Two types of Yayin/Wine in Bible Times?

[evangelist6589]

The Bible, God's Word and HIS Opinion on how we should live our lives is first and foremost ALL THAT REALLY MATTERS. I believe what I believe about drinking BECAUSE of what the Bible teaches...not in opposition to it. I have seen NNE on this forum or anywhere else make a solid, contextually sound case IN FAVOR of the consumption of alcoholic beverages. Besides...if we are to "avoid all appearance of evil", we have to avoid giving the $$$$ resources God provides us to the ungody alcoholic beverage industry. If you can say they are a godly bunch (with a straight face)after seeing the nature of their advertising on TV and elsewhere then you have to be willfully ignorant. You might as well believe we came from monkeys or some kind of primordial ooze.(but that is another argument altogether) (God's Word has plenty to say about THAT too). Good day sir.

Bro.Greg

Thats because you do not and are not open to Biblical Exegesis. You read the Bible and read your traditions right into them. If you are serious about what the Bible says, then start reading the book God Gave Wine as I am. I am on page 45 and its a very informative read.

 

[Jerome]

Seminary President Albert Mohler, preaching on alcohol, rebukes the faulty assumptions and immaturity of you 'Baptist booze boosters':

SBTS Theology Forum

Jesus turned the water into wine, but the word wine, when you find it, especially in the New Testament, does not mean, what we probably think it means.

We've all seen some of the websites and the weblogs. . . .Let me tell you that I find a great deal of immaturity reflected there. It's all of the sudden like we have a young generation trying to say, "Hey we are so much smarter than our parents, we are so much more mature and more liberated, we can enjoy these things, and now I'm going to recommend my favorite beer and my favorite wine to all of my friends.' And it's, frankly, I think it's sad, immature

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Mohler's wrong. The word translated "wine" all 39 times in the New Testament, is the Greek oinos and most assuredly means alcoholic wine.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Luke..please get this....

Yes, and if you never eat your first cheese burger then you never take the risk of getting "bit" by it.

And for the record cholesterol is a bigger killer of Americans than alcohol.

Greg, your arguments are hollow.

This argument: if you never do A then you will never be destroyed by A... is ignorant. It cannot be applied consistently.

If you never touch a gun then you will never accidentally shoot yourself or someone.

Do you not SEE... DO YOU NOT SEE... how HOLLOW that line of REASONING is!?!?!?!?!?!

Surely, you are intelligent enough to say at this point, "OK, well maybe that line of reasoning is flawed."

Surely you are!!!!!




Well, it was. If you'd stop reading backwards SOTL type fundy literature and read scholarly articles you'd know better.

God made the wine which makes merry the heart of man.

God literally TOLD his people in one place to go and buy "STRONG DRINK" and come and rejoice before him.

I am telling you Greg, that you are clining to fundy doctrine not the Bible.

I know you THINK they are one and the same but I PROMISE you what fundies believe and what the Bible ACTUALLY TEACHES are two VERY different things.

I used to be a firebreathing fundamentalist. My favorite preacher of all time during those day was Billy Sunday.

But, brother, I was dumb. I was duped by the movement I got saved in.

The moment I started being willing to consider that my fundy doctreins MAY, MAY, MAY POSSIBLY not be right was the moment I began to believe the BIBLE.

You need to do that. You really, really, really need to do that.

I know you are sincere. I do not doubt that for a minute. But you are sincerely wrong. I promise.

Luke..Brother...I mean you no ill will or disrespect. I don't talk much about my past and won't go into much detail here. The Lord knows EVERYTHING. But just know this...there was a time about ten years AFTER I got saved when I did TURN AWAY from the things that I had been taught in the IFB churches I was involved in. ( Honestly it all happened after a bad marriage and my 1st wife leaving and divorcing me) When that happened, I drifted right back into the wicked lifestyle that I had lived before I was saved in 1977. I wound up wasting nearly 18 years away from the Lord going my own fruitless way seeking some kind of "happiness" that I knew would never come apart from Christ. I QUESTIONED everything there was to question. The only thing that made any sense was "REPENT". But I persisted in my rebellion and in the process went through another bad marriage, much moral wickedness, and saw both my precious sons reject the "faith" that I now live by. Sin has a HIGH COST. The only thing I can say is that, praise God, He is merciful, loving and forgiving...and while I did give up and "quit" on Him...He never quit on me. Hopefully...maybe in the course of time He may mercifully "restore what the cankerworm hath eaten" and save my sons. They had to endure my drinking, smoking, carousing, and well...SIN...when I should have been rearing them in the fear and admonition of the Lord. I think it is nothing less than the fear and wisdom of God to flee from the things of the flesh and too many (or any) entanglements with this world. We should live as CLOSE TO Titus 2:11 - 15 as we possibly can. I'm not gonna argue this point any further here...I'm just going to continue on the path I know to be true and right in His sight. By the way...I attend an SBC fellowship these days....but I will say that I do consider myself to be a Baptistic Fundamentalist/Biblicist....just for the record.

Bro.Greg

 

[Luke2427]

Luke..Brother...I mean you no ill will or disrespect. I don't talk much about my past and won't go into much detail here. The Lord knows EVERYTHING. But just know this...there was a time about ten years AFTER I got saved when I did TURN AWAY from the things that I had been taught in the IFB churches I was involved in. ( Honestly it all happened after a bad marriage and my 1st wife leaving and divorcing me) When that happened, I drifted right back into the wicked lifestyle that I had lived before I was saved in 1977. I wound up wasting nearly 18 years away from the Lord going my own fruitless way seeking some kind of "happiness" that I knew would never come apart from Christ. I QUESTIONED everything there was to question. The only thing that made any sense was "REPENT". But I persisted in my rebellion and in the process went through another bad marriage, much moral wickedness, and saw both my precious sons reject the "faith" that I now live by. Sin has a HIGH COST. The only thing I can say is that, praise God, He is merciful, loving and forgiving...and while I did give up and "quit" on Him...He never quit on me. Hopefully...maybe in the course of time He may mercifully "restore what the cankerworm hath eaten" and save my sons. They had to endure my drinking, smoking, carousing, and well...SIN...when I should have been rearing them in the fear and admonition of the Lord. I think it is nothing less than the fear and wisdom of God to flee from the things of the flesh and too many (or any) entanglements with this world. We should live as CLOSE TO Titus 2:11 - 15 as we possibly can. I'm not gonna argue this point any further here...I'm just going to continue on the path I know to be true and right in His sight. By the way...I attend an SBC fellowship these days....but I will say that I do consider myself to be a Baptistic Fundamentalist/Biblicist....just for the record.

Bro.Greg

Greg, you're retreating from the discussion because you know if you stay we are going to completely undermine your arguments and then you are not going to be able to justify why you advocate for these standards of yours.

As long as you retreat, you will never get the truth.

Your primary mistake is conflation. Let me provide a definition of that term:

to combine two or more separate things, especially pieces of text, to form a whole:

You conflate moderation with drunkenness.

You conflate liberty with danger.

You conflate liberty with sin.

The other thing you do is make false assumptions.

You assume that moderate drinking leads to alcoholism. The fact is that hundreds of millions of people in this world drink and are not drunkards. Whole NATIONS drink beer and wine like we drink tea and they function extremely well and actually have less alcoholics than we do.

Your assumptions are simplistic and wrong. This is what fundamentalists do. They have to oversimplify everything. They care more about being able to see things as black and white and crystal clear than they do about TRUTH which is often extremely complex.

I know of dozens of men who drink weekly, many daily who never get drunk and are raising or have raised straight A students, have been soul winners, church builders, money makers and wonderful husbands.

In your world, your very limited world, your very isolated fundamentalist world, these people do not exist. There are fundamentalists and there are drunkards.

But in the REAL world, that is not the case- at all.

In the REAL world THE WORD OF GOD says to go and buy strong drink and come and rejoice before the Lord.

There is this man-made world fundies have made people to believe in and there is the real world.

The real world, God's world that he is taking through Gospel every day, is where I would like to see you live.

 

[Luke2427]

Seminary President Albert Mohler, preaching on alcohol, rebukes the faulty assumptions and immaturity of you 'Baptist booze boosters':

SBTS Theology Forum

The first quote does not have Mohler saying that the wine Jesus created is not fermented.

The second quote just has Mohler saying that we ought not swing the pendulum too far the other way and advocate drunkenness.

 

[evangelist6589]

Greg, you're retreating from the discussion because you know if you stay we are going to completely undermine your arguments and then you are not going to be able to justify why you advocate for these standards of yours.

As long as you retreat, you will never get the truth.

Your primary mistake is conflation. Let me provide a definition of that term:

to combine two or more separate things, especially pieces of text, to form a whole:

You conflate moderation with drunkenness.

You conflate liberty with danger.

You conflate liberty with sin.

The other thing you do is make false assumptions.

You assume that moderate drinking leads to alcoholism. The fact is that hundreds of millions of people in this world drink and are not drunkards. Whole NATIONS drink beer and wine like we drink tea and they function extremely well and actually have less alcoholics than we do.

Your assumptions are simplistic and wrong. This is what fundamentalists do. They have to oversimplify everything. They care more about being able to see things as black and white and crystal clear than they do about TRUTH which is often extremely complex.

I know of dozens of men who drink weekly, many daily who never get drunk and are raising or have raised straight A students, have been soul winners, church builders, money makers and wonderful husbands.

In your world, your very limited world, your very isolated fundamentalist world, these people do not exist. There are fundamentalists and there are drunkards.

But in the REAL world, that is not the case- at all.

In the REAL world THE WORD OF GOD says to go and buy strong drink and come and rejoice before the Lord.

There is this man-made world fundies have made people to believe in and there is the real world.

The real world, God's world that he is taking through Gospel every day, is where I would like to see you live.

I second what you say. Having lived and worked at BJU for two years they often see things as Black & White. There are Fundamentalist and there are alcoholics, and they could never see nor explain the many that can drink and not get drunk. My parents, and myself are examples and how they would answer these challenged to their logic was to "ignore" the arguments, or explain them away. They would say something like "millions get drunk on beer and Wine" and therefore we should avoid the sin of drinking it." They would also say that my parents and myself will eventually get drunk and fall into sin. This has yet to happen by the way.

 

[annsni]

Interestingly, the Bible is then in error. If "new wine" is grape juice, then how could anyone think that you can get drunk on it? We read in Acts 2

" And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”

But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. "

 

[evangelist6589]

Interestingly, the Bible is then in error. If "new wine" is grape juice, then how could anyone think that you can get drunk on it? We read in Acts 2

" And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”

But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. "

I do not know how to answer this question and will leave it to Luke for he knows better.

 

[Luke2427]

Interestingly, the Bible is then in error. If "new wine" is grape juice, then how could anyone think that you can get drunk on it? We read in Acts 2

" And all were amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” But others mocking said, “They are filled with new wine.”

But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day. "

Yes, but we are trying to convince people with facts who do not care about facts. They only care what their favorite preachers say, or what grandma told them or what they grew up believing. they are not ABOUT to let facts get in the way of THAT!!

 

[The Biblicist]

The whole idea and the arguments used to teach the myth of "unfermented wine" were taken from Dr. F.R. Lees and in the Temperance Bible Commentary in the 19th century and then quoted by men like William Patton as historical fact.

However, another Greek classical Scholar who was a "teetotaler" A.M. Wilson whose expertise was in classical Greek literature could not toterate the out right lying, perversion and misquotations used by Lees and the Temperance Bible Commentary and wrote his classic book "Wines of the Bible" in 1877.

Wilson took every quotation used by Lees and the Temperance Bible Commentary and simply placed it back in its context for the readers to see for themselves if any of these quotations used to teach such an idea were true the context they were plucked from demonstrating clearly they taught no such thing in context. C.H. Spurgeon called the book irrefutable and to this day no grape juicer has dared respond to it simply because they cannot as Mason provides both the text before and after every quotation used by grape juicers to teach the myth of unfermented wines.

When I was in college I personally researched the quotations used by Patton. I had my college library, the libraries of Lexington Theological Seminary and the University of Kentucky at my disposal. Every single quotation I researched confirmed Mason's expertise and conclusions.

Amazingly, even the most dimwitted person should be able to see through the quotation Patton, Lee's and the Temperance Bible commentary (and those who quote these sources) took from Ulyses and the Cyclops to be rediculous. They quote the Cyclops asking for more of that "sweet" black wine attempting to prove it had to be grapejuice or a condensed unfermented product of the grape when if they would read the context it was that same "sweet" black wine that got the Cyclops drunk. Surely no one could believe that the grapejuice fermented to alchohol in a matter of a few minutes?????????

Emotion, drinking problems and just poor research and Bible study is the crux of those who assert the myth of "unfermented" wines in the Bible.

 

[saturneptune]

Interestingly, the Bible is then in error. If "new wine" is grape juice, then how could anyone think that you can get drunk on it? We read in Acts 2

They were really drinking vodka. The unfermented grape juice was a chaser.