U - Unconditional Election

[Skandelon]

I do not base my soteriology on any single chapter in the Word of God. Although, I do believe that man's free will is certainly present even in John chapter six.

Calvinists must understand the context of John 6.

Who is in his audience? Israelites, most of which are been hardened temporarily in their unbelief (John 12:39, Acts 28:23-28, Rm 11), the rest who have been set apart for the noble purpose of apostleship (the twelve he references later in the chapter).

That truth alone should give the reader change in perspective.

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvinists must understand the context of John 6.

Who is in his audience? Israelites, most of which are been hardened temporarily in their unbelief (John 12:39, Acts 28:23-28, Rm 11), the rest who have been set apart for the noble purpose of apostleship (the twelve he references later in the chapter).

That truth alone should give the reader change in perspective.

This really has nothing to do with the issue at all.This is a rabbit trail.The hardening of Israel is a topic unto itself.God's election of individuals to salvation is His business.

 

[Skandelon]

This really has nothing to do with the issue at all.This is a rabbit trail.The hardening of Israel is a topic unto itself.God's election of individuals to salvation is His business.

I just heard every hermeneutics teacher groan a little... Asking who is the audience and the historical context of that day is not a rabbit trail. You may disagree with my conclusions about those questions, but they MUST be addressed if you are going to practice good hermeneutical interpretation.

Additionally, anyone who fails to see the significance of God's temporary judicial hardening of Israel in relation to the subject of man's abilities to respond to God's revelation, is bound to make significant errors in interpretation.

 

[Iconoclast]

I just heard every hermeneutics teacher groan a little... Asking who is the audience and the historical context of that day is not a rabbit trail. You may disagree with my conclusions about those questions, but they MUST be addressed if you are going to practice good hermeneutical interpretation.

Additionally, anyone who fails to see the significance of God's temporary judicial hardening of Israel in relation to the subject of man's abilities to respond to God's revelation, is bound to make significant errors in interpretation.

Not So.

God's electing purposes were completed before the world was...before any national hardening took place.......

That jesus spoke to jews in jn does not change the Covenant of Redemption

all the Father Gives to me Shall come to me.....nothing, no hermenutic, nothing, jew/gentile, nothing alters this at all.

 

[psalms109:31]

The whole purpose of grace and unmerited favor and unconditional election is we are to come as we are there is nothing we have to do before hand God will make us into a new creation just how He spoke the earth into existence by His word we just listen and learn and His word will change us. It isn't to prove God picks one and passes over another that is man's conception. It is hard for man to see that God does not want any one to die, but He rather them to repent and live to turn to God through Jesus Christ and live. Do you not believe through the Holy Spirit that lives in you, you can do greater things than Jesus. Our own conceptions get in the way of the truth.

John 14:12
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.

I truly believe anyone who listens and learns from Jesus because Jesus and the Father are one will come just as Jesus has said.


It is the new creation that has been born again by His word that has been chosen before the foundation of the world. The old creation is dying around us it is what is in the inside that is becoming new that which has been chosen before the foundation of the world.

 

[Rippon]

Scripture Cited From NIV

It isn't to prove God picks one and passes over another that is man's conception. Our own conceptions get in the way of the truth.

However,contrary to your conception --the Bible makes it very clear that the Lord doesn't elect everyone --or it wouldn't be election at all. Stick with the Bible and not your ideas.

Ro. 9:15 :"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Ro. 9:18 :"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

 

[psalms109:31]

However,contrary to your conception --the Bible makes it very clear that the Lord doesn't elect everyone --or it wouldn't be election at all. Stick with the Bible and not your ideas.

Ro. 9:15 :"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Ro. 9:18 :"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

Universalism that the scripture does not teach is an excuse not to believe the scripture. If they do not repent they will not live and if they never listen to learn they can't repent to live so blessed is the feet who bring the good news. I am not a universalist not everyone will be saved.

We are born again by His word without the burning bush Moses would not of done what He done. Without the Angel of the Lord message to Abram, Abram would of done nothing. Paul without the word from the Lord at Damascus would of done nothing. According to scripture He has mercy on those who listen and learn for they are the ones who will come.

Repent today is this turn to God through Jesus Christ just the way we are dead in sin and His word will change you to be born again. We must be born again to see heaven.

1 Peter 1:23
for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[Skandelon]

Not So.

God's electing purposes were completed before the world was...before any national hardening took place.......

And that has to do with the proper hermeneutics of knowing the context and audience how? Clearly we disagree on our views of 'election' thus to properly argue for our view of this text we must be willing to actually address its context and audience. Jesus is speaking to a Jewish audience which is consisting of those being blinded from the truth temporarily and his 12 apostles, chosen to take the message of redemption to the rest of the world. How does not knowing that affect ones interpretation of this passage?

Just look at Western Calvinism and you will see the damage it does to the clear meaning of the text.

That jesus spoke to jews in jn does not change the Covenant of Redemption

Sure it does. Why? Because you think they are unable to believe because they were born unchosen, unloved and rejected by their maker, but Jesus says, "For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

And Paul says, "But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."

Does that sound like a people he doesn't love? NOOOO! Its a people who have rejected him for years and who are now being blinded or hardened in their rebellion and that is why they are not 'enabled' to come. That is why Jesus must draw them to himself. The gospel truth is what could draw them but they are blinded from that truth at this time. In fact it is not until Christ is lifted up that he send the gospel to go into all the world to draw all men to himself (John 12:32)

Context.

 

[Iconoclast]

Skandelon

And that has to do with the proper hermeneutics of knowing the context and audience how? Clearly we disagree on our views of 'election' thus to properly argue for our view of this text we must be willing to actually address its context and audience.

The teaching itself is heavenly.....Jesus came down to clarify what they should have already known...
What is called calvinism is exactly what Jesus taught:
It is really...JESUS -ISM.....he expected Nicodemus...THE teacher in Israel to already know from scripture these heavenly truths..
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus is speaking to a Jewish audience which is consisting of those being blinded from the truth temporarily and his 12 apostles, chosen to take the message of redemption to the rest of the world. How does not knowing that affect ones interpretation of this passage?

Because not all Israel was blinded to begin with...Blindness in part is happened to Israel.
His teaching was heavenly and spiritual...it was not limited to Israel.
the jewish misconceptions were that salvation and truth were limited to Israel. Scripture never did.
His teaching and kingdom going worldwide was all through the prophets
He addressed scripture first to Israel, because they had it..it was given to them by God...and the messiah was to come to them-
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid:

Sure it does. Why? Because you think they are unable to believe because they were born unchosen, unloved and rejected by their maker

,

Not at all.I believe they were unable to believe because of their twisted and sinful, alienated minds as a result of Adam's fall into sin and condemnation.

All men on earth would have made the same sin Adam did...they do also by experience worldwide.

but Jesus says, "For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

And Paul says, "But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."

Does that sound like a people he doesn't love?

God is love,He remains constant-

They as a nation had great privilege and with it great responsibility.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.



Jew and gentile were in view early on in Jn1....your contention is to be disallowed.....:wavey:

 

[Yeshua1]

Skandelon




The teaching itself is heavenly.....Jesus came down to clarify what they should have already known...
What is called calvinism is exactly what Jesus taught:
It is really...JESUS -ISM.....he expected Nicodemus...THE teacher in Israel to already know from scripture these heavenly truths..
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.



Because not all Israel was blinded to begin with...Blindness in part is happened to Israel.
His teaching was heavenly and spiritual...it was not limited to Israel.
the jewish misconceptions were that salvation and truth were limited to Israel. Scripture never did.
His teaching and kingdom going worldwide was all through the prophets
He addressed scripture first to Israel, because they had it..it was given to them by God...and the messiah was to come to them-
3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4 God forbid:

,

Not at all.I believe they were unable to believe because of their twisted and sinful, alienated minds as a result of Adam's fall into sin and condemnation.

All men on earth would have made the same sin Adam did...they do also by experience worldwide.



God is love,He remains constant-

They as a nation had great privilege and with it great responsibility.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.



Jew and gentile were in view early on in Jn1....your contention is to be disallowed.....:wavey:

thinkd Apostle John had the answer!

But as many as received him, to them he gave [x]prerogative to be the sons of God, even to them that believe in his Name,

13 Which are born not of blood, nor of the [y]will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 1 :12-13 geneva Bible