Two questions concerning the rapture

[Michael Edwards]

Hello:

I know that this topic has been visited previously on this forum, but I'd like to pose a couple of questions that I personally am studying on this issue, to the forum:

1. One consistent argument on the pre-trib rapture side is that in Matthew 24, Jesus is speaking on "Jewish" terms, so that the gathering together of the elect, does not refer to the "elect" of the church age, but to the elect at the time of Christ's return at the end of the Great Tribulation. Then, John 14:1-2 is used as a rapture text. My question is, what is less Jewish about John 14, seeing as how he is speaking to the same people, his disciples. What in these two texts, is to lead someone to distinguish Israel and the Church as it relates to the rapture?

2. In II Thess. 2, Paul begins by talking about the Day of the Lord and our gathering together unto him. The gathering seems to clearly be speaking of the rapture. In addition, Paul mentions the "Day of the Lord." If I'm not mistaken, the general pre-trib position is that the "Day of the Lord" refers to the entire period of the Great Tribulation, not just one particular day. So in answering the concerns of the Thessalonian believers at the time, Paul is addressing the fact that they seem to be getting informed that the "Day of the Lord" and the "gathering" had already taken place. Paul then goes on to say that these things (including the gathering) don't take place until AFTER the falling away (apostasy) and the man of sin is revealed (antichrist). From a plain reading of the text, for myself, Paul seems to be telling them: of course you haven't missed it yet, the apostasy of the man of sin setting himself up in the temple hasn't even taken place. If the pre-trib rapture was in view there in Paul's mind, wouldn't he simply say, "of course you haven't missed the Day of the Lord beginning and the rapture, you're still HERE! and you haven't seen others resurrected and disappearing have you?"

If anyone could utilize some Biblical exegesis to help me with this issue, I'd appreciate it greatly. For, I have seen great confusion over this doctrine. Some pre-trib supporters use things like "one taken and one left" from Matthew 24, but out the other side of the mouth and argument is that Matt 24 is Jewish and doesn't refer to the rapture. So, many supporters of the pre-trib I don't think have defended the position on solid biblical exegesis. I'd like to see some of that in regards to the two points I mentioned. It would be a tremendous encouragement for me.

Thanks!
Michael

 

[Baptist Believer]

According the Matthew 24, those who are "taken" are taken in judgment.

Christians are not gathered according to this passage. In fact, a Christian would want to be "left" according to Matthew 24.

Read it again carefully. Notice the parallel between the judgment of the flood and the "taking" of the people.

This passage does not support a secret rapture. For that matter, I don't think the Bible supports a secret rapture. The only rapture I find in the scripture is the one where we will meet the Lord in the air at His second coming -- every eye will see Him because we will rise to greet Him as He returns in victory to judge the living and the dead.

I know this may not be an encouragement to do when I point out serious flaws in your interpretation, but God's truth has a way of setting people free.

Be encouraged that you have a fresh perspective on the truth.

God bless!

 

[mountainrun]

I don't believe the judgement happens at His second coming, but at the end of the Millenium if I'm not mistaken.

What we read of in regards to similiarity of the time of Noah is that unbelievers will be taken out of the earth at His coming so that the Millenial Kingdom is populated only by believers.

Various passages I have trouble with concerning the pre trib view have to do with "the dead in Christ will rise first" which is described as occurring at the end of the tribulation, and this is only the first resurrection.
I believe that the rapture occurs after the second resurrection before the earth and heavens are destroyed and made new at the end of the millenium.
After all, He would not destroy those who love Him.

Another passage is, as pointed out earlier, that the man doomed to destruction will first set himself up in the temple, which happens halfway through the tribulation.

Sorry if I've rambled. It's late.

MR

 

[Michael Edwards]

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
According the Matthew 24, those who are "taken" are taken in judgment.

Christians are not gathered according to this passage. In fact, a Christian would want to be "left" according to Matthew 24.

Read it again carefully. Notice the parallel between the judgment of the flood and the "taking" of the people.

This passage does not support a secret rapture. For that matter, I don't think the Bible supports a secret rapture. The only rapture I find in the scripture is the one where we will meet the Lord in the air at His second coming -- every eye will see Him because we will rise to greet Him as He returns in victory to judge the living and the dead.

I know this may not be an encouragement to do when I point out serious flaws in your interpretation, but God's truth has a way of setting people free.

Be encouraged that you have a fresh perspective on the truth.

God bless!

Dear brother, you mis-read my question. My original question was in regard to the gathering of the elect as it relates to "jewishness" v. the "church," while at the same time the text of John 14:1-2 are used of the church, when he's addressing the same people. I understand that the taken is the taken in judgement. I wouldn't dispute that at all.

I, personally, do not accept a pre-trib rapture; at least not until I see someone exegetically defend and describe it. All texts that I have seen exegetically laid out, point to our rapture taking place at the coming of the LOrd and the bible only speaks of him coming one more time.

Thanks!
Michael

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Michael Edwards:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
According the Matthew 24, those who are "taken" are taken in judgment...

Dear brother, you mis-read my question... </font>[/QUOTE]Oops!

I'll place my hand over my mouth.

 

[Gavin]

Dear Michael and Baptist Believer,

Some good clear thinking in the scriptures from 2Thes 2. The Day of the Lord is the day of His wrath and judgement and the day of the glorification of His saints, both the living and the dead. Our pre-trib brethren have tried to make that Day stretch out backwards in time like taffy from the "last day" of the 70th week to cover the entire 7 years. If you are forcefully told from the pulpit that the "Day of the Lord" lasts 7 years a thousand times you will be hypnotised/brainwashed to believe it. But that doesn't make it right. A day in holy scripture is a day unless the context suggests otherwise. A word study throughout the scriptures on "day of the Lord" does not give any support for the "Day of the Lord" lasting 7 years. I know that our pre-trib brethren absolutely must that day to last 7 years. The have to make it stretch back to cover a secret rapture at the beginning of the 7 years. But they are taking a word that means a discrete event and trying to make it last for 7 long years. This has the effect of characterising the whole 70th week as the "wrath of God" because the Day of the Lord will certainly see the wrath of God. But the wrath of humanistic man does not equal the wrath of God. This is another case in which an unscriptural assertion, "wrath of God = tribulation", shouted thousands of times from pulpits, TV evangelists and "Left Behind" novels
has hypnotised the Christian masses into believing something that the Bible does not say.

The gathering of the elect in the resurrection-rapture and the judgement of the wicked must be before the Millennium. The Apostle John tells us clearly that His saints will be glorified to rule and minister with Him for one thousand years.-Rev.20:4-7 And as you correctly point out, Paul in 2Thes 2 clearly states that the Day of the Lord and our gathering together to Him out of this evil age must be after the apostasy. The "day of the Lord/Day of Christ will not occur until the blaspheming antichrist is "revealed". This Wicked one will not be revealed for who he really is until the last half of the 70th week, when the Great Tribulation occurs. The church will see this ultimate bad guy, Lucifer's god-man, the false christ before the Day of Christ, the judgement of the wicked and the gathering of the elect. The antichrist will be destroyed by the brightness of His, Christ's coming. -2Thes 2:8
This gathering of the wicked tares and gathering of the righteous, or Day of the Lord, is a post-trib event.

2Thes 2 is a scripture that has been a turning point for many pre-tribbers. I have spoken with many post-tribbers who state that it was Paul's message in 2Thes 2 that caused them to see the light and switch from pre-trib to post-trib. It is not just an intellectual matter though. It is a strait and difficult passage for all of us. It also involves a change not only in our minds but our heart and will. All 3 aspects of our soul go through a wrenching adjustment. The pre-trib to post-trib passage is primarily a matter of the heart. It is always an emotionally disturbing passage. See http://endtimepilgrim.org/lovingGod.htm It always calls for a deeper walk into blood covenant Christianity. Thst is why it is not popular with the masses and does not "sell" in the bazaars of religion today.

Blessings,

Gavin

 

[Gavin]

Dear Mountain Run,

When do you see the resurrection-rapture?

Blessings,
Gavin

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Originally posted by Gavin:
2Thes 2 is a scripture that has been a turning point for many pre-tribbers. I have spoken with many post-tribbers who state that it was Paul's message in 2Thes 2 that caused them to see the light and switch from pre-trib to post-trib.
Gavin

This passage was one of the main ones that caused me to change from pre-trib to post-trib/pre-wrath, as well. It seems like Scripture makes a whole lot more sense now that I don't have to contort it to fit the whole Darby/Scofield/Lindsey/LaHaye scenario.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Me too!!!

11 years ago, when I was a pretribber. One day, a deaf couple showed me of 2 Thess 2:1-3. I told them, "When I read and sign same time, I MUST follow and agree with God's Word."

When I read and sign same time, 2 Thess 2:3 hit me so very hard! I understood it VERY CLEAR!

2 Thess 2:1-3 caused me left pretrib camp 11 years ago.

2 Thess 2:1-3 is very clear teach us that the gathering together/day of Christ cannot come TILL we will see apostasy first and the revealed of Antichrist.

So, the doctrine of imminency is conflict with 2 Thess 2:1-3. It does not support the doctrine of imminecy.

Many Christians in Thessaolica thought they miss the gathering together at the day of Christ.

They were not rumor about tribulation, because they knew that they are already face tribulations - 1 Thess. 3:3-4, because Paul told them earlier.

So, they were rumor about the timing of the gathering together and the coming of the Lord, they thought Christ might come anytime very soon or already arrived ("at hand").

Paul told them, do not let any person deceived us, of any mean(rumors, and teaching) about the timing of Christ's return, he told them, that the gathering together shall not come till we will see apostasy first and the revealed of Antichrist.

2 Thess 2:3 is very obivously teacing of posttribulation coming of Christ.

By the way, 2 Thess 2:7 does not saying anything that the Holy Spirit will leave as rapture. It tells us, that Antichrist is now being holding back from being to be revealed till come a falling away first, then, Antichrist shall be removed from the mystery("out of the way")- verse 7 then Antichrist shall be revealed - verse 8.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Pete Richert]

Where are the dispensational brothers? Someone needs to defend the other side!

 

[Gavin]

Dear Pete,

Where are the dispensationalists? They are over at the "dispensationalism" thread. The big question over there which nobody seems to want to answer is whether or not our Father Abraham and the old testament saints of Hebrews 11 who were faithful unto death will attain the New Jerusalem, the Holy City "not made with hands". Our father Abraham went looking for that city 4,000 years ago. It is "a city whose builder and maker is God". In Rev.21 we see this city, this elect people, descending from heaven as "a bride adorned for her husband".

It seems that Clarence Larkin has boxed up the evangelical mind such that Old Testament Jewish saints or future Tribulation saints cannot find grace. Grace belongs to the "church". And they ain't the "church" so we hear. This is very very sad.

The word "church comes from the Greek word "ekklesia" meaning "called out" or "congregation. God Almighty was calling people out and congregating His people long before Pentecost took it to the gentiles and commissioned the church to preach the Gospel to the nations. But what about the saints before the so called "church age"? hat is their destiny? Will they sit at table with us and Messiah at the marrige supper of the Lamb? Will they be permitted entry into the city foursquare? Will they be allowed entry through the 12 gates of the New Jerusalem, even the royal gate, the Jewish gate of Judah? These fine saints have been "locked out" it seems. The so called "Age of Grace" is identical to the so called "Age of the Church". At least this is what dispensationalism teaches. Try to come in before 32 A.D. and Pentecost or after the 70th week opens up and you are "out" brother. Slam those pearly gates shut!

So just what is to become of these faithful believing saints of the Sacrifice Lamb? Well apparently our evangelical leaders just do not know. Rev. Darby and Clarence Larkin and Jack van Impe have not told us. In his novels Tim LaHaye has the tribulation saints ducking and weaving and cheating and lying to save their precious skins. He has put them down as escapees scurrying like rats, as mere tribulation playthings, doormats of the antichrist. What a travesty!

So I guess these Old Testament Saints of Hebrews 11 and the future Tribulation Saints of Rev. 7 and Rev. 20 are in religious limbo. They are locked up in a dispensationalist box until an answer is forthcoming and there case can be decided.

Does anyone want to answer on their behalf?

Remember. Their angels are watching.

And these saints obviously have access to the throne of God.

So be very very careful what you say.

These are blood covenant matters; matters which we in our evangelical dispensationalism know very little about.

Blessings in the promised Sacrifice Lamb,

Gavin
http://endtimepilgrim.org/bloodcove.htm