• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Two Mass Killings in Two Days in North America

church mouse guy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I have a mental illness and hang out with mentally ill people.

In Florida if someone is suspected of being a danger to themselves or others they are "Baker Acted." This hospitalizes them for three days for an assessment. If they are determined to be dangerously mentally ill, they are given medication and taken to court to keep them until they are no longer an immediate danger. That or they can sign themselves into the hospital until they are deemed suitable for discharge.

The problem is after they stop being an immediate danger, they get released back into the world. Currently there are no laws stipulating mandatory outpatient care. Not only that, even if there were, outpatient is casual and designed for people doing pretty well.

There is no middle ground level of care between crisis in-patient and casual out-patient. That seems to be where people fall through the cracks to me. The reason I am given for why there is no middle ground care by mental health professionals is funding. They barely have enough for the current system, let alone adding something in the middle.

Just thought I would explain what seems to be going on.

Yeah, Dottie Rambo was right--"This world has been a wilderness..." Thanks for the information. It is about what I think that it is in Indiana. It all goes back to the 1960s when Kennedy thought that hospitals were obsolete. He was to busy with the women to double-check his information, apparently.
 

OnlyaSinner

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Not to diminish the pain and loss of their families, but 4 people dead is not a mass shooting by today's standards. A case of multiple homicide yes, mass shooting no.

Pedant here - I think the FBI definition of "mass murder" is 4 or more in a single incident. (Not that it matters to victims/families.)
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
People say the reason so many people with mental illness are homeless or in jail—one-third of all homeless individuals and half of all people behind bars—is because of President Reagan.

Really? What did he do? Let all of the mentally ill patients loose?

Well, yes, that’s exactly what they say he did.

Over 30 years ago, when Reagan was elected President in 1980, he discarded a law proposed by his predecessor that would have continued funding federal community mental health centers. This basically eliminated services for people struggling with mental illness.

He made similar decisions while he was the governor of California, releasing more than half of the state’s mental hospital patients and passing a law that abolished involuntary hospitalization of people struggling with mental illness. This started a national trend of de-institutionalization.

In other words, if you are struggling with mental illness, we can only help you if you ask for it.

But, wait. Isn’t one of the characteristics of severe mental illness not having an accurate sense of reality? Doesn’t that mean a person may not even realize he or she is mentally ill?

There certainly seems to be a correlation between the de-institutionalization of mental health patients in the 1970s and early 1980s and the significant number of homelessness agencies created in the mid-to-late 1980s. PATH itself was founded in 1984 in response to the significant increase in homelessness in Los Angeles.

It’s ironic that a political leader who made such sweeping decisions affecting Americans with mental health issues ultimately came face-to-face with the dangers of untreated mental illness. In 1981, President Reagan was shot by John Hinckley Jr., a man suffering from several different types of personality disorders.

Where has Hinckley been for the last 30 years? In a psychiatric hospital.
It makes me wonder just how many people living on the streets today would also be safer and better cared for in an institutional setting.

Did Reagan’s Crazy Mental Health Policies Cause Today’s Homelessness? – Poverty Insights
 

Gold Dragon

Well-Known Member
In Australia, major centres have Acute Care Teams whose job is to liase by phone or home visits with acute mental health patients that have been recently discharged after a voluntary or involuntary mental health admission or think that they will need admission. Eventually if stable they are managed by GPs.

However many do fall through the cracks especially when homelessness is involved and followup is difficult. And of course many of the patients don't want followup or are too unwell to recognize their need for followup. There are never enough staff to keep up with the client numbers so they need to prioritize their time. It is a tough but essential job and I've worked with some invaluable mental health nurses and social workers who are fantastic at their work.

The move away from institutionalization to community based psychiatric care is not just something Reagan did. This was happening worldwide in the psychiatric field at that time because of the failure of psychiatric institutions on many levels. Sure a small handful of people will still need long term psychiatric institutional care and many of them end up being our urban homeless. But a significant majority of people who are admitted for mental health are able to successfully transition back into the community in some fashion and making that transition with adequate support is vital to the recovery process.

https://kaiserfamilyfoundation.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/7684.pdf

Deinstitutionalization and After

1.5 Deinstitutionalization - Welcome and A Brief History of Madness | Coursera

http://www.justiceaction.org.au/cms/images/stories/CmpgnPDFs/deinstitutionalisation.pdf
 
Last edited:

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Similar story here to what Tom relates: Thatcher (who in so many ways was Reagan's parallel) introduced 'Care in the Community' for mental health patients, closing institutions and turfing patients out of them to be 'looked after' by a mix of family, GP and Community Nurses (of whom there were never enough; the policy was lampooned as 'Carelessly in the Community '). There's a poor taste joke these days that if you meet someone apparently talking to themselves you never know whether they are using a hands-free cell phone or being Cared For in the Community...
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
People say the reason so many people with mental illness are homeless or in jail—one-third of all homeless individuals and half of all people behind bars—is because of President Reagan.

Really? What did he do? Let all of the mentally ill patients loose?

Well, yes, that’s exactly what they say he did.

Over 30 years ago, when Reagan was elected President in 1980, he discarded a law proposed by his predecessor that would have continued funding federal community mental health centers. This basically eliminated services for people struggling with mental illness.

He made similar decisions while he was the governor of California, releasing more than half of the state’s mental hospital patients and passing a law that abolished involuntary hospitalization of people struggling with mental illness. This started a national trend of de-institutionalization.

In other words, if you are struggling with mental illness, we can only help you if you ask for it.

But, wait. Isn’t one of the characteristics of severe mental illness not having an accurate sense of reality? Doesn’t that mean a person may not even realize he or she is mentally ill?

There certainly seems to be a correlation between the de-institutionalization of mental health patients in the 1970s and early 1980s and the significant number of homelessness agencies created in the mid-to-late 1980s. PATH itself was founded in 1984 in response to the significant increase in homelessness in Los Angeles.

It’s ironic that a political leader who made such sweeping decisions affecting Americans with mental health issues ultimately came face-to-face with the dangers of untreated mental illness. In 1981, President Reagan was shot by John Hinckley Jr., a man suffering from several different types of personality disorders.

Where has Hinckley been for the last 30 years? In a psychiatric hospital.
It makes me wonder just how many people living on the streets today would also be safer and better cared for in an institutional setting.

Did Reagan’s Crazy Mental Health Policies Cause Today’s Homelessness? – Poverty Insights
If they commit crimes, put them in prison. If they don't commit crimes, leave them alone.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
If they commit crimes, put them in prison. If they don't commit crimes, leave them alone.
One of the symptoms of some serious mental illnesses is the feeling of invincibility, thinking you are perfectly sane and okay. That person is a danger to himself and others, eventually. That person needs our help NOW, not after he harms himself or others.
 

Matt Black

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Well, civil liberty is not one of your former empires strong suits.
No, we look after sick people...or used to. You do know the difference between a sentence of imprisonment and a hospital order? One is for Naughty People and the other is for Mentally Very Sick People.
 

Steven Yeadon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If they commit crimes, put them in prison. If they don't commit crimes, leave them alone.

As someone who has been through the mental healthcare system, I can say that there are two issues:

1. Without medication and therapy, some mentally ill people are very, very dangerous and will commit crime in time. Whether that is "probability crime" needs to be discussed, but for now it just seems prudent to forcefully put people into a hospital.

2. When you give a mentally ill criminal medicine and therapy they can change into an entirely new person very quickly, they are nothing like the person who committed the crime except that they share the same body. This is why we have a "not guilty by insanity or mental defect" plea.
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
One of the symptoms of some serious mental illnesses is the feeling of invincibility, thinking you are perfectly sane and okay. That person is a danger to himself and others, eventually. That person needs our help NOW, not after he harms himself or others.
In an ideal world, I agree. All I can speak for is the system in Georgia. One is in my opinion better off left alone than "helped" by that goon crew.
 

Reynolds

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
As someone who has been through the mental healthcare system, I can say that there are two issues:

1. Without medication and therapy, some mentally ill people are very, very dangerous and will commit crime in time. Whether that is "probability crime" needs to be discussed, but for now it just seems prudent to forcefully put people into a hospital.

2. When you give a mentally ill criminal medicine and therapy they can change into an entirely new person very quickly, they are nothing like the person who committed the crime except that they share the same body. This is why we have a "not guilty by insanity or mental defect" plea.
Thankfully the not guilty by reason of insanity plea almost never works in Georgia. Guilty but insane works, but does not reduce the sentence by any significant amount. Forgive me, but I have been almost killed by a crazy person who was on his meds. I will side with caution and favor incarceration.
 

Rippon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The FBI, or rather rogue elements in the FBI have been involved in most of the "mass shootings" in America. By "been involved" I mean they are behind it all.
 

Gold Dragon

Well-Known Member
‘I was like, how did he get a van?’ Inside the life of Alek Minassian, the Toronto van rampage suspect no one thought capable of murder | The Star

In the weeks since the Toronto van attack, Alek Minassian, the 25-year-old man now facing 10 countsof first-degree murder and 16 counts of attempted murder, has been cast as a symbol of toxic masculinity, a “disturbed individual attempting to exorcize private demons” and a “random loon.”

Was Minassian a true believer in the misogynist incel movement referenced in a screed posted to his Facebook account shortly before the van attack, or a vulnerable mind who fell under the influence of hateful online message boards? Or was he something else entirely?

...

As news of the attack spread and Minassian was publicly identified as the suspect, reporters unearthed a disturbing message posted to his Facebook page around the time of the attack: “Private (Recruit) Minassian Infantry 00010, wishing to speak to Sgt 4chan please. C23249161. The Incel Rebellion has already begun! We will overthrow all the Chads and Stacys! All hail the Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger!”

“Incels” are an online subculture of men who are “involuntarily celibate” and frustrated by their inability to find romantic relationships or sex. In their world, “Chads and Stacys” are people who have no issues finding sexual partners. Some incels idolize Elliot Rodger, a 22-year-old California man who killed six people and himself in 2014 after recording a YouTube video vowing “revenge against humanity,” especially the women who rejected him.

...

A Facebook spokesperson verified the post as authentic. Toronto police could not confirm whether Minassian wrote it, but a military source told the Star that the number cited — C23249161 — was his military service number. Police said they are investigating all aspects of his online activity.

...

People who call themselves incels feel “despair, depression, frustration and a loss of confidence” when they fail to have successful sexual relationships, researchers from Georgia State University concluded in a 2001 study of members of an online incel community — the majority of whom were young, white and male. Since the study, which looked at an early and somewhat more innocent community of incels, the movement has grown with internet availability and the popularity of social media, and has become increasingly extreme and hateful.

After the attack, a user on one forum popular with incels — Incels.me — changed his avatar to a picture of Minassian and wrote: “The incel revolution has begun.” A forum administrator later wrote a message saying that Minassian has never posted on Incels.me and “as far as we are concerned, no one on the forum heard of him before these latest news.” The administrator said being an incel has “no relation” to violence or misogyny, but the dark corners of the internet where incels gather are full of hateful messages and threats of violence toward women.

....

Dr. Jessica Jones, a professor of psychiatry at Queen’s University who specializes in autism spectrum disorders, said that while people on the spectrum are no more likely to commit violent crimes than anyone else, they are, generally, more vulnerable to influence.

They tend to have trouble interpreting the intent of others in conversation, along with a black-and-white thinking style that leads them to struggle with the conflicting messages we receive in day-to-day life, Jones said.

“This difficulty with social navigation and reading others — especially when we tend to say one thing, do another and mean something else — can influence individuals with ASD to seek out others who are less ambiguous in their social communication, either positive or negative,” she said.

Susceptible to isolation and social withdrawal, people with autism sometimes gravitate to the internet “for a way of connecting to others without the confusion of our ‘social puzzle’ in the real world,” Jones said.

“Unfortunately, they can also be exploited for their vulnerability in not reading the true motivation of their audience.”
 
Top