertains to:
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.
17 But if thou bearest the name of a Jew, and restest upon the law, and gloriest in God,
18 and knowest his will, and approvest the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law,
19 and art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them that are in darkness,
20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having in the law the form of knowledge and of the truth;
21 thou therefore that teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou rob temples?
23 thou who gloriest in the law, through thy transgression of the law dishonorest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you, even as it is written.
25 For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision.
26 If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
27 and shall not the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who with the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision?
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Baptizo
Member
Paul is speaking specifically to the Jews through verse 7 and then shifts the discussion to both Jews and Gentiles.
I don’t know how to explain it any better than I already have to help you see this.
2 Timothy 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
So, 'every man' in verse 7 means only the Jews? But 'every soul of man' in v 9 and 'every man' in v 10 means Jew and Gentile?
What about the Gentiles (vv 13-14) who are designated as 'doers of the law', are they really Jews or Jews and Gentiles? I'd like to understand the madness to your method.
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I suspect you are a Dispy, they chop the scripture up and destroy its continuity just as you are doing now.
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Baptizo
Member
Pay attention to where the break is
Romans 2:8 - But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath
And I believe there are still unfulfilled promises to the nation of Israel, so if that makes me a “dipsy” then use whatever term you’d like.
There's no break there, only continuity:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing (circumcised hearts with the law written upon it, vv 15 & 29) seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious (hard and impenitent hearts, v 5), and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
Every man, every soul of man, Jew and Gentile, good and bad hearts.
43 So Jehovah gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And Jehovah gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; Jehovah delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not aught of any good thing which Jehovah had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. Josh 21
And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which Jehovah your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, not one thing hath failed thereof. Josh 23:14
Blessed be Jehovah, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by Moses his servant. 1 Ki 8:56
For how many soever be the promises of God, in him is the yea: wherefore also through him is the Amen, unto the glory of God through us. 2 Cor 1:20
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Gen 15:18 On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates;
25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, that he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.
26 And he ruled over all the kings from the River even unto the land of the Philistines, and to the border of Egypt. 2 Chron 9
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Baptizo
Member
Romans 2:1 - Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Really? So the Gentiles would be judging other Gentiles or Jews for what reason? The Jews could only be the group here in a position to judge the Gentiles because they prided themselves in the law.
Romans 11:26 - And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
Has this happened yet?