Two Disparate Rule Books

[Dave G]

I’d be a little concerned about my enthusiasm and pride with preaching a manmade systematic philosophical construct that used the scriptures the same way as you but tare used o achieve an opposite result.

Pride has nothing to do with it, Benjamin.

Biblical election is like having a great uncle you never knew you had, die and leave his multi-million dollar estate to you...
One minute you're poor, and the next, you're unbelievably wealthy.

Did you do anything to get it?

No.

Can't take credit for one bit of it, can you?
That's God's grace in the salvation of sinners.

Make no mistake, my enthusiasm is for the truth....but my heart still breaks when someone I love doesn't believe on Christ.

The answer is FAITH my friend, TRUE FAITH from “YOUR” heart (Romans 10:9) and that comes in love of the TRUTH, God is not Only LOVE but is also TRUTH. There are no excuses not to respond, there is no getting around it, God is LOVE and you got a choice to love that TRUH because He isn’t going to force you to do anything, he’s just going to let those who can’t find it in themselves to love Him back, the unthankful (Romans 1:21) the fools (Romans 1:22) to be judged for their sins and sinners don’t get to be in His Kingdom so they can just FREELY take up residence with their buddy who also doesn’t like the idea of God being Love or having to make his own choice one way or the other.

Apparently you've missed the entire point that I was trying to make.

God is love ( 1 John 4:7-21 ), and He is the best friend a sinner could ever have.
But look at the passage carefully...who is it written to?
The beloved.

He loved us, His children.

Yes, God is also truth ( John 14:6 ) and in Him is no lie.
But you really need to take a closer look at what His word says about His love and who it is aimed at, and I think that you will see the truth behind it.


Secondly, God doesn't force a person to do anything?

I think it would behoove you to re-read the entire Old Testament ( and some of the New ) a few times.
He's forced people to do quite a lot of things they didn't want to do.
Nebuchadnezzar, Jonah, Ba'alam, He kept Abimilech from sinning, He struck Herod with worms, and these two are coming soon:

" And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 )

" For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled." ( Revelation 17:17 )


He's even blinded people to the truth of the Gospel:

" What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (according as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day." ( Romans 11:7-8 )



If it hasn't been stated before, I'll state it now:
It seems that your God and my God are two very different beings with a disparate rule book:


Yours is Love and doesn't force a man to do anything he doesn't want to do, and only reluctantly let's man hang himself with his own rope, going by what I understand you saying.

Mine is a holy God greatly to be respected for His power and will, His awesome majesty and willingness to punish sin and sinners by casting them into the depths of a Lake of Fire for all eternity...Who dispenses His love and mercy to those whom He has decided to ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:15 ). As men, we've already hung ourselves ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ), and He has already decided who to save and who to reserve for everlasting punishment.

But as time plays out, His elect are called by His Gospel...his word goes forth, and accomplishes that which He has determined that it will ( Isaiah 55:11 ).

Why?
Because He is God, and we are all guilty, rebellious dogs ( Revelation 22:15 ) without the blood of His Son to cleanse us... worthy of nothing but death for the heinous crimes perpetrated upon His Holy Person over more than 6,000 years since He created us.

Incidentally, He doesn't call people that He loves, "dogs".

But there's hope:
If you've believed on the Son of God for the forgiveness of your sins, count yourself incredibly blessed, Benjamin...because there are a lot of your fellow men who aren't as blessed as you ( Matthew 7:14 ).

As one of His sheep, Jesus will say this to you:

" Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" ( Matthew 25:34 )


...and He shall say this to those that He doesn't love:

" Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" ( Matthew 25:41 )



That's the God I worship, and when I read His words...sometimes I even tremble at them.
This is my final reply to you in this thread, Benjamin.



May God bless you greatly in all that He has for you to do, sir.

 

[Rockson]

Pride has nothing to do with it, Benjamin.

Biblical election is like having a great uncle you never knew you had, die and leave his multi-million dollar estate to you...
One minute you're poor, and the next, you're unbelievably wealthy.

Did you do anything to get it?

No.

Stop

What do you mean Dave you don't have to do anything for it? Yes the great inheritance is given to you....yes FREELY...BUT.....if you're going to use natural analogies then let's give the full picture. Per your illustration above YES you do have to do something about it. Receiving notice you've got to go to a lawyers office and sign papers.

You take the check and have to deposit it in the bank. You even have to withdraw from the account . Because the uncle gave you the gift or blessing DOES NOT MEAN you don't have to do something to have it become a materialized reality. Yes he did all the work to make that fortune, he did it not you you're right...BUT.... you.... still.... HAVE... to... do... SOMETHING.

And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this corrupt generation. Acts 2:40

Oh Peter was saying that had to do something? Clearly that's what he said? Believing and receiving from God is something we do....God then releases his grace. And our believing and receiving from God IS NOT A WORK any more than what you said about the uncle who give you an inheritance! He did it! Not you BUT.....there's a few things on a certain level you've got to do.

 

[Dave G]

What do you mean Dave you don't have to do anything for it? Yes the great inheritance is given to you....yes FREELY...BUT.....if you're going to use natural analogies then let's give the full picture. Per your illustration above YES you do have to do something about it. Receiving notice you've got to go to a lawyers office and sign papers.

You take the check and have to deposit it in the bank. You even have to withdraw from the account . Because the uncle gave you the gift or blessing DOES NOT MEAN you don't have to do something to have it become a materialized reality. Yes he did all the work to make that fortune, he did it not you you're right...BUT.... you.... still.... HAVE... to... do... SOMETHING.

And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this corrupt generation. Acts 2:40

Oh Peter was saying that had to do something? Clearly that's what he said? Believing and receiving from God is something we do....God then releases his grace. And our believing and receiving from God IS NOT A WORK any more than what you said about the uncle who give you an inheritance! He did it! Not you BUT.....there's a few things on a certain level you've got to do.

I'll break in and reply to you one more time, Rockson, even though I said that I was finished earlier.
Please forgive this one instance:



Amazing...and you don't see those efforts as "works"?
Essentially, what I see you saying is, that "God releases His grace to someone who performs an action ( or set of actions ) in order to get Him to release it."

That sounds very familiar.
With respect, I think I read something similar to it recently:

Catechism of the Catholic Church

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Molinism

An Outline of the FACTS of Arminianism vs. The TULIP of Calvinism

Beliefs of the Churches of Christ - Boone Church of Christ
How does one become a member of the church of Christ?
In the salvation of man's soul there are 2 necessary parts: God's part and man's part. God's part is the big part, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift if God; not of works, that no man should glory" (Ephesians 2:8-9). The love which God felt for man led him to send Christ into the world to redeem man. The life and teaching of Jesus, the sacrifice on the cross, and the proclaiming of the gospel to men constitute God's part in salvation.
Though God's part is the big part, man's part is also necessary if man is to reach heaven. Man must comply with the conditions of pardon which the Lord has announced. Man's part can clearly set forth in the following steps:
Hear the Gospel. "How shall they call on him whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:14).
Believe. "And without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him" (Hebrews 11:6).
Repent of past sins. "The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commandeth men that they should all everywhere repent" (Acts 17:30).
Confess Jesus as Lord. "Behold here is water; What doth hinder me to be baptized ? And Philip said, if thou believeth with all thy heart thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).
Be baptized for the remission of sins. "And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).
Live a Christian life. "Ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Peter 2:9).


What Must I Do to be Saved? - John R. Rice - Wholesome Words


To me, what you've been saying all the time I've been on this board sounds quite a bit like merit-based procurement of the grace of God, based on an individual's performance.

Am I misunderstanding your beliefs about the Bible?
I want very much to be sure I'm getting all this right, so as not to reach an improper conclusion, or to offend you by mis-characterizing your person in any way.

In my estimation, what you're describing is nothing but a marketplace "deal", with a reward of eternal life for meeting the right conditions; not the grace of God ( Romans 11:5-6 ).

I do hope that I am wrong...but, if I'm not:




Wow...
We really do have a different understanding of the Bible, sir.

 

[Benjamin]

Pride has nothing to do with it, Benjamin.

Biblical election...

See here, even bolding your text is not going to allow you to get away with starting your argument by question begging that your view of predetermined election is the Biblically correct one. Or at least try to understand that anyone with basic logical critical thinking skills sees right past such fallacies and probably rolls their eyes at your prideful attempts to start your argument with premises which are assuming the unproven truth of your conclusion.

Apparently you've missed the entire point that I was trying to make.

God is love

( 1 John 4:7-21 ), and He is the best friend a sinner could ever have.
But look at the passage carefully...who is it written to?
The beloved.

He loved us, His children.

Yes, God is also truth ( John 14:6 ) and in Him is no lie.
But you really need to take a closer look at what His word says about His love and who it is aimed at, and I think that you will see the truth behind it.

Ah, but I know your point very well and where it leads, my friend. I just wish you understood that your enthusiastic proof-texting is meaningless when your reasoning does not back up your interpretations or the conclusions to follow.

When backed against a wall you, and most Calvinist, will confess to God’s love but not unlike your lack of transparency when giving the gospel about the “facts” that most have no ability to receive the promise due to not being lucky enough to be pre-selected, that love you speak of, in truth according to your views is profoundly limited for you, and them to then try to maintain the REAL TRUTH that God is LOVE in His very being.

You’re reasoning can only conclude that God’s love is only for who it aimed at pre-deterministically and such reasoning cannot avoid the pitfalls of attributing evil upon God within His creation and to void the truth in His judgment of His creature’s responses to His loving persuasions.

Secondly, God doesn't force a person to do anything?

God’s Divine Providentially Sovereign judgments in the present time on volitional creatures, in regards to forcing them into something, a response, still greatly differ from the theologically fatalistic views of Determinism force fitted onto election by those who interpret the scriptures through the lenses of Systematic Determinism to deny the true ability of human response to His love, thereby denying the power of His love.

He's even blinded people to the truth of the Gospel:

Gee, I wonder why God would have to blind people who have no ability to respond in the first place, blind them to His limited love that He saves for only His pre-selected few? Hint: God's judgment was against them for their responses, this does not void His love for the world which He created.

That's the God I worship, and when I read His words...sometimes I even tremble at them.

Again, I'm full aware of your view of God and how you get there, through repeating philosophical systematic constructs, as well as your enthusiasm to teach others "your" system and to demonstrate your theological skills with how many scriptures you can come up with to proof-text what you think proves your system to be correct. What I have a problem with is your presuppositions focused on that arrive through the lenses of Systematic Determinism to which your poor reasoning continually fails to logically support your conclusions regarding these scriptures as being true, and you don't seem to think that as important as to keep your proof-texting rolling for the reason mentioned above.

Like I said, Yeah, it’s good that you like to use the scriptures to make your reasoning for you but the Devil is pretty good at using the scriptures too and I don’t like his reasoning!

This is my final reply to you in this thread, Benjamin.

And may God bless you as well.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'll break in and reply to you one more time, Rockson, even though I said that I was finished earlier.
Please forgive this one instance:



Amazing...and you don't see those efforts as "works"?
Essentially, what I see you saying is, that "God releases His grace to someone who performs an action ( or set of actions ) in order to get Him to release it."

That sounds very familiar.
With respect, I think I read something similar to it recently:

Catechism of the Catholic Church

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Molinism

An Outline of the FACTS of Arminianism vs. The TULIP of Calvinism

Beliefs of the Churches of Christ - Boone Church of Christ
How does one become a member of the church of Christ?
In the salvation of man's soul there are 2 necessary parts: God's part and man's part. God's part is the big part, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift if God; not of works, that no man should glory" (Ephesians 2:8-9). The love which God felt for man led him to send Christ into the world to redeem man. The life and teaching of Jesus, the sacrifice on the cross, and the proclaiming of the gospel to men constitute God's part in salvation.
Though God's part is the big part, man's part is also necessary if man is to reach heaven. Man must comply with the conditions of pardon which the Lord has announced. Man's part can clearly set forth in the following steps:
Hear the Gospel. "How shall they call on him whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:14).
Believe. "And without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him" (Hebrews 11:6).
Repent of past sins. "The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commandeth men that they should all everywhere repent" (Acts 17:30).
Confess Jesus as Lord. "Behold here is water; What doth hinder me to be baptized ? And Philip said, if thou believeth with all thy heart thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).
Be baptized for the remission of sins. "And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).
Live a Christian life. "Ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Peter 2:9).


What Must I Do to be Saved? - John R. Rice - Wholesome Words


To me, what you've been saying all the time I've been on this board sounds quite a bit like merit-based procurement of the grace of God, based on an individual's performance.

Am I misunderstanding your beliefs about the Bible?
I want very much to be sure I'm getting all this right, so as not to reach an improper conclusion, or to offend you by mis-characterizing your person in any way.

In my estimation, what you're describing is nothing but a marketplace "deal", with a reward of eternal life for meeting the right conditions; not the grace of God ( Romans 11:5-6 ).

I do hope that I am wrong...but, if I'm not:




Wow...
We really do have a different understanding of the Bible, sir.

Their view of justification by faith is on par with the RCC's view.

 

[Rockson]

I'll break in and reply to you one more time, Rockson, even though I said that I was finished earlier.
Please forgive this one instance:

Sure Dave I'll forgive even more than one instance.

Amazing...and you don't see those efforts as "works"?
Essentially, what I see you saying is, that "God releases His grace to someone who performs an action ( or set of actions ) in order to get Him to release it."

No I don't Dave. And it's my hope that you would come to see they're not.

Consider this scripture,

For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10: 8-13

You see here Paul if we put it in modern words is saying, You don't have to go up to heaven to pull him down to help you to BRING salvation, nor do you have to bring him up from the deep. If you're wanting help and salvation from God he gave you YES it's a methodology of how to get God to manifest himself...and some may not like my words calling it a type of methodology but really it is) and that is believe in your heart the gospel message and express your belief by declaring you receive it.....and notice how he puts it.....You shall be saved. [that is future tense] You shall be....you're not until you do the before. Correct me if I'm wrong but here's what you say......Salvation comes...it's imparted....and then you believe and confess what he's put in you. No. Unto takes it to the end....which is salvation.... so believe...confess....unto-->Salvation. Not salvation first. So believing, confessing is that which man does as in Peter declaring, "Save yourself from this corrupt generation!" Acts 2:40

 

[Rockson]

Their view of justification by faith is on par with the RCC's view.

I don't know about any of this. All I know is what Romans 10 : 8-10 says and that's the Bible.

 

[Benjamin]

I don't know about any of this. All I know is what Romans 10 : 8-10 says and that's the Bible.

Yup, one of my favorites:

(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note: You is used 4 times in this verse. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing.

 

[Rockson]

Yup, one of my favorites:

(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note: You is used 4 times in this verse. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we do nothing.]

Yeah reminds me of a man to whom he hears a call, "Hey YOU!"

He turns all the way around one way to see who the voice was calling. Nobody there. He turns his body around the other way and finds likewise....nobody there. Finally he looks at the one calling, points his finger at himself and asks, "Me?" The voice comes back, "Yeah YOU!"

God calls men to do what only they can do. Hold forth that rod over the Red Sea, walk seven times around the city Jericho and then blow the horns, believe in your heart and confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and ....God does only what he can do.....brings deliverance and salvation. The deliverance and salvation was all of God but men....did something.

 

[utilyan]

Their view of justification by faith is on par with the RCC's view.

I can imagine Calvinist View.

 

[Protestant]

Rockson wrote: “God calls men to do what only they can do.”

Let’s do some basic Bible exegesis by defining terms.

Can: “to be able to; have the ability, power, or skill to.”

The Bible teaches the opposite.

God commands men to do that which is their duty.

Nowhere does God limit His commands to that which, at the time, is pleasing to men, only to be obeyed if they feel like it.

Nor do the commands of God infer man’s natural ability to comply.

Furthermore, the Bible uses innumerable metaphors and similes which depict the natural man as unwilling and unable to come to Christ by a true and living faith.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day (John 6:44).

“No man” means ‘none.’

‘None can come to me’ means ‘not one person on planet Earth has the natural ability or power to come to Christ with a true and living faith.’

The sole exception occurs when the Father, who sent Christ to save those given Him, efficaciously draws a person to Christ by His omnipotent power, instilling a true and living faith in him (John 6:65).

Christ promises all given Him by the Father will never be cast out of His Kingdom (John 6:37).

Not all who come to Christ professing faith in Him are drawn by the Father. Nor are they given to Christ for redemption.

These are the many counterfeit Christians who shall be rejected, hogtied and cast into outer darkness forever (Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 22:1-13).

Once again, Rockson unashamedly makes unbiblical assertions which are antithetical to the clear teachings of Scripture.

 

[Benjamin]

Rockson got it right, despite Protestant’s eisegesis of John 6:44.

Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text.

The Bible teaches the opposite of Protestant's systematic doctrines of inability, exclusion and a lack of God’s Love for the whole world.

Christ, while keeping their murmuring in check, continues in John 6:44, …no man comes to Me, unless my Father draw him - No man can believe in Christ, unless God give him power: he draws men first, by good and loving desires. Not by compulsion, but by persuasion, by the strong and sweet, yet still resistible, motions of his heavenly grace to which their true response of faith or not, their love of the truth will be under His judgment.

Man has to do something, he had to hear and he had to learn. Which man? Only a few specially preselected men?

“Every man” means all.

Next verse:

John 6:45

(45) It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

They “can” because of the promise being fulfilled, they (all things made) have seen the power and the Godhead and have no excuse (Romans 1:20) “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”

Only some, when they heard, have hardened their hearts, they did not consider reason, then neither would they understand: they were not judicially hardened, it was by their choice and with that they chose not to affirm the truth, not to hear and not to learn and until they did their spiritual understanding would be left lacking.

Mark 8:17-18

(17) And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?

(18) Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

Hmmm, back to Romans 1:20, I wonder what are these invisible things are that are coming to light and being clearly seen concerning the coming of Christ? Romans 1:2-3

Could it be? Could it really be!? – That this coming of Jesus Christ was not just for the preselected Jews as they believed but for the whole world?!!! John 3:16. Could that be that what they need to understand is that salvation doesn’t come in pedigreed predestination or being specially preselected predestination BUT the predestination that comes in Jesus Christ, and not of works but under one condition, for all men in the world, the condition of FAITH?!

MY, MY, the Jews must have been jealous that people could have faith and be welcomed to the wedding without the PRE-SELECTION CARD, eh? No wonder they didn’t get it, they thought they were specially preselected and now they found they would be judged for only one thing, only one thing that one has to do, which was to have FAITH!

Tying it together, we see in this example the Bible uses the knowledge of Progressive Revelation to expose the error of Jewish thought of the belief of being privileged and having been specially preselected to reveal the necessary condition of faith throughout scripture, but as per 1Cor 2 the natural man does perceive the spiritual understanding that the gift of grace is, and always has been though the truth of faith.

It seems like the Jews, the Calvinist do not remember what they have heard, they still believe they have been specially preselected and will have no choice but to be saved, despite John trying to straighten this belief out (Mathew 3:9), despite their excuses of inability (Romans 1:20) to meet that condition (Hebrews 11:6) unless they have been forced against their will.

Pity…like the Jews they don’t believe Jesus Christ came to truly give the light of His grace to the whole world. Maybe worse yet, despite the Joy and Glory of the Word of God coming into the world to bring light for the Wonderful purpose demonstrate God’s great LOVE for the World He created they confess to being “unwilling”:

Joh 5:37-40

(37) And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

(38) And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

(39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

(40) And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

I'd be careful Protestant that you don't find your name in your own accusations:

“These are the many counterfeit Christians who shall be rejected, hogtied and cast into outer darkness forever (Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 22:1-13).

Once again, Protestant unashamedly makes unbiblical assertions which are antithetical to the clear teachings of Scripture.”

 

[Rockson]

Rockson wrote: “God calls men to do what only they can do.”

Let’s do some basic Bible exegesis by defining terms.

Can: “to be able to; have the ability, power, or skill to.”

The Bible teaches the opposite.

"P" please stop being ridiculous. All I meant to say is God looks to man to demonstrate obedience through actions which take faith., Noah built the Ark, Moses spread out his rod at God's instruction, the people of Israel put their feet in the Jordan before it split, the same people walked around Jericho seven times and blew their rams horns...they had to show obedience to God in what THEY COULD DO and then God would release his power. The widow at Zarephath did what she could do....she gave her last meal to the prophet and the jar never ran out until rain came. A little boy gave his launch to Jesus and he multiplied it to feed 5,000! God calls men to do what they can do and God does what only he can do. But you want to build what I said into some extreme idea that we have power and ability to do everything. Nonsense.

Nowhere does God limit His commands to that which, at the time, is pleasing to men, only to be obeyed if they feel like it.

What in the world are you talking about! Where did I ever suggest otherwise?

Nor do the commands of God infer man’s natural ability to comply.

Depends on what you mean. God did tell Israel to keep the law but to show them their need for a Savior. And God encourages people to repent but they do have the capacity to respond to his request.

Once again, Rockson unashamedly makes unbiblical assertions which are antithetical to the clear teachings of Scripture.

No I don't....You Do! Well if you can make mere assertions I can too.

 

[Dave G]

Dear reader,
There we have it. The two disparate rule books.


1) On the free will side we have man cooperating with God to gain His favor and grace ( Acts of the Apostles 2:40, Romans 10:9-10 ). God loves everyone ( John 3:16 ), wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth ( 1 Timothy 2:4 ) and He is not willing that any perish ( 2 Peter 3:9 ), but that all come to repentance. God so loved all of mankind that He sent His Son to die for all men ( John 1:29, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, 1 Timothy 2:6, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:14 ) to provide a potential salvation ( no verses used that declare salvation as a "potential" )...one that relies upon the free will choice of men to "seal the deal" ( no verses used to support this declaration ). Faith is something that is inherent in every man ( Prevenient Grace, no verses in support except perhaps Romans 10:17 ) that only needs to be exercised in conjunction with the hearing of the Gospel.

Proponents of this system currently number in excess of 1.5 billion. This message can be found on television, radio, on the Internet, in literature and in every place one looks or listens to anything "Christian". Almost every Christian church on every street corner in America, Great Britain, Africa, Asia, Australia, Europe and the world in general, teaches some variation of this core set of doctrines, with only two major differences:

On one hand, many free will adherents believe that salvation can be lost, while on the other, there are those who teach that it cannot.

Both agree that man must do something...what, exactly, is never really agreed upon, but runs the length from "simply believing on Christ" all the way up to keeping the commandments, Lordship Salvation, being baptized, confessing Christ, doing good works, reciting "Hail Mary's", doing penance, and a whole host of other efforts that result in God being pleased and then releasing His grace to the person who performs the correct works of righteousness.

Essentially, eternal life becomes a reward for pleasing God.
The term "get saved" has been said to be related to this process of gaining the favor of God by personal performance.




2) On the God's will side, we have God working everything after the counsel or His own will ( Ephesians 1:11 ), including the choosing to salvation and supernatural calling through His Gospel of a people for Himself ( Acts of the Apostles 2:39, Acts of the Apostles 2:47, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9:23, Ephesians 1:4-5, 1 Peter 1:2, 1 Peter 2:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ) out of every tongue, tribe and nation ( Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9 ), and who sent His Son to pay for their sins ( Isaiah 53:8, Matthew 1:21, Matthew 20:28, Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, John 10:11, John 10:15, John 15:13-15, Ephesians 5:25, Colossians 2:13-14, 1 John 2:2, Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 10:14-18 ). God loves His children ( Matthew 25:31-46, John 3:36, Romans 5:8, Romans 8:31-39, Ephesians 2:4, Ephesians 2:10 ) and no others.

Faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ), authored and finished by their Saviour ( Hebrews 12:2 ) that accompanies the gift of eternal life ( Romans 6:23 ), and that God has given to each of His children freely, with no compunction or effort required of men ( Titus 3:4-7 ). They are kept by His power through faith, ready to be revealed in the last time ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).

Proponents of this system currently number in excess of several million. This message can be found on the Internet, through some literature, and in a very few churches in out-of-the-way corners of every country in the world. This core set of doctrines is getting harder to find more and more over the past 200 years, and is getting scarcer by the day.

All God's will adherents agree that there is nothing a man can do to merit God's favor and grace, and that their salvation cannot be lost, because God loves His children that much. Eternal life is truly a gift, given to those who never expected to receive it, and who never went looking for it ( Romans 10:20 ).

The terms "believed on Christ" or "came to Christ" have been said to be related to this process of being found in the favor of God by reacting to His inner working and power.




In these last days, with the time of His Son's coming drawing very near, we see in God's word these declarations:

" For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 and they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." ( 2 Timothy 4:3-4 )

There shall be a falling away, and people will turn their ears and eyes away from sound doctrine, and run wholesale after doctrines that tickle their ears with pleasure. They shall gather to themselves teachers who shall teach them fables...untruths about God's word that they find easy to listen to.


" This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away." ( 2 Timothy 3:1-5 )

Lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God.



With these in mind, what tickles the ear, warms the flesh and gives the most pleasure to unbelieving mankind...

1) A God that loves everyone, is not willing that any should perish, that sent His Son to offer the potential to become saved and that awaits man's free will decision to release that grace?

OR

2) A God that loves His children whom He has chosen from the foundation of the world, is willing to show wrath to those whom He does not love and who justly deserve it, and who sent His Son to secure a sure salvation for His children and that waits on His own will and purposes...who then bestows His grace and favor to those whom He chooses without them having to lift a finger to release it?



From strictly a marketing standpoint, I think the answer is very clear.
Church growth is all but guaranteed in option #1.

On a side note, no effort has been made to mock or otherwise cast aspersions upon the other side's beliefs, but to objectively make an attempt to show, by apparent means, which set of doctrines is far more attractive to mankind in general, and which side will get less "traction" with their message.





May God bless you all in the knowledge of His grace and mercy, and may you be relieved to find that this is my final post in this thread.

 

[Rockson]

1) On the free will side we have man cooperating with God to gain His favor and grace ( Acts of the Apostles 2:40, Romans 10:9-10 ). God loves everyone ( John 3:16 ), wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth ( 1 Timothy 2:4 ) and He is not willing that any perish ( 2 Peter 3:9 ), but that all come to repentance. God so loved all of mankind that He sent His Son to die for all men ( John 1:29, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, 1 Timothy 2:6, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:14 ) to provide a potential salvation ( no verses used that declare salvation as a "potential" )...one that relies upon the free will choice of men to "seal the deal" ( no verses used to support this declaration )

If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. John 7:17

Both agree that man must do something...what, exactly, is never really agreed upon,

Well Dave if you're going to mock Christians because they don't all agree with everything then you better mock people of your belief's as well. There's hyper-Calvinists, 5 Point ones, 4 point ones with slightly differing ideas.

Essentially, eternal life becomes a reward for pleasing God.

Well pleasing God by doing one thing.... believe in your heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:9-10

Dave it's believing unto righteousness FIRST and confession is made UNTO salvation. Salvation is imparted when one shows God these expressions of faith. But you have it salvation FIRST. That's not scriptural. Unto means it takes one to such an end result. Unto salvation.

A God that loves His children whom He has chosen from the foundation of the world,

God loves all of humanity whether you realize it or not. He wants and long for ALL to become his children. God's not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

is willing to show wrath to those whom He does not love

God loves all for God is LOVE. He doesn't have LOVE but is LOVE. 1 John 4:8 If you're going to quote verses like Esau have I hated you better do some research to see how words in language can be used in metonymy.

 

[Yeshua1]

If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. John 7:17



Well Dave if you're going to mock Christians because they don't all agree with everything then you better mock people of your belief's as well. There's hyper-Calvinists, 5 Point ones, 4 point ones with slightly differing ideas.




Well pleasing God by doing one thing.... believe in your heart that God has raised Jesus from the dead you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:9-10

Dave it's believing unto righteousness FIRST and confession is made UNTO salvation. Salvation is imparted when one shows God these expressions of faith. But you have it salvation FIRST. That's not scriptural. Unto means it takes one to such an end result. Unto salvation.



God loves all of humanity whether you realize it or not. He wants and long for ALL to become his children. God's not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.




God loves all for God is LOVE. He doesn't have LOVE but is LOVE. 1 John 4:8 If you're going to quote verses like Esau have I hated you better do some research to see how words in language can be used in metonymy.

he is also Holy, so His love is always balanced with Holiness!

 

[Protestant]

Rockson wrote: “What do you mean Dave you don't have to do anything for it? Yes the great inheritance is given to you....yes FREELY...BUT.....if you're going to use natural analogies then let's give the full picture. Per your illustration above YES you do have to do something about it. Receiving notice you've got to go to a lawyers office and sign papers.

You take the check and have to deposit it in the bank. You even have to withdraw from the account . Because the uncle gave you the gift or blessing DOES NOT MEAN you don't have to do something to have it become a materialized reality. Yes he did all the work to make that fortune, he did it not you you're right...BUT.... you.... still.... HAVE... to... do... SOMETHING."
*******************************************************************
Once again, Rockson’s analogies fall on rocky ground.

Our God uses direct deposit:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people (Jeremiah 31:33).

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them (Ezekiel 36:27).

 

[Protestant]

Rockson wrote: “God loves all of humanity whether you realize it or not. He wants and long for ALL to become his children. God's not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”
******************************************************************************
Rockson has yet to answer the following questions, using biblical texts only.

(1) The Bible is quite clear. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 10:9-14).

Please prove the love of God to the millions who never heard the one way of salvation and perished in their sins, though you claim God was not willing for any human to perish.

(2) Why do some believe the Gospel, while most do not? Why does Paul insist it is God alone who makes the difference? (1 Cor. 4:7; 1 Thess. 1:5; James 1:17).

(3) Please explain why a God who loves all mankind has devised a brutal, never ending, inconceivably merciless punishment for many of those He ‘loves.’

We await your biblical replies with bated breath.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 11:45 PM Pacific.

 

[Benjamin]

Rockson has yet to answer the following questions, using biblical texts only.

Oh please, give us a break with this "we don't use scripture" baloney while you guys fail to give reason for your interpretations. I've already answered your fallacious methods of using the scriptures in this thread...

(1) The Bible is quite clear. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 10:9-14).

Romans 10:9-14?!? Are you serious!? LOL. I could preach that against the Calvinist doctrines all day long, Eph 2:8-9 also for that matter…

The problem you have is that you believe to receive to faith it would have to be a work of ours and not of God’s gracious enlightenment us to bring our response of faith that it is resistible, rather than being irresistible as Calvinism teaches.

Maybe you missed this:

Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting a text or portion of text in such a way that the process introduces one's own presuppositions, agendas, or biases into and onto the text.

Eph 2:8-9

(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

(9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Faith is not works, it is a gift of righteousness from God unto ALL that believe in love of truth which God reveals to ALL, so you cannot claim faith is earned:

Faith is required for salvation, so you still have man participating, even if they are doing so in response to a regenerative work of God’s Providential Persuasions.

The Bible clearly shows that faith is antithetical to works:

Rom 3:20-28

(20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

(21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

(22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

(23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

(24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

(25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

(26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

(27) Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

(28) Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.


Your attempt to separate “faith” from God’s, according to His judgment (Duet 32:4) accounting it righteousness disagrees with the scripture’s version that it is not works:


Your attempt to separate “faith” from God’s ways, according to His judgment (Duet 32:4) which is done in truth, accounting it for righteousness and what you claim about inability disagrees with the scripture’s version that it is not works, is judged and that it is accounted for righteousness:

Rom 4:2-5

(2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

(3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

(4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

(5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Not only do you deny this ability of faith but you don’t seem to acknowledge that one is justified by his faith in Jesus Christ:

Gal 2:16

(16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Gal 3:2

(2) This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


Gal 3:5-7

(5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

(6) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

(7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.


Continued: