Types of Calvinists

1. I'm not sure at the moment how creation fits in to your scheme of relating the order of decrees to the 5 points. Perhaps someone else could enlighten us on that.

2. The provision for salvation is the atonement.

3. The call is irresistable grace.

4. Amyrauldianism - I'm not an expert on Amyrauld, but I think that Amyrauldianism totally rejects limited atonement and embraces universal atonement. Sufficiency is a doctrine of pure Calvinism - that is, calvinism teaches that the blood of Christ is completely sufficient in power to save an infinite number of sinners.

5. I don't think Arminians use the term "total" depravity, but if they do, it certainly does not mean the same thing that a cavlinist intends by "total". The Arminian does not believe that the Adamic corruption reaches into the soul (heart) of man, that he is morally, but not spiritually, corrupt. Calvinism maintains that man is corrupted in all features - in body, in heart, in spirit - and is therefore incapable of godliness in works or faith.

 

More on sufficiency - this argument reveals what I believe is the true weakness of limited atonement. There's nothing wrong with the doctrine, it's just presented in the wrong light. When we talk of limited atonement, we are expressing the negative effect of the true doctrine of particular, or definite, atonement. The doctrine correctly stated is that Christ died to purchase forgiveness of sins for the elect, making their salvation sure. As a consequence, He could not have died for the non-elect, for their salvation is never sure. When we look at the doctrine in the negative light of what the atonement does NOT do, we are forced into making the atonement sufficient for all and efficient (or, as I prefer, effective) for the elect only. This is all true, but these are secondary issues related to the doctrine of definite atonement, not the doctrine itself.

 

As someone said earlier, it should be TUPIP, or my preference - TUDIP - but what is a TUPIP or a TUDIP?

 

Dr. Fuss,

The information you have gotten thus far is useful but if you are asking the types of questions you are asking I am going to assume you are not ready for the order of the decrees, ie infra, supra, sub, or otherwise and to be honest with you those decrees are found in the mind of God and not proven biblically. Therefore they are philosophical in nature and speculative at best.

Let me address in layman’s terms each of your questions.

Your first question was, “Are there generally agreed upon definitions for each type of Calvinists?”
Not to be cute, but the answer is yes and no. Yes there are terms for each but are they generally not agreed upon. In general the terms are as you have laid them out: 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 pointer (as reformedbeliever classified himself as a 5 pointer).

You next question was, “Do all 4-point Calvinists believe the same 4 points? If so, which one don't they believe?”
While not strictly speaking they mostly believe in all but Limited Atonement. If they reject another tenet then they have a great inconsistency to hold 4. Irresistible Grace, Unconditional Election, Perseverance of the Saints are all tied together logically and biblically. The likelihood is that someone would be 4 pointer and not hold to Limited Atonement.

Your next question was, “Do all 3-point Calvinists believe the same 3 points? If so, which two don't they believe?”
Again, not absolutely but generally they hold to all but Limited Atonement and Irresistible Grace. These are people who are of the mind that the atonement is for all people and that there is not coercion towards their response to the Gospel. Why? For the same reasons the 4 pointers reject L and because they view Irresistible Grace as a violation of human freewill.

Your next question was, “Same type of questions for 2 and 1 point Calvinists.”
Not absolutely, but 2 pointers general hold to Total Depravity and Preference of the Saints and 1 pointers generally hold to Total Depravity.

Next you asked, “Is there a pecking order of points that people don't believe?”
If you go down the list from 5 to 1 you will see how I have dropped each at the various points, no pun intended…lol

Next you asked, “Does everyone agree on the difference between a 5-point Calvinist and a hyper-Calvinist?”
Certainly not in the absolute since, but most recognize that Calvinism versus Hyper is a matter of take Calvinism to the extreme and opposing missions. The Primitive Baptists of today are hyper-Calvinists. Most Calvinist believe very strongly in evangelism, while not supporting superficial methods, nevertheless they very much recognize the need for sharing the gospel and further believe the gospel to be indispensable in leading people to the Lord.

Lastly you asked, “If there are different grouping, which ones generally go together?”
Without knowing much about you and specifically your interest in this subject I will only offer you a very brief explanation here at this time. All of the points of Calvinism are logically and biblically linked. The TULIP was given in order to defend against Free Will Theology. Free Will theology sounds good as first, because we live in a free country, or at least those of us in the USA have that privilege. But the issue is not the violation of man’s own volition or free will, it is a matter of defining the nature of man’s capacity to act on his own behalf. So before you hear anything else just ask yourself this: Do you have the ability to save yourself or do you believe that God had to do something in order for you to rescued from a condition the Bible calls sin? Calvinism teaches that you are saved by grace through faith and it is not of yourself because that way nobody can boast. Do you know what? The Bible actually says that exact same thing (read Ephesians 2:8-9). So now the T simply means man is broken/unredeemable apart from God. Therefore if anyone is to be repaired/redeemed then it will be because God did it. Since God is receive all the credit and nobody else, he Unconditionally Elects which means he does not decide to redeem/repair anyone based on merit or good works. God does not say, hey that drfuss is doing good with what I gave her/him, I think I will go on and save that good natured little fuss. No, God elects based on his own good pleasure, according to his will and not the will of man (read John 1:12-13). Now the L is one that some have trouble accepting and I am not without appreciation for their reasons both morally and biblically, however, if you really study the Scriptures you will have to agree at least that the Bible does not teach that everyone is going to be saved. If everyone was going to be saved that would be Universalism. Now before you say what would be wrong with that, let me just say, first it would violate the Bible which I believe is God’s Word and is without error and secondly you must think of people like Hitler and Benladin. The fact is that God is merciful and one can see how God is able to graciously forgive, but God is also just or holy and he must punish sin. God will send to hell all those who do not believe in Jesus in order to punish sin. That is basically what Limited Atonement means, because the atonement means that Jesus took the wrath of God for those who would believe. If Jesus pays the price then you are saved, and since not everyone believes in Jesus, not everyone is going to be saved. Irresistible Grace simply means that God is able to save those whom he elects. This one is a matter of saying that God is in control. The good news is that because God is entirely sovereign and powerful, he can get this done without violating your free will. My wife does this to me all the time. She gets me to do something and I think it is my idea. It is called being out smarted. God can easily put you in the right place and the right time to receive the gospel. Irresistible Grace also means that you cannot be saved apart from the work of the Holy Spirit. Unless the Holy Spirit draws you into a relationship with God you would never decide you want to receive Christ. Why? Because all we like sheep have gone astray each unto our own way (Isaiah 53) and because all have sinned (Romans 3:23). Which brings us to Perseverance of the Saints. This one basically means you cannot lose your salvation. Why? For one you did not do anything to earn it and therefore it is not based on merit, so no matter how bad you may be it is by grace (unmerited favor) that you have been saved. If salvation were by works then you could lose your salvation. If someone teaches you that you can lose your salvation then they are teaching a works based salvation. Second, it is linked to the sovereignty of God. God will keep you safe and he will bring you home (read John 38,39).

I hope this helps you in your studies and if I can be of any further assistance please just feel free to ask away…

 

Hello baptistpastor/theologian, that was a very informative post. I will disagree on one point - the Primitive Baptists, as I understand them, do not oppose missions per se, but what they call the "financial missions system". That is, they do not have an outright anti-mission doctrinal position as do the "Gospel Standard" folks, however, you are correct inasmuch as many individual PB's I've known seem to oppose not only missions but witnessing in general. But again, I don't think that type of individual behavior represents their doctrinal position.

 

The only value in discussing the doctrines of grace are inasmuch as they do in fact tie the gospel into that discussion. Secondly, the offer of salvation needs to be real. If someone holds to less than 5 points they are being told that the atonement is potentially yours versus the actual case which is the atonement is accomplished and applied. Which ironically for some makes for better evangelism and stronger assurance of salvation. The idea of losing your salvation is equally as troubling as potential atonement. What assurance again does someone have if they think it is mine today but could be gone tomorrow. GRACE is import and necessary in understanding a genuine relationship with God. That does not mean you have to be a Calvinist to be saved, it just means you must understand Grace in order to realize the fullness of your salvation. But you are certainly welcome to continue sharing the gospel, but I just wanted you to know that there is more to life than just getting saved, there is also the process of sanctification and growing in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, ie discipleship.

 

Hello drfuss,

Sorry for mixing this thread up. My post was mainly addressing hyper-Calvinist..I just posted more then I should have. The reason for the order, has to do with only one point. That point is election. This is why you see election sliding down the scale as you go down the list. Election is held high in Gods decree by a Calvinist, and just a simply statement of blessing by the those that are saved after salvation to the Arminianist.

I would agree with others. An Arminian does not hold to Total Depravity.
For this we have a new list.

Sorry, but this is the way the debate goes.

This list is around the fall of man.

In short order.....is man dead, sick or well?

Pelagianism well
Pelagius said Adam alone fall..and is therefore well...and can come to Christ on His own. This is better known as pelagianism.

Arminian / Semi-pelagianism sick
Arminian, who use to teach Calvinism said Man was not dead in the fall, only sick. In other words. Mans sin nature makes it hard for man to believe...but is not dead so that he cannot believe. Today this is better known as Arminianism. But there is another list with this one..believe it or not. More on that later.

ALL Calvinist dead
Calvinist say man is dead and is blinded from the truth and can not understand, unless God reaches out to him and gives him that understanding. This happens with election and the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

Now..in Arminianism we have another list. Some say the atonement was applied at the cross, but the atonement only took away the sin nature of all men. The Wesleyan standpoint says the atonement is applied at salvation when one believes.

Some that claim Arminianism are really Pelagianism, for they believe man is well.

 

Offer of salvation ?

Scripture for offer of salvation, please ?
:confused:

 

pinoybaptist,

That is to say real vs. potential. You are asking me to provide for you Scripture that states that Jesus died a penal-substitutionary death and as you might imagine that is not very difficult. The real challenge is to show in Scripture where the death of Christ is not effectual toward salvation. In other words, I find no where in Scripture that Christ died for someone whom he was not able to effectually bring to salvation. But since you asked I will provide for you a sample list of Scriptures that profess the death of Christ was effectual. Get ready…

a. Matthew 1:21. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
b. Isaiah 53:11. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
c. Matthew 20:28. Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
d. Matthew 26:28. For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sin.
e. Hebrews 9:28. So Christ was once offered to bear the sin of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
f. John 6:37-39. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
g. John 10:14, 15. I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
h. John 10:26-28. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
i. Acts 20:28. Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
j. Isaiah 53:8. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
k. Luke 1:68. Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people.
l. Titus 2:13, 14. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of all good works.
m. Galatians 3:13. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree.
Passages which show that Christ's death actually and fully saves those for whom He died.
a. Luke 19:10. For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
b. Romans 5:8-10. But God commended therewith his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
c I Peter 2:24. Who his ownself bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

 

He died for all but we must believe to receive that blood applied to our soul and wash away our sins.

1 Timothy, chapter 2
5: For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

7: Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

8: I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting

2Cr 5:15 And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

 

BB

Even in this siggy it declares calvinism as the "whosoever will" is determined by God in eternity past! None will come to Him but those who He has regenerated their heart first!

 

Preach it Brother!

 

It would take a Calvinist to come up with a definition like that. You have to change whosoever, whomsoever, all ye ends of the earth, whole world and many other words. That is why I am not a Calvinist you have to change too many words to fit the Calvinist theory. but every man to his own, peace :laugh:

 

Have to change even more to be a non-calvinist!!

 

BD17

At least you admit changing, that is a start.

 

http://www.reformed.com/pub/fivepts.htm

Better said here than I could even say!

 

Dear BP/Th:

Thank you for bothering to look up these Scriptures. I know them, I've read them, and have preached on them many times.

What I underlined in your previous post does not pertain to the effectuality (is this an English word ? Sorry, I was not born and raised in the language) of Christ's death and resurrection.

I often wonder when people talk about an offer of eternal salvation. I know there is a choice given to God's people here in time to choose life (that is, blessings) over death (which is either physical as a result of disobedience or in the form of cursings).

But eternal salvation ? I have never found it to be an offer. It is given, to whoever its intended recipient is. And since the cross is past us, eternal salvation is now a reality to all for whom it was authored and finished by Christ.

Just as I often wonder about the term "lost".

Who is the "lost" ?

After the cross, no elect child of God can ever be considered "lost". At enmity with God, yes, by virtue of their fallen nature, before regeneration, but since each and every child of God will at some point be quickened by the Holy Spirit without use of any means, how can there be those who are "lost". Christ has found all His sheep, and have brought them into one fold, and Zion is back to where it belongs, with God reigning in it.

 

No need to preach to a lost and dying world then is there?

I disagree, peace

 

Hello Dr Fuss

Just how does this conflict?

I have that book somewhere. I have no idea how many points he believes in. I do not watch Stanley but maybe 2-3 times a year. I may have one other book by him..but I'm not sure. Anyway...I don't know that much about him to make that call. But..that quote i feel, all Calvinist would agree with.