Two Disparate Rule Books

[Protestant]

The Next Night……………

Father (tucking his 10-year-old daughter into bed): Sleep tight, my precious child. And always remember, Jesus loves you.

Daughter: I know, daddy. Jesus loves all children.

Father: That’s right.

Daughter: Daddy?

Father: Yes, my child.

Daughter: Does Jesus love the Amalekite children?

Father: Of course, He does. He loves all children.

Daughter: Does Jesus love the Hittite, Amorite, Canaanite, Perizzite, Hivite and Jebusite children as well?

Father: Yes, my dear. I said He loves all children. ‘All’ means exactly that….no one is excluded.

Daughter: Does Jesus love the children of Sodom and Gomorrah?

Father: Every last one. Why do you ask all these questions?

Daughter: My friend, Jimmy, showed me in the Bible where God commands the Israelites to kill every Amalekite, even children and infants (1 Samuel 15:3).

He then showed me where God commands the Israelites to kill every living, breathing Hittite, Amorite, Canaanite, etc. That would include children and infants (Deuteronomy 20:16).

He then showed me where God destroyed every living thing in Sodom and Gomorrah, sparing no child or infant (Genesis 19:24-25).

(Suddenly the little girl bursts into tears.)

Father: What’s wrong, child?

Daughter: Daddy, please pray for me.

Father: Of course! What would like me to pray?

Daughter: Please pray God not to love me as much as He loved those millions of children and infants!

 

[InTheLight]

The Next Night……………

Father (tucking his 10-year-old daughter into bed): Sleep tight, my precious child. And always remember, Jesus loves you.

Daughter: I know, daddy. Jesus loves all children.

Father: That’s right.

Daughter: Daddy?

Father: Yes, my child.

Daughter: Does Jesus love the Amalekite children?

Father: Of course, He does. He loves all children.

Daughter: Does Jesus love the Hittite, Amorite, Canaanite, Perizzite, Hivite and Jebusite children as well?

Father: Yes, my dear. I said He loves all children. ‘All’ means exactly that….no one is excluded.

Daughter: Does Jesus love the children of Sodom and Gomorrah?

Father: Every last one. Why do you ask all these questions?

Daughter: My friend, Jimmy, showed me in the Bible where God commands the Israelites to kill every Amalekite, even children and infants (1 Samuel 15:3).

He then showed me where God commands the Israelites to kill every living, breathing Hittite, Amorite, Canaanite, etc. That would include children and infants (Deuteronomy 20:16).

He then showed me where God destroyed every living thing in Sodom and Gomorrah, sparing no child or infant (Genesis 19:24-25).

(Suddenly the little girl bursts into tears.)

Father: What’s wrong, child?

Daughter: Daddy, please pray for me.

Father: Of course! What would like me to pray?

Daughter: Please pray God not to love me as much as He loved those millions of children and infants!

Where is 1689Dave when you want him to point out this was in the Old Covenant?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

 

[Dave G]

" For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." ( Malachi 3:6 )

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." ( Hebrews 13:8 )

The God of the Bible did not change in His affections, His love towards the righteous and His hatred of the wicked, at any point in our long history.
The only thing that has changed is His covenant of Law through Israel, to a covenant of grace through Jesus Christ our Lord which extends to saved Jews and Gentiles alike.


His holiness is the same, His anger towards unrighteousness as hot, and when the fullness of the Gentiles is come in, the approaching Tribulation and second coming will prove it.

" and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. " ( 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 )

 

[Benjamin]

Where is 1689Dave when you want him to point out this was in the Old Covenant?

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL

I pity the father who can’t support the divine attribute of God’s being Only Good and maintain that He is a God of Love against the arguments often shared with Atheists which use the OT to insist that God is a murderous tyrant and creator of evil. A simple lesson in Progressive Revelation and the purposes and righteous judgment of God explains that His true and immeasurable love for His creation was behind it as it was also demonstrated in His great love of allowing His Own Son to be sacrificed for the good to prevail over evil and in LOVE to provide and insure the way of salvation for His fallen creatures.

Sad to see a Christian give in to such arguments that the devil will be sure that every child will hear to try to shake their faith that God is Love.

 

[Dave G]

" And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." ( Matthew 19:17 )

" He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." ( John 3:36 )

Present-tense.
Those who never believe show that God does not love them...His wrath abides ( rests ) upon them.

" For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them." ( Romans 1:18-19 )


" [What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" ( Romans 9:22-24 )

"Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish [from] the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed [are] all they that put their trust in him." ( Psalms 2:10-12 )

God is good, and He's the only one.
But are you absolutely sure that God loves everyone?

Wrath is a very strong term...reserved for those whom God does not love.



He's not the sugar-sappy god that many today claim that He is.
He's very much to be feared and respected.

"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." ( James 2:19 )

"This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in [both] which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 that ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. " ( 2 Peter 3:1-7 )

His anger has been put on hold, dear reader...try not to let it make you complacent.
Even so, there are disasters, earthquakes and pestilences all over the planet, and the day is fast approaching.


May God bless you with vigilance in the face of the Lord's coming again.

 

[Benjamin]

Do you wish to see God’s love? Look at the Cross.

Do you wish to see God’s wrath? Look at the Cross.

God’s wrath does not void His Love.

Even a child can understand this...

 

[Dave G]

God's love does not void His wrath, either.

" But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. " ( Romans 5:8-9 )


His wrath is very much to be feared.
The only thing between a believer and God's wrath, is the blood of His dear Son.

" For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." ( 1 Thessalonians 5:9 )

I would hazard to guess that even a child could understand that, as well.
I did, and I was 12 years old when I believed on Him.

He didn't "love me into the kingdom"...He scared me with the truth of His word.
To this day it still makes me sit up and take notice, every time I hear it preached, and every time I read it.



His grace to you.

 

[Benjamin]

Too much fear of God’s wrath, or the wrong kind of “fear”, might demonstrate one’s lack of faith in who their Father truly is, or a poor relationship that does not understand how great His Love is, but I find the later troublesome for anyone in that relationship who truly knows Him as their merciful and loving Father full of grace. Although, it is understandable that a milk sucking believer, seeing their inescapable bondage to the knowing of the truth, might naturally have a great fear of the judgment of All Mighty God. I would tell a true believer of a growing process to get to know Him for who He is, Love, and to know the Greatness of that Love:

John 14:26

(26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

…And to take comfort and remember these instructions He gives us as the child of a loving Father:

Rom 8:15

(15) For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Once adopted into the family of God a child naturally cries out in conviction of his sins to his Father to which he understands is Holy and becomes frightfully aware that He knows all your various circumstances, but in the confidence of knowing one is truly loved as a son by a wise Father whose guidance and love is immeasurable for His child one can take comfort and find peace from that fear.

I would tell an unbeliever despite God’s love for all His creatures that His wrath on the child of the Devil is sure and exceedingly dreadful without and unless you receive the gift of His grace which comes through belief in the love of the truth in His sacrifice of His Son whom He gave in love to provide the way of adoption and to pay the price for your sins as a son through Him.

 

[Dave G]

I would tell a true believer of a growing process to get to know Him for who He is, Love:

Agreed, and believe it or not, I actually agree with your entire post above, right up until this point:

I would tell an unbeliever despite God’s love for all His creatures that His wrath on the child of the Devil is sure and exceedingly dreadful without and unless you receive the gift of His grace which comes through belief in the love of the truth in His sacrifice of His Son whom He gave in love to provide the way of adoption and pay the price for your sins.

I would not tell an unbeliever anything about God's love, except maybe to quote John 3:16 verbatim, and let the word of God do the work.
Yes, I would tell them about God's grace and His mercy and kindness to all His creatures, as Paul did in Acts 17 on Mars Hill, and leave it at that.

As believers, we need not fear God's wrath, because we are not under it.



May God bless you sir.

 

[Benjamin]

I would not tell an unbeliever anything about God's love, ...

That’s too bad, because Love is who He is and what He is about.

 

[Dave G]

Love is not His primary attribute, Benjamin.

God does not lead all actions with love.

" And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come." ( Revelation 4:8 )

" And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, [is] the LORD of hosts: the whole earth [is] full of his glory." ( Isaiah 6:3 )

" Let them praise thy great and terrible name; [for] it [is] holy." Psalms 99:3 )



He leads with absence of sin...perfect holiness and righteousness.
This is why He will not tolerate disobedience...but I'm sure that you know this already.

Because of His holiness and intolerance for sin, He instituted judgment and everlasting punishment.
In perfect righteousness.

Whatever His judgments are, we can be sure that they will be carried out, and it will be accurate and true.
He leads with His purposes, and that they are always right and just.


I would hope that you and I could both agree with that.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Love is not His primary attribute, Benjamin.

God does not lead all actions with love.

" And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come." ( Revelation 4:8 )

" And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, [is] the LORD of hosts: the whole earth [is] full of his glory." ( Isaiah 6:3 )

" Let them praise thy great and terrible name; [for] it [is] holy." Psalms 99:3 )



He leads with absence of sin...perfect holiness and righteousness.
This is why He will not tolerate disobedience...but I'm sure that you know this already.

Because of His holiness and intolerance for sin, He instituted judgment and everlasting punishment.
In perfect righteousness.

Whatever His judgments are, we can be sure that they will be carried out, and it will be accurate and true.
He leads with His purposes, and that they are always right and just.


I would hope that you and I could both agree with that.

Love is all they focus in on...like a laser beam.

 

[Rockson]

The Next Night……………

Father (tucking his 10-year-old daughter into bed): Sleep tight, my precious child. And always remember, Jesus loves you.

Daughter: I know, daddy. Jesus loves all children.

Father: That’s right.

Daughter: Daddy?

Father: Yes, my child.

Daughter: Does Jesus love the Amalekite children?

Father: Of course, He does. He loves all children.

Daughter: Does Jesus love the Hittite, Amorite, Canaanite, Perizzite, Hivite and Jebusite children as well?

Father: Yes, my dear. I said He loves all children. ‘All’ means exactly that….no one is excluded.

Daughter: Does Jesus love the children of Sodom and Gomorrah?

Father: Every last one. Why do you ask all these questions?

Daughter: My friend, Jimmy, showed me in the Bible where God commands the Israelites to kill every Amalekite, even children and infants (1 Samuel 15:3).

He then showed me where God commands the Israelites to kill every living, breathing Hittite, Amorite, Canaanite, etc. That would include children and infants (Deuteronomy 20:16).

He then showed me where God destroyed every living thing in Sodom and Gomorrah, sparing no child or infant (Genesis 19:24-25).

(Suddenly the little girl bursts into tears.)

Father: What’s wrong, child?

Daughter: Daddy, please pray for me.

Father: Of course! What would like me to pray?

Daughter: Please pray God not to love me as much as He loved those millions of children and infants!

Well....to make a supposedly funny little jesting thing out of children who died and of whom God loved and loves....I'd suggest no offense but is a little lame not in good taste, but I guess to each their own.

OK, I've heard this at various times....that how could God LOVE the little children who died in Sodom, or the Hittite, Amorite, Canaanite children or let's even look at the children that perished in the flood of Noah.

First of all....where did we ever read that God "hated" these children? I'd suggest something in your heart knows he didn't and that such would be impossible. I'll say this first.....this life IS NOT ALL there is. This life is but a vapor of our existence which carries on forever. The same with these children. I think I can guess most people reading this DO BELIEVE in some age of accountability and I think with good reason. So these children went undoubtedly straight to Heaven. God did and does ....LOVE THEM. So how about we not mockingly question that.

OK as for life on the Earth....unfortunately at times....some things need to be done. Cultures or even a world at times need to be judged. Let's take the big one....Noah's flood. God is long suffering to a world but when it reaches the point where God would not longer be good to allow it to continue for one more moment at that point.... judgement has to fall. When it comes to all the various corrupt cultures of the middle east that God told Israel to destroy it was basically the same principle . God was bringing judgement on them as well though he bore long in long suffering towards them . Where do we read that?

An interesting thing God said to Abraham 500 years prior to these cultures being judged,

Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.” Gen 15:16

That seems to suggest Israel itself was going to be held back in Egypt until the sins of the Amorities had reached full measure. In other words....the long suffering of God was shown to these cultures. They however repented not.

Back to the children of these cultures middle eastern or the flood of Noah. Because God is LOVE he had to say enough is enough and put a stop to them. Let's just say the best option was to bring those children to heaven. NO they didn't get to live out their lives on the Earth....BUT they got to live forever and the presence of God the place where there's FULL love, joy and peace, and not being raised in a culture where there would not even be a smidgen of a chance of being raised rightly. I've often suggested there'll be a day where God might say, He's sorry but let me explain. Not sorry that he did anything wrong...he didn't. But he might say or might have already said, "I'm sorry that I had to do that but as you can see I had no other REAL option." Those children will be looking upon their earthly parents whoever they were as the ones that failed them....NOT GOD, and they'll be living forever as they always have in the presence of God's goodness and mercy throughout eternity.

 

[Dave G]

I think I can guess most people reading this DO BELIEVE in some age of accountability and I think with good reason.

I used to hear that growing up in Baptist churches, but could never get the pastor to show where it was in Scripture.
Unfortunately, I do not believe in an "age of accountability", Rockson, and I do not see the Bible explicitly teaching one:

" The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." ( Psalms 58:3 )

" for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" ( Romans 3:23 )

" For [there] is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." ( Ecclesiastes 7:20 )

" as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 and the way of peace have they not known:
18 there is no fear of God before their eyes. " ( Romans 3:10-18 )

To me, reason has nothing to do with it.

What does God say?

 

[Benjamin]

Love is all they focus in on...like a laser beam.

Too bad that bothers you so much...but,...Thank You!

 

[SovereignGrace]

Too bad that bothers you so much...but,...Thank You!

That's not what I mean and you know that. God is love, but that is not all that He is. With that, I wash my hands of you and @Rockson. Adios.

 

[Dave G]

Benjamin,
Speaking for myself here.

It doesn't bother me all that much that you think that God covers everything with His love and that He does everything with an eye to that;
What bothers me is that you read His word, and it seems that's almost all you see.

In the Psalms and Proverbs alone there is far more to Him than love.

His love has a target.
The righteous.
His wrath also has a target...the unrighteous.


In the Old Testament, He is terrible to Israel's enemies, and hard on a disobedient Israel itself.
In the New Testament, there are moments when disobedient believers are chastised unto death ( Corinth ), unbelievers are struck blind, Herod was eaten with worms, etc.
His patience has limits, and He is not unwilling to show His wrath and to make His power known to all of His creation.

He's frightening and terrible to His enemies, and not to be trifled with.
He's not a cuddly teddy bear or someone who is to be taken lightly...

He's not a man who can be negotiated with, or bluffed or asked to forgive casually;
He doesn't give His favor to every man, and He doesn't forgive every man of their disobedience.

He's deadly serious about sin, and those who do not believe on His Son are going to suffer an eternity in Hell.


His wrath is very real, and His love is special with regard to those it is aimed at.

Do you not understand this?



As a believer in Jesus Christ, you have much to be grateful for.

 

[Rockson]

I used to hear that growing up in Baptist churches, but could never get the pastor to show where it was in Scripture.
Unfortunately, I do not believe in an "age of accountability", Rockson, and I do not see the Bible explicitly teaching one:

Well David....why would you? Why should God put down 7 years old? Somebody not that age might say they don't need to pray? Why should God discourage that? 13, 21 whatever number you want to give.

Was an age of 20 perhaps considered and age of accountability? Can't prove it but such was the age in which God held people not accountable for not going into the promised land. If one considers what anyone under that age basically are....a mixture between a child and adult. A child's state of mind...is not mature although as teenagers some mature faster than others. Even in our legal system minors aren't held to the same level of judgement as they're given the benefit of the doubt of their minds having not yet matured.

I get what you're saying Dave....there's no scripture....but I'd suggest to you knowing full well that you'll make light of my suggestion but the fact is....you don't have to have scripture for absolutely everything. And there's reasons why I said prior that God would never spell such out with a number.
There's reasonable arguments I think to show the following is Paul talking about the principle of an age of time of accountability.

"Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died" (Romans 7:9)

 

[Dave G]

Rockson,

My reliability comes from God's word, not "reasonable arguments".
If He says something, I believe it.

" Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil." ( Proverbs 3:5-7 )

If He's silent on it, I take that as meaning I don't have a "need to know".

But He's not silent about who are sinners....
All of us.

 

[Rockson]

Here's why...

Proverbs 26:4


I am just going to ignore both of yours' posts from now on. I am not putting you on ignore, but I am going to ignore your posts.

You're not going to do any such thing! If you were going to ignore our posts you'd just go all the way and put us on ignore which if you felt so strongly against us I'd encourage you to do that very thing. What you'll do is watch over us I guess and if a Calvinist gets in trouble you'll jump in here and do what you can in your opinion to save the day.....which means of course you won't be ignoring our posts. Oh and quite frankly SG....I COULD CARE LESS WHAT YOU DO in regard to reading or not reading my posts...Nope...won't be losing any sleep over it so blah, blah, blah all you want.