Two types of Yayin/Wine in Bible Times?

[evangelist6589]

Prohibitionists argue for two types of wine/Yayin in Bible times one being fermented and the other not. Prohibitionists believe that Christians need to always avoid alcohol as they are sinful. Such types may also believe that consuming mouthwash with alcohol is sinful and is to be avoided. There seems to be little evidence in the scripture, or in classical antiquity for such a view, yet it was the view I often heard at BJU and what many Prohibitionists believe. Some whom write books argue from various passages that are in favor of wine to be the unfermented kind, and the scriptures that condemn alcohol to be the fermented kind. However those that hold to such a view have overlooked the following verses that both support and condemn alcohol. 1 Sam 1:14,24 25:18, 37; Joel 1:5, 10.

Lets look at a few of these passages together.

Joel 1:5 (NASB)
Awake, drunkards, and weep;
And wail, all you wine drinkers,
On account of the sweet wine
That is cut off from your mouth.

10 (NASB)
The field is ruined,
The land mourns;
For the grain is ruined,
The new wine dries up,
Fresh oil fails.

1 Sam 25:18
Then Abigail hurried and took two hundred loaves of bread and two jugs of wine and five sheep already prepared and five measures of roasted grain and a hundred clusters of raisins and two hundred cakes of figs, and loaded them on donkeys.

If one thinks that drinking a beverage is a sin then to them it is one, but I being a former Prohibitionist have seen the light in recent years and just can't find enough scripture to condemn the drinking of wine if handled correctly. Arguments from bad examples are illogical as explained in this syllogism.

1. Scripture condemns drunkenness
2. Drinking alcohol can lead to drunkenness
3. Therefore scripture condemns all alcohol drinking.

1. Scripture condemns gluttony
2. Eating food can lead to gluttony
3. Therefore scripture condemns all food consumption.

Quote from God gave wine by Gentry

 

[Dr. Bob]

People who are convinced that the biblical principle of TEMPERANCE really means ABSTINENCE will not be swayed by logic. They've already forsaken the meaning of language and hewed out cisterns, broken cisterns, that hold no water.

But you can TRY to have another thread on the subject. Just not giving it much hope . . :BangHead:

 

[evangelist6589]

People who are convinced that the biblical principle of TEMPERANCE really means ABSTINENCE will not be swayed by logic. They've already forsaken the meaning of language and hewed out cisterns, broken cisterns, that hold no water.

But you can TRY to have another thread on the subject. Just not giving it much hope . . :BangHead:

I am not following. Are you saying that those that believe in total abstinence do so because of tradition, or a emotional argument kind of like the KJVO position? If true then you are correct as its impossible to persuade them with evidences.

 

[preacher4truth]

People who are convinced that the biblical principle of TEMPERANCE really means ABSTINENCE will not be swayed by logic. They've already forsaken the meaning of language and hewed out cisterns, broken cisterns, that hold no water.

But you can TRY to have another thread on the subject. Just not giving it much hope . . :BangHead:

True. But they won't be swayed by Scripture itself either. Once tradition becomes a persons 'righteousness' and/or 'holiness', then the Word is rejected and supplanted by this system. I am NOT saying these things are their ONLY righteousness/holiness, but they see it as a secondary source in their man made rites.

Of course we saw this in the Pharisaism of Christ's day, yet it has remained to this day in neo-Pharisaism as they still continue to teach for doctrine the commandments of men. :BangHead: :type:

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

As for me.....

I drink ALL I WANT. I just don't really WANT any anymore. Praise God, that is one "want" that God graciously took away from me when He redeemed me. I know how much destruction beverage alcohol caused within my own family so I have nearly no patience with anybody who wants to argue in favor of what amounts to liquid snake-handling for the sake of a "liberty" that is generally offensive to most humble believers. I guess God will set us all straight when we stand before Him. This has NOTHING to do with being saved in the first place or being "more/less" saved at all. Neither will you be a better or worse Christian. We just all need to be certain that what we are doing AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED is pleasing to the Lord and a good testimony toward those WHO ARE WITHOUT. This is not about legalism. It is ALL about dying to yourself and the flesh and living in a way that honors God. Personally, I can't do that with a glass of beer or wine in one hand and a cigarette in the other......But that is just me. I just think that we all should measure everything in light of 1 Corinthians 10:31-33. Pay particular attention to verses 32 & 33. They are usually IGNORED by those who quote this passage. We really DO live in glass houses!

Bro.Greg

 

[preacher4truth]

I drink ALL I WANT. I just don't really WANT any anymore.

Drink? You mean to drunkeness or a little wine or alcohol responsibly? There's a big difference. Keep in mind Jesus drank wine, and it wasn't grape juice.

Praise God, that is one "want" that God graciously took away from me when He redeemed me.

I see, so it was abuse of alcohol, not Scriptural moderation.

I know how much destruction beverage alcohol caused within my own family so I have nearly no patience with anybody who wants to argue in favor of what amounts to liquid snake-handling for the sake of a "liberty" that is generally offensive to most humble believers.

Yep. More abuse above. My brother and I had an alcoholic Dad. I will consume alcohol responsibly today with no problem. Some in my church do the same. In fact, I can enjoy a beer with many of them. :thumbsup:

I guess God will set us all straight when we stand before Him.

Yes, what you mean is He will set all of us straight who don't buy into your stance, which is in fact an unbiblical stance. Yes, we get it.

This has NOTHING to do with being saved in the first place or being "more/less" saved at all. Neither will you be a better or worse Christian. We just all need to be certain that what we are doing AFTER WE HAVE BEEN SAVED is pleasing to the Lord and a good testimony toward those WHO ARE WITHOUT. This is not about legalism. It is ALL about dying to yourself and the flesh and living in a way that honors God. Personally, I can't do that with a glass of beer or wine in one hand and a cigarette in the other......But that is just me. I just think that we all should measure everything in light of 1 Corinthians 10:31-33. Pay particular attention to verses 32 & 33. They are usually IGNORED by those who quote this passage. We really DO live in glass houses!

You still assume moderation means drunkeness and you have to add a smoke in as a kicker. These are added when a stance is problematic and not Scriptural, but according to the commandments of men. These doctines of men are typically celebrated and portrayed in a service among those who do not partake or enjoy said Biblical liberty in order to garner 'amens' from those of the same ilk, and to garner nice love offerings (outside speakers brought in to rally the troops), typically in an KJVO and IFB setting.

Been there, done that. What a sad, pharisaical mess that is, and I am so glad to be set free from that nonsense.

 

[JonC]

While I don’t believe alcohol to be forbidden in the Bible, there are dangers to which we must remain aware – particularly in our age of indulgence. Some Christians have wrestled with alcohol in the past, overcame, but may be led back to the bottle by another’s instance that it is alright to drink. Some give in to peer-pressure. In other words, when we become dogmatic about our freedom to drink we can lead others (to whom it may be a sin) into a dangerous situation. In this case, it would be just as dangerous as assuming a legalistic stance against alcohol. (What we do, do in love and for the glory of God).

 

[evangelist6589]

While I don’t believe alcohol to be forbidden in the Bible, there are dangers to which we must remain aware – particularly in our age of indulgence. Some Christians have wrestled with alcohol in the past, overcame, but may be led back to the bottle by another’s instance that it is alright to drink. Some give in to peer-pressure. In other words, when we become dogmatic about our freedom to drink we can lead others (to whom it may be a sin) into a dangerous situation. In this case, it would be just as dangerous as assuming a legalistic stance against alcohol. (What we do, do in love and for the glory of God).

Thats why when I drink I do so in private or at a social gathering and I dont boast about it on FB.

 

[quantumfaith]

While I don’t believe alcohol to be forbidden in the Bible, there are dangers to which we must remain aware – particularly in our age of indulgence. Some Christians have wrestled with alcohol in the past, overcame, but may be led back to the bottle by another’s instance that it is alright to drink. Some give in to peer-pressure. In other words, when we become dogmatic about our freedom to drink we can lead others (to whom it may be a sin) into a dangerous situation. In this case, it would be just as dangerous as assuming a legalistic stance against alcohol. (What we do, do in love and for the glory of God).

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[InTheLight]

Thats why when I drink I do so in private or at a social gathering and I dont boast about it on FB.

Just here on BB!

 

[Luke2427]

Drink? You mean to drunkeness or a little wine or alcohol responsibly? There's a big difference. Keep in mind Jesus drank wine, and it wasn't grape juice.




I see, so it was abuse of alcohol, not Scriptural moderation.



Yep. More abuse above. My brother and I had an alcoholic Dad. I will consume alcohol responsibly today with no problem. Some in my church do the same. In fact, I can enjoy a beer with many of them. :thumbsup:




Yes, what you mean is He will set all of us straight who don't buy into your stance, which is in fact an unbiblical stance. Yes, we get it.




You still assume moderation means drunkeness and you have to add a smoke in as a kicker. These are added when a stance is problematic and not Scriptural, but according to the commandments of men. These doctines of men are typically celebrated and portrayed in a service among those who do not partake or enjoy said Biblical liberty in order to garner 'amens' from those of the same ilk, and to garner nice love offerings (outside speakers brought in to rally the troops), typically in an KJVO and IFB setting.

Been there, done that. What a sad, pharisaical mess that is, and I am so glad to be set free from that nonsense.

Yes, what he said.

I was going to rip that nonsense to shreds like it deserves to be, but p4t did a fine job and saved me from the effort.

Thanks.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

There is none so pious as a sinner who has "quit sinning."

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Amazing...!

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths many professing Christians will go to justify their continuation of the practices they had BEFORE their salvation in order to maintain their level of comfort or their own "natural"passions and desires. I guess the "stuck pig" squeals the loudest. It would be ludicrous for me to try to live a life proclaiming my faith in Christ before my lost family and friends while DOING the same things in practice that they do as a matter of course. (I KNOW because I TRIED it!)Early on in my Christian life (30plus years ago) I actually tried that on my brother and sister-in-law and others and the result was that I was branded by them as a HYPOCRITE. They all remain lost to this day. I am saddened by the level and depth of deception that is displayed by many on this forum. It is rampant among many in this selfish, narcissistic day in which we live. I know these comments will be ripped to shreds by certain posters here but our lives are on display before our Lord and in front of a lost world that expects something higher out of us who name the Name of Christ. And in reference to the last post...I WISH I could quit sinning...cause I'd be in Heaven...a place where I long to be. That's the only place where I will ever realize any true piety.

Bro. Greg

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths many professing Christians will go to justify their continuation of the practices they had BEFORE their salvation in order to maintain their level of comfort or their own "natural"passions and desires. I guess the "stuck pig" squeals the loudest. It would be ludicrous for me to try to live a life proclaiming my faith in Christ before my lost family and friends while DOING the same things in practice that they do as a matter of course. (I KNOW because I TRIED it!)Early on in my Christian life (30plus years ago) I actually tried that on my brother and sister-in-law and others and the result was that I was branded by them as a HYPOCRITE. They all remain lost to this day. I am saddened by the level and depth of deception that is displayed by many on this forum. It is rampant among many in this selfish, narcissistic day in which we live. I know these comments will be ripped to shreds by certain posters here but our lives are on display before our Lord and in front of a lost world that expects something higher out of us who name the Name of Christ. And in reference to the last post...I WISH I could quit sinning...cause I'd be in Heaven...a place where I long to be. That's the only place where I will ever realize any true piety.

Bro. Greg

I've read through this three times, and I still don't know where you stand on whether or not the Bible speaks of alcoholic wine or not, which is, after all, what the thread is about. I suspect your position, but know it? Not at all.

 

[Luke2427]

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths many professing Christians will go to justify their continuation of the practices they had BEFORE their salvation in order to maintain their level of comfort or their own "natural"passions and desires. I guess the "stuck pig" squeals the loudest. It would be ludicrous for me to try to live a life proclaiming my faith in Christ before my lost family and friends while DOING the same things in practice that they do as a matter of course. (I KNOW because I TRIED it!)Early on in my Christian life (30plus years ago) I actually tried that on my brother and sister-in-law and others and the result was that I was branded by them as a HYPOCRITE. They all remain lost to this day. I am saddened by the level and depth of deception that is displayed by many on this forum. It is rampant among many in this selfish, narcissistic day in which we live. I know these comments will be ripped to shreds by certain posters here but our lives are on display before our Lord and in front of a lost world that expects something higher out of us who name the Name of Christ. And in reference to the last post...I WISH I could quit sinning...cause I'd be in Heaven...a place where I long to be. That's the only place where I will ever realize any true piety.

Bro. Greg

You think with your emotions not your mind.

All of this is just emotional blathering.

It has no basis in the Bible- which is what SHOULD matter to you.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

You think with your emotions not your mind.

All of this is just emotional blathering.

It has no basis in the Bible- which is what SHOULD matter to you.

And you are trying to sell your opinion as the truth. I will acknowledge your right to speak your mind while at the same time maintaining the same for myself. I still maintain that if you NEVER take the first drink of alcohol you will never have to fear getting "bit" by it. For the record, from what I have seen and read over the years, I just don't believe that the "wine" that Christ drank was alcoholic...or at the least, if the fermentation process HAD begun it had not progressed to the point where there was much alcohol present. "New" wine is the unfermented fruit of the vine....grape juice. Now if you want to sit down with me and enjoy THAT...I'll be happy to join you in a refreshing glass of grape juice anytime. I don't plan on drinking any of the fermented stuff. Do as you please....I know you will anyway.

Bro.Greg

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

"New" wine is the unfermented fruit of the vine....grape juice.

Greg, can you please show support for this biblically? Thanks.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

One Other Thing.....

You think with your emotions not your mind.

All of this is just emotional blathering.

It has no basis in the Bible- which is what SHOULD matter to you.

The Bible, God's Word and HIS Opinion on how we should live our lives is first and foremost ALL THAT REALLY MATTERS. I believe what I believe about drinking BECAUSE of what the Bible teaches...not in opposition to it. I have seen NNE on this forum or anywhere else make a solid, contextually sound case IN FAVOR of the consumption of alcoholic beverages. Besides...if we are to "avoid all appearance of evil", we have to avoid giving the $$$$ resources God provides us to the ungody alcoholic beverage industry. If you can say they are a godly bunch (with a straight face)after seeing the nature of their advertising on TV and elsewhere then you have to be willfully ignorant. You might as well believe we came from monkeys or some kind of primordial ooze.(but that is another argument altogether) (God's Word has plenty to say about THAT too). Good day sir.

Bro.Greg

 

[Luke2427]

And you are trying to sell your opinion as the truth. I will acknowledge your right to speak your mind while at the same time maintaining the same for myself. I still maintain that if you NEVER take the first drink of alcohol you will never have to fear getting "bit" by it.

Yes, and if you never eat your first cheese burger then you never take the risk of getting "bit" by it.

And for the record cholesterol is a bigger killer of Americans than alcohol.

Greg, your arguments are hollow.

This argument: if you never do A then you will never be destroyed by A... is ignorant. It cannot be applied consistently.

If you never touch a gun then you will never accidentally shoot yourself or someone.

Do you not SEE... DO YOU NOT SEE... how HOLLOW that line of REASONING is!?!?!?!?!?!

Surely, you are intelligent enough to say at this point, "OK, well maybe that line of reasoning is flawed."

Surely you are!!!!!

For the record, from what I have seen and read over the years, I just don't believe that the "wine" that Christ drank was alcoholic...or at the least, if the fermentation process HAD begun it had not progressed to the point where there was much alcohol present.

Well, it was. If you'd stop reading backwards SOTL type fundy literature and read scholarly articles you'd know better.

God made the wine which makes merry the heart of man.

God literally TOLD his people in one place to go and buy "STRONG DRINK" and come and rejoice before him.

I am telling you Greg, that you are clining to fundy doctrine not the Bible.

I know you THINK they are one and the same but I PROMISE you what fundies believe and what the Bible ACTUALLY TEACHES are two VERY different things.

I used to be a firebreathing fundamentalist. My favorite preacher of all time during those day was Billy Sunday.

But, brother, I was dumb. I was duped by the movement I got saved in.

The moment I started being willing to consider that my fundy doctreins MAY, MAY, MAY POSSIBLY not be right was the moment I began to believe the BIBLE.

You need to do that. You really, really, really need to do that.

I know you are sincere. I do not doubt that for a minute. But you are sincerely wrong. I promise.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Nope...

Greg, can you please show support for this biblically? Thanks.

I don't have the time to do what you can do yourself by simply Googling the subject. I'm not trying to blow you off about this. I HAVE read numerous sources over the years (none of which I now have in my possession)
and the sources I read were more than enough for me to conclude what I believe on this subject. There are many sources, PRO and CON available. They are readily and easily available to any and all. Google "Wine in the Bible"....you probably DON'T have enough time in a 24 hour day to read and absorb everything you are likely to have appear before your eyes. The one thing I would recommend is, that IF you are truly seeking TRUTH and God's way in the matter, make sure you BATHE your inquiry in sincere PRAYER brother. Seek Him...He'll take care of the rest.

Bro.Greg