TWO QUESTIONS FOR CALVINISTS

Oh no? Who is the one slogging his guts out you or me. HaHa.

johnp. </font>[/QUOTE]No you'd be wrong again, My desire is NOT "to support my family", My desire is to live a life of leisure. MY NEED and MY WILL is to support my family. I need to support them because if I don't support them I lose them, My will is to not lose them, so I divorce my desire from my will. Having my family makes up for my not having my leisure!

 

Desire is what you do...not what you want to do. The will springs to life because of the desire.
What you want to do has been put on hold because you do not desire that as much as you desire to do what you do. What you do is follow the desires of the heart where possible and then take the lesser of the evils presented, which choice is focused on your own self. Anything contrary to this is selfrighteousness.
That is logical. Logic is a gift from God.

johnp.

 

whatever!

 

It took hours to write that where does it fail you?

johnp.

 

Oh! Congratulations on your 1000.

johnp.

 

2 Cor 1:18 But as surely as God is faithful, our message to you is not "Yes" and "No." 19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by me and Silas and Timothy, was not "Yes" and "No," but in him it has always been "Yes." 20 For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ. And so through him the "Amen" is spoken by us to the glory of God. 21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

God.

 

[surfacing]
I don't post here a whole lot. It gets old responding to the same tired arguments repeatedly, but I will make one point...

God. I know Calvinists are fond of quoting Romans 9 out of context as it ostensibly supports their concept of monergism, but lets look another passage which employs the potter and clay illustration, shall we? Here's what God told the prophet Jeremiah:

"O house of Israel, can I not to with you as this potter?", says the LORD. "Look, as the clay is in the potter's hand so are you in my hand, O house of Israel? The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. Now speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, 'Thus says the LORD: "Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way and make your ways and your doings good."'" (Jeremiah 18:6-11)

Here it is clear that how God the potter will ultimately fashion the clay is contingent on the moral choice of the "clay".

[/submerging]

 

Doubting Thomas.

Quite right old chap.

To bring a charge of misquoting scripture and not to back it up is what?

Well to misquote a famous piece of scripture, " RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Of course your answer to that is no.

Without reading the chapter it I shall take a swing at it.
PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
How can any nation know the Lord's mind unless He tells them which is a thing He says He didn't.

What are you saying, that the Israelites have a choice to make. That is indisputable. Did they make the choice?
You bring this verse along and dismiss the Romans passage because the Romans passage is clear and unambiguos. Why don't you explain what the Romans passage means?

johnp.

 

I never accused anyone of "misquoting Scripture". I did say the Calvinists quote Romans 9 "out of context".
(But perhaps "interpret out of context" would have been more correct)

(Obviously)

No, I am not "dismissing" the Romans passage. I bring this passage up (from Jeremiah) to show that just because Romans 9 says God does as He wishes with the clay, it doesn't necessarily mean that His wishes do not take into account the moral choice of His creatures as the Jeremiah passage does clearly and unambiguosly teach.

 

Ninevah was not made up of Israelites (or the house of Jacob,) and yet they were able to repent of their sins, and God did not send the punishment that He had earlier said would befall them.

 

Thanks Johp

Your description "fails me" because I am compelled to do the right things for my family because that is my will to do the right thing. My desire however remains to do the selfish thing, which is to spend the day in leisure!

Because I am currently at work, I am doing my will, and not my desire! My desire is to spend the day with my family in some leisurely activity.

 

Hello Doubting Thomas.

So you did forgive me you are correct.

(Obviously) Maybe so but why?

Your answer;
No, I am not "dismissing" the Romans passage. I bring this passage up (from Jeremiah) to show that just because Romans 9 says God does as He wishes with the clay, it doesn't necessarily mean that His wishes do not take into account the moral choice of His creatures as the Jeremiah passage does clearly and unambiguosly teach
That is an incorrect understanding because the passage says, RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" Is unambiguous enough for me.
Why would this argument be used if the reason God blamed them was because they decided not for God?That makes no sense.

johnp.

 

Hello ScottEmerson.

First of all they were only able to repent after Jonah preached to them is that not so? Yes? Faith comes by hearing and not all get to hear or do you believe otherwise?
Secondly, it is wrong to look at this in the way that you are doing because all those that come to faith are only ever true Israelites. So to say that Ninevah was not made up of Israelites is a false statement because, GAL 3:6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you." 9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
RO 9:6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."

Faith comes by hearing and not all get to hear or do you believe otherwise.
PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.

If you don't agree to my interpretation then how do you reconcile Ps 147 and Ninevah?

johnp.

 

whatever! </font>[/QUOTE]Yes?

 

My apology, whatever, I was copping an attitude with Johnp, not calling you. But you are welcome to chime in.

 

I agree that God determined that Adam would sin, and if He had not wanted sin to enter creation it would not have. I still think saying that He is the Author of sin is going too far, though. I see Romans 11:32 the way John Gill did:

 

I know. I was just making a silly joke.

 

Why didn't you leave, then, and spend some time with your family?

 

To say that God determined Adam would sin is to say that God created his creation with a plan for sin to enter the world so that he could destroy the world with the flood and start over agan, determining that sin would happen again and that he would have to send his Son to die for the sins of the world. Is that not the same as saying that God is the author of sin?

I believe God knew that Adam would sin, but it didn't change the fact that Adam had a free will, because God in his awesome omniscience knew what would happen had Adam choose not to sin.

 

I say you could have chosen otherwise, and most certainly would have, had you wanted to.