Two Elections, First Corporate, Then Individual

[Silverhair]

Try as you may your election still eludes you. There is no such thing in the Bible as Gentiles being elect by God. Being chosen for Salvation is not the same as election. When Paul wrote Epheians 1:4 he was in a synagogue . Gentiles didn't go there they weren't allowed. In fact Paul went to jail for bringing a Gentile there. I know you know this is true.
MB

Where do you get the idea that Paul was in a synagogue in Ephesus? It says in Eph 1;1 that he wrote to those in Ephesus.

 

[MrW]

I believe Calvinism is false. There. That’s settled.

 

[agedman]

I believe Calvinism is false. There. That’s settled.

Wrong forum.

There is a forum for discussion of that sort.

 

[Silverhair]

You said the Word was chosen individually to BE the Lamb of God. Those are YOUR exact words, not mine. If He was chosen to BE the Lamb of God, then that means before He was chosen to BE the Lamb of God, He was not the Lamb of God before then. I’m trying to figure out what you are saying as it’s not adding up, IMO.

It seems to me that you just love to split hairs for no other reason that to try and look smart. Your failing.

 

[Silverhair]

Did death of Jesus pau for and atone for sinners, or for the Plan?

You do realize that the atonement was/is part of the plan of God.

 

[Silverhair]

Did you not read the Lord saying “few are chosen?”

You refer to “my theology” as if it faulty.

I suggest you start a thread on your theology and see how it goes. We may or may not be in disagreement.

However, when it comes to THIS thread, corporate election is a failure which most certainly diminishes the unsearchable depth of the Divine attributes.

For examples:
Can God not know?
Is God subject to human time?

Corporate election presents God as unknowing, and bound to human time.

So sorry I did not realize that this was an agedman's theology only site. And by the way I do not say that your theology "may be faulty" I say that "it is faulty"

 

[Silverhair]

You merely saying Ephesians 1 refers to corporate election, does not prove such is the case.

Rather, the opposite is the truth.

“All the Father gives me will come…”. That is not corporate giving by the Father.

There is not a single verse of Scripture that mentions corporate election.

Election in the Scriptures is always personal and engages both separation and purpose.

Since you brought that up how about you show us the ones that mention:

Total depravity
Unconditional election
Limited atonement
Irresistible grace
Preservation of the Saints

I did a search of my bibles and nope not there. Maybe you can find them in your version?

 

[agedman]

Since you brought that up how about you show us the ones that mention:

Total depravity
Unconditional election
Limited atonement
Irresistible grace
Preservation of the Saints

I did a search of my bibles and nope not there. Maybe you can find them in your version.

This is the wrong forum for that discussion.

Take it to the proper forum where folks discuss the points you raise.


However, should you like to engage in the discussion of the support of corporate election, prove to the readers that it does not diminish the divine attributes as I already stated.

 

[agedman]

So sorry I did not realize that this was an agedman's theology only site. And by the way I do not say that your theology "may be faulty" I say that "it is faulty"

This thread is on the merits of corporate election.

Start a thread on your theology.

This is not the thread for that discussion.

 

[kyredneck]

Corporate election presents God as unknowing, and bound to human time.

'Corporate election' ignores the PRONOUNS.

 

[Silverhair]

This is the wrong forum for that discussion.

Take it to the proper forum where folks discuss the points you raise.


However, should you like to engage in the discussion of the support of corporate election, prove to the readers that it does not diminish the divine attributes as I already stated.

Why would you think that corporate election would diminish the attributes of God? If that would make Him less God then you have a strange view of God.
And just a thought here but I do not have to prove that it does not make God less God you have to prove that it would. Your the one that says it does so prove it.
Remember God is SOVEREIGN and thus can do whatever He wants to do. Who are you to decide what He is allowed to do. That's just a bit arrogant don't you think.

 

[Silverhair]

Since you brought that up how about you show us the ones that mention:

Total depravity
Unconditional election
Limited atonement
Irresistible grace
Preservation of the Saints

I did a search of my bibles and nope not there. Maybe you can find them in your version?

Are you not the one that says that for it to be valid you have to find the words "corporate election" in the text. Well then would you not hold yourself to the same standard for all those that you do support?
You set the standard but now want to change it, why? You ask of others what you are not willing to live by. By your own standard TULIP is false.
Just so you know I am not being off topic here I am just pointing out the hypocrisy that I see in your comments.

 

[agedman]

Why would you think that corporate election would diminish the attributes of God? If that would make Him less God then you have a strange view of God.
And just a thought here but I do not have to prove that it does not make God less God you have to prove that it would. Your the one that says it does so prove it.
Remember God is SOVEREIGN and thus can do whatever He wants to do. Who are you to decide what He is allowed to do. That's just a bit arrogant don't you think.

This is one of the arguments against using corporate election!

1) Corporate election diminishes the attributes of God into not knowing exactly who will be elected "from the beginning" but that some group of unknown quantity will be elected.
2) If God is Sovereign, then God has no diminished understanding, is not time limited, does not select without specifics, and does not set out His choices without authority and knowing the parameters of every aspect of the choices.
3) In this thread, I have proven that Corporate election does most certainly diminish the divine attributes of God.

 

[agedman]

Are you not the one that says that for it to be valid you have to find the words "corporate election" in the text. Well then would you not hold yourself to the same standard for all those that you do support?
You set the standard but now want to change it, why? You ask of others what you are not willing to live by. By your own standard TULIP is false.
Just so you know I am not being off topic here I am just pointing out the hypocrisy that I see in your comments.

Are you responding to your own post?

I'm not certain what point you are trying to make?

More to the point:

It is not the idea to find the words "corporate election" in the Bible, but that the Bible does not teach that view.

For example:
Some point to the thinking that the Scriptures talk about the "body of Christ" or the "church" as a whole. And through this attempt to construct a bridge to corporate election. Typically, such also do not hold to unconditional election, but to a conditional election based on some view of a diminished Divine Attribute associated with the salvation and usually also with the eternal security.

I reject this thinking.

If God is truly Sovereign, then it follows that the Divine Attributes cannot be diminished. Therefore, when the Scriptures state, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love..." the corporate election would not allow for God to specify exactly by name who is the elect. That diminishes the Divine Attribute, and corporate election fails to resolve this basic issue.

 

[AustinC]

Are you responding to your own post?

I'm not certain what point you are trying to make?

More to the point:

It is not the idea to find the words "corporate election" in the Bible, but that the Bible does not teach that view.

For example:
Some point to the thinking that the Scriptures talk about the "body of Christ" or the "church" as a whole. And through this attempt to construct a bridge to corporate election. Typically, such also do not hold to unconditional election, but to a conditional election based on some view of a diminished Divine Attribute associated with the salvation and usually also with the eternal security.

I reject this thinking.

If God is truly Sovereign, then it follows that the Divine Attributes cannot be diminished. Therefore, when the Scriptures state, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love..." the corporate election would not allow for God to specify exactly by name who is the elect. That diminishes the Divine Attribute, and corporate election fails to resolve this basic issue.

This is correct. The op requires God to wait upon those who display faith before God could corporately elect. The op's view certainly diminishes the Divine Attribute. I am happy to see you reiterating this truth to our synergist brothers who attempt to place God into a place within their timeline of free will choice.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 130 pm EDT / 1030 am PDT

 

[Marooncat79]

Please No!!!


The last 35 or so posts were priceless

then Austin? Jumped back in but the Van vs MB was priceless

 

[Silverhair]

Are you responding to your own post?

I'm not certain what point you are trying to make?

More to the point:

It is not the idea to find the words "corporate election" in the Bible, but that the Bible does not teach that view.

For example:
Some point to the thinking that the Scriptures talk about the "body of Christ" or the "church" as a whole. And through this attempt to construct a bridge to corporate election. Typically, such also do not hold to unconditional election, but to a conditional election based on some view of a diminished Divine Attribute associated with the salvation and usually also with the eternal security.

I reject this thinking.

If God is truly Sovereign, then it follows that the Divine Attributes cannot be diminished. Therefore, when the Scriptures state, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love..." the corporate election would not allow for God to specify exactly by name who is the elect. That diminishes the Divine Attribute, and corporate election fails to resolve this basic issue.

You can make all the assertions that you want but since you are not God then I think I will let Him do as He wishes. If that is corporate election so be it.
What does surprise me is that your the one that insists that He has picked out a special group before hand, that would be corporate election, then argue against corporate election. You have to make up your mind.

I believe that God has given man the free will to accept or reject Christ Jesus and all those that accept Christ Jesus are one body, in other words we form a corporate entity.

 

[Silverhair]

This is correct. The op requires God to wait upon those who display faith before God could corporately elect. The op's view certainly diminishes the Divine Attribute. I am happy to see you reiterating this truth to our synergist brothers who attempt to place God into a place within their timeline of free will choice.

God does not elect a group He elects individuals based upon their faith in Christ Jesus. If you would just trust what the bible says and not a man made theology you would understand this.

 

[kyredneck]

He elects individuals based upon their faith in Christ Jesus.

Wrong.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1