Unbelief of TULIP

[Iconoclast]

Also, we should not confuse God's will of decree in salvation with the work of the Spirit in illumining our minds to the truth. The Father calls all those who will come to the Son. The Holy Spirit is the person of the godhead who effects the call. As far as illumination of the truth, that is a different matter. Not every Christian is at the same level of knowledge. There are varied reasons for this: sin, intellectual ability, exposure (or lack thereof) to solid bible teaching et. al. The scripture say that, "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11-13). It is the responsibility of ministers of the gospel to teach the sheep. Some fulfill their duty and others are derelict at it.

:thumbsup::wavey::thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

With TULIP being so blatant and clearly being expressed in the scriptures, could we conclude the Holy Spirit is failing to teach this truth to the children of God?

Maybe that would be your understanding but mine is that "GOD DOES NOT FAIL "----see the difference!

 

[PreachTony]

No, Sapper. Tony asked why does not the "Spirit" continue to show him free will? If it is the operation of the Spirit than it should not matter what theological system is correct. I mean, after all, is anyone going to argue with the Holy Spirit?

It's early in the morning, so I'm trying to figure out if we've gotten our lines crossed somewhere.

I was asking a question of Bro. Willis.
He believes Calvinism to be the truth, and he believes the Spirit reveals that to him through the scriptures. (at least, that's what I took away from our conversation)
I believe Free will to be the truth, and I believe the Spirit reveals that to me through the scriptures.
If Calvinism is indeed the truth, then why does the Spirit continue to show me Free Will in the scriptures? Likewise, if Free Will is indeed the truth, then why does it continue to reveal Calvinism to Bro Willis? As he wrote, we are finite beings with finite minds. I actually like the term corruptible beings, seeing as the truth of the Word of God cannot be corrupted, but our interpretations can be.

As I've said before, and as I may actually change my signature to reflect, when we stand before God and enter into Glory, we'll be surprised (if such emotion is possible in the presence of the Lord) at how far off the mark our varied interpretations actually were.

 

[convicted1]

Now...are you going to answer my question?

You believe in free will and synergism...what made me change from them to God's sovereignity and monergism?

What caused me to change if free will and synergism is biblically true as you believe it is? I'll be waiting....

To borrow something someone posted on here...

You're on the clock...

Hey steaver?!?! Gonna answer this anytime soon? You was on here this morning, seeing your profile showed your last activity at 5:19 AM...

 

[Revmitchell]

Also, we should not confuse God's will of decree in salvation with the work of the Spirit in illumining our minds to the truth.

Why?

As far as illumination of the truth, that is a different matter.

How?

Not every Christian is at the same level of knowledge. There are varied reasons for this: sin, intellectual ability, exposure (or lack thereof) to solid bible teaching et. al.

So if we do not hold to TULIP we are either to sinful or to stupid?

The scripture say that, "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11-13). It is the responsibility of ministers of the gospel to teach the sheep. Some fulfill their duty and others are derelict at it.

So God is dependent on pastors doing their job correctly?

 

[Reformed]

It's early in the morning, so I'm trying to figure out if we've gotten our lines crossed somewhere.

I was asking a question of Bro. Willis.
He believes Calvinism to be the truth, and he believes the Spirit reveals that to him through the scriptures. (at least, that's what I took away from our conversation)
I believe Free will to be the truth, and I believe the Spirit reveals that to me through the scriptures.
If Calvinism is indeed the truth, then why does the Spirit continue to show me Free Will in the scriptures? Likewise, if Free Will is indeed the truth, then why does it continue to reveal Calvinism to Bro Willis? As he wrote, we are finite beings with finite minds. I actually like the term corruptible beings, seeing as the truth of the Word of God cannot be corrupted, but our interpretations can be.

As I've said before, and as I may actually change my signature to reflect, when we stand before God and enter into Glory, we'll be surprised (if such emotion is possible in the presence of the Lord) at how far off the mark our varied interpretations actually were.

Tony, all these posts are getting lost in translation. As we pose these questions to each other the fact that we are all left with is that we each believe we are right, inasmuch as any fallible human being can be right. We certainly do not believe we are wrong or else we would not believe in either our Monergistic or Synergistic position. If we have diligently searched the scriptures; if we have prayed that the Spirit will illumine our mind; if we have used extra-biblical resources properly (commentaries, books, sermons); then all we have left is to trust our conscience. I am not saying that it is acceptable to believe an erroneous doctrine. There are a great many heretics throughout church history that have read, prayed, listened to others and then followed their conscience only to be enemies of Christ and spread heresy. I think back to Arius spreading the heresy that Jesus was not God. He was fully convinced but fully wrong.

Is there a place for humble and prayerful correction of our brother whom we believe to be in error? I believe so. Is this the right venue? I am not always so sure. Message boards can be very helpful; especially when the discourse is civil and among grown ups acting like grown ups. There is another message board that I joined back in 2005. It is a well-known Reformed message board. The irenic nature of the threads allowed me to read and learn. I am still a Baptist, so I have not accepted everything I learned, but my participation in that board opened my eyes to much. I changed my view on a few things (most notably my position on the Lords Day and the frequency of the Lord's Supper) because the brothers on that board caused me to do further research. But what we cannot do, on any message board, is attack and hope that we can bludgeon our brother into changing his position. I am not at all suggesting that is your intention. That is a general comment.

I am fully convinced that Monergism is the biblical position. I am will argue for it (in the apologetic sense of the word) and defend it, but I will not use it to beat my brother senseless and hope that I will win my brother by doing so.

 

[convicted1]

I think I am getting my answer.

You had been warned, now suffer the consequences!! Bwaaa haaaa haaaa!!!!

 

[steaver]

Hey steaver?!?! Gonna answer this anytime soon? You was on here this morning, seeing your profile showed your last activity at 5:19 AM...

Calm down there brother Willis. I keep some pretty strange hours. Lot's of responsibilities. There have been some very good responses...and I think your going to see some very good contradictions "illuminated". :thumbsup:

 

[Reformed]

You had been warned, now suffer the consequences!! Bwaaa haaaa haaaa!!!!

Whatcha talking about, Willis?

 

[steaver]

What we see here is the thought process of those who have embraced Calvinism.

Calvinism teaches that it is man's fault that he cannot repent and be saved. God must illuminate man of the truth to the end of causing man to believe what has been illuminated. There is no illumination given with a freewill choice to reject it at the same time.

This teaching bleeds over into all interpretations and applications of the Scriptures. Thus, Calvinist also will conclude that if they believe an interpretation and application of Scripture, then it must be that God illuminated them to believe such and ultimately caused them to believe such. You will see at the end of each testimony something like "God opened my eyes to see this truth".

But then the Calvinist is faced with a conundrum. There are a huge amount of people who call themselves Christians, who appear to be Christians, appear to love Jesus Christ, appear to love the truth, appear to study earnestly, appear to pray and ask God for wisdom....yet they reject what the Calvinist have embraced as truth and what the Calvinist believes in his heart God illuminated said truth unto them. So what to do?

The Calvinist has two choices;

(1) Conclude these said Christians fall under John 10 - Matt 13, they simply are not true Christians. We seen this from a couple of posters here on the BB.

(2) Conclude that these are Christians but they are causing their own disbelief, it is their fault, maybe sin, maybe an un-teachable spirit. They are really Calvinist, just naughty ones who need disciplined by God until they fully believe it. They just don't know it yet.

Here is an example....

Reformed...

Also, we should not confuse God's will of decree in salvation with the work of the Spirit in illumining our minds to the truth. The Father calls all those who will come to the Son. The Holy Spirit is the person of the godhead who effects the call. As far as illumination of the truth, that is a different matter. Not every Christian is at the same level of knowledge. There are varied reasons for this: sin, intellectual ability, exposure (or lack thereof) to solid bible teaching et. al. The scripture say that, "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11-13). It is the responsibility of ministers of the gospel to teach the sheep. Some fulfill their duty and others are derelict at it.

Need I say more?

As you can see, the possibility that they could be wrong about Calvinism is not an option. It cannot be, for when you conclude that it is ultimately God who has revealed unto you that TULIP is correct, you have sealed your belief in Calvinism forever, in this life at least. There is no more debating it from the perspective of considering the other side might be right and you might be wrong. So those here who are Calvinist are not here to learn and test what they believe to be truth, but to preach what they believe God has already showed them is the truth.

So what are you saying steaver? Don't you believe God illuminates Scripture and gives understanding? Yes I do. But I see freewill presented in the Scripture as part of God's sovereignty to do so and allow it. The Holy Spirit is always at work illuminating Scripture to the lost and to the saved, but we as truly sinful and fallible human beings can reject illumination or misinterpret illumination. Unless you heard a voice from heaven speak directly into your mind concerning a theology you could be wrong!

 

[steaver]

Tony, all these posts are getting lost in translation. As we pose these questions to each other the fact that we are all left with is that we each believe we are right, inasmuch as any fallible human being can be right. We certainly do not believe we are wrong or else we would not believe in either our Monergistic or Synergistic position. If we have diligently searched the scriptures; if we have prayed that the Spirit will illumine our mind; if we have used extra-biblical resources properly (commentaries, books, sermons); then all we have left is to trust our conscience. I am not saying that it is acceptable to believe an erroneous doctrine. There are a great many heretics throughout church history that have read, prayed, listened to others and then followed their conscience only to be enemies of Christ and spread heresy. I think back to Arius spreading the heresy that Jesus was not God. He was fully convinced but fully wrong.

Is there a place for humble and prayerful correction of our brother whom we believe to be in error? I believe so. Is this the right venue? I am not always so sure. Message boards can be very helpful; especially when the discourse is civil and among grown ups acting like grown ups. There is another message board that I joined back in 2005. It is a well-known Reformed message board. The irenic nature of the threads allowed me to read and learn. I am still a Baptist, so I have not accepted everything I learned, but my participation in that board opened my eyes to much. I changed my view on a few things (most notably my position on the Lords Day and the frequency of the Lord's Supper) because the brothers on that board caused me to do further research. But what we cannot do, on any message board, is attack and hope that we can bludgeon our brother into changing his position. I am not at all suggesting that is your intention. That is a general comment.

I am fully convinced that Monergism is the biblical position. I am will argue for it (in the apologetic sense of the word) and defend it, but I will not use it to beat my brother senseless and hope that I will win my brother by doing so.

I like this post. But I have a question for you brother. Are you absolutely certain God showed you Calvinism is truth? If he did, then all of this you posted is really nice attempt at unity, but it really is not genuine.

 

[Reformed]

I like this post. But I have a question for you brother. Are you absolutely certain God showed you Calvinism is truth? If he did, then all of this you posted is really nice attempt at unity, but it really is not genuine.

steaver, I always add this caveat "Inasmuch as any, fallible human being can be certain of the truth". But yes, I believe the Holy Spirit illumined by mind to the truth, and that includes Monergism. Do you not believe the same thing about your beliefs?

When it comes to unity, I do not mean partnership in ministry. I can agree with my Synergist brother that salvation is by grace, through faith, in Christ alone. I agree with him on the deity of Christ, His virgin birth, His resurrection, and His imminent return. In short - we can agree on the fundamentals of the Christian faith. That is the unity we share with one another. But our disagreement over Monergism vs. Synergism is real, and it presents real issues for cooperation in ministry.

So, yes, I was being completely sincere. I was not attempting to mislead.

 

[Reformed]

What we see here is the thought process of those who have embraced Calvinism.

Calvinism teaches that it is man's fault that he cannot repent and be saved.

Correct.

Romans 8:7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, no for it is not even able to do so,

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Ephesians 2:1-2 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according t
o the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

God must illuminate man of the truth to the end of causing man to believe what has been illuminated.

True.

John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.'

Ephesians 1:18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

There is no illumination given with a freewill choice to reject it at the same time.

Since I believe the Bible does not teach a free will version of salvation, your statement is erroneous. The Father calls His sheep one way and one way only, and it has nothing to do with human free will. Does that mean a person who believes in Synergism was not really saved? No. It just means they are in error.

This teaching bleeds over into all interpretations and applications of the Scriptures. Thus, Calvinist also will conclude that if they believe an interpretation and application of Scripture, then it must be that God illuminated them to believe such and ultimately caused them to believe such. You will see at the end of each testimony something like "God opened my eyes to see this truth".

You mean this as a criticism, a pejorative, but it is absolutely true. What understanding of a biblical doctrine was not caused by the illumination of the Holy Spirit?

Paul told Timothy, in 1 Timothy 4:14, "Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery." The gift to preach is Spirit-given. Is the gift to learn no less Spirit-given?

You would like to narrow this point to what Monergists believe. But it is larger than that. The Spirit gives us understanding of all doctrine.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

But then the Calvinist is faced with a conundrum. There are a huge amount of people who call themselves Christians, who appear to be Christians, appear to love Jesus Christ, appear to love the truth, appear to study earnestly, appear to pray and ask God for wisdom....yet they reject what the Calvinist have embraced as truth and what the Calvinist believes in his heart God illuminated said truth unto them. So what to do?

The Calvinist has two choices;

(1) Conclude these said Christians fall under John 10 - Matt 13, they simply are not true Christians. We seen this from a couple of posters here on the BB.

(2) Conclude that these are Christians but they are causing their own disbelief, it is their fault, maybe sin, maybe an un-teachable spirit. They are really Calvinist, just naughty ones who need disciplined by God until they fully believe it. They just don't know it yet.

Straw man. If someone does not believe in Monergism, OK, so they do not believe in Monergism. The Monergist believes they are in error (just like they believe we are in error), but it does not mean they are not saved. They just have a deficient understanding on God's sovereignty.

Here is an example....

Also, we should not confuse God's will of decree in salvation with the work of the Spirit in illumining our minds to the truth. The Father calls all those who will come to the Son. The Holy Spirit is the person of the godhead who effects the call. As far as illumination of the truth, that is a different matter. Not every Christian is at the same level of knowledge. There are varied reasons for this: sin, intellectual ability, exposure (or lack thereof) to solid bible teaching et. al. The scripture say that, "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11-13). It is the responsibility of ministers of the gospel to teach the sheep. Some fulfill their duty and others are derelict at it.

All I was saying in that quote is that Christians are not at the same level of learning or understanding when it come to the truth of the Word of God. I pointed out why that is. It applies to every doctrine. I would question the integrity of a Synergist who does not believe the same thing about Monergists; that God has yet to illumine their minds to the truth of Synergism.

Need I say more?

Say as much as you like.

As you can see, the possibility that they could be wrong about Calvinism is not an option. It cannot be, for when you conclude that it is ultimately God who has revealed unto you that TULIP is correct, you have sealed your belief in Calvinism forever, in this life at least. There is no more debating it from the perspective of considering the other side might be right and you might be wrong. So those here who are Calvinist are not here to learn and test what they believe to be truth, but to preach what they believe God has already showed them is the truth.

You are indicting yourself here. This applies to you as well. But you also come to a conclusion that is flawed. You presume to know what individual Monergists are thinking. Part of progressive sanctification is learning more about God through His word. It means abandoning erroneous teachings as they are brought to our understanding. You do not mention the fact that for many Monergists the path to Monergism was a long one. Speaking for me, the change took years and only after much study. Since I was part of the "other side" I knew what it believed. That side had me hook, line, and sinker.

So what are you saying steaver? Don't you believe God illuminates Scripture and gives understanding? Yes I do. But I see freewill presented in the Scripture as part of God's sovereignty to do so and allow it. The Holy Spirit is always at work illuminating Scripture to the lost and to the saved, but we as truly sinful and fallible human beings can reject illumination or misinterpret illumination. Unless you heard a voice from heaven speak directly into your mind concerning a theology you could be wrong!

Could you be wrong?

 

[McCree79]

What we see here is the thought process of those who have embraced Calvinism.

Calvinism teaches that it is man's fault that he cannot repent and be saved. God must illuminate man of the truth to the end of causing man to believe what has been illuminated. There is no illumination given with a freewill choice to reject it at the same time.

This teaching bleeds over into all interpretations and applications of the Scriptures. Thus, Calvinist also will conclude that if they believe an interpretation and application of Scripture, then it must be that God illuminated them to believe such and ultimately caused them to believe such. You will see at the end of each testimony something like "God opened my eyes to see this truth".

But then the Calvinist is faced with a conundrum. There are a huge amount of people who call themselves Christians, who appear to be Christians, appear to love Jesus Christ, appear to love the truth, appear to study earnestly, appear to pray and ask God for wisdom....yet they reject what the Calvinist have embraced as truth and what the Calvinist believes in his heart God illuminated said truth unto them. So what to do?

The Calvinist has two choices;

(1) Conclude these said Christians fall under John 10 - Matt 13, they simply are not true Christians. We seen this from a couple of posters here on the BB.

(2) Conclude that these are Christians but they are causing their own disbelief, it is their fault, maybe sin, maybe an un-teachable spirit. They are really Calvinist, just naughty ones who need disciplined by God until they fully believe it. They just don't know it yet.

Here is an example....



Need I say more?

As you can see, the possibility that they could be wrong about Calvinism is not an option. It cannot be, for when you conclude that it is ultimately God who has revealed unto you that TULIP is correct, you have sealed your belief in Calvinism forever, in this life at least. There is no more debating it from the perspective of considering the other side might be right and you might be wrong. So those here who are Calvinist are not here to learn and test what they believe to be truth, but to preach what they believe God has already showed them is the truth.

So what are you saying steaver? Don't you believe God illuminates Scripture and gives understanding? Yes I do. But I see freewill presented in the Scripture as part of God's sovereignty to do so and allow it. The Holy Spirit is always at work illuminating Scripture to the lost and to the saved, but we as truly sinful and fallible human beings can reject illumination or misinterpret illumination. Unless you heard a voice from heaven speak directly into your mind concerning a theology you could be wrong!

At no point did you give an example of where a Calvinist says there interpretation of the bible has to be correct because God "illuminated" them. I have not heard or read any modern teacher of reformed theology state that. I have heard them, or read, them saying "I believe" "one theory is this, another is this". Rarely do I see them deal in absolutes outside of the 5 Sola's.

The understanding we get from scripture is from the Holy Spirit, as is our sanctification. Sanctification will not be completed until our glorification. As we grow in sanctification our knowledge of God will also grow. Anyone who says their way is the only way, is thinking too much of themselves. Don't get me wrong, certain things we should be solid in. Example, 5 Sola's, Trinity, etc.... Basically anything that would cause us to change the attributes of God and causes us to worship a different god. Such as, the Muslim god, is Not our God. They pray/worship a god with much different attributes. Monotheism, but not our God.

Who is teaching " God illuminated me, so I am right you are wrong"?

 

[steaver]

At no point did you give an example of where a Calvinist says there interpretation of the bible has to be correct because God "illuminated" them. I have not heard or read any modern teacher of reformed theology state that. I have heard them, or read, them saying "I believe" "one theory is this, another is this". Rarely do I see them deal in absolutes outside of the 5 Sola's.

The understanding we get from scripture is from the Holy Spirit, as is our sanctification. Sanctification will not be completed until our glorification. As we grow in sanctification our knowledge of God will also grow. Anyone who says their way is the only way, is thinking too much of themselves. Don't get me wrong, certain things we should be solid in. Example, 5 Sola's, Trinity, etc.... Basically anything that would cause us to change the attributes of God and causes us to worship a different god. Such as, the Muslim god, is Not our God. They pray/worship a god with much different attributes. Monotheism, but not our God.

Who is teaching " God illuminated me, so I am right you are wrong"?

Brother McCree, welcome to the board! Catch up on many of these threads on this topic and you will see just who believes as I said and just who is preaching it here.

 

[steaver]

Since I believe the Bible does not teach a free will version of salvation, your statement is erroneous.

You mean you believe my statement is erroneous. You cannot be 100% certain of course unless God spoke to you personally and told you it is, correct?

Straw man. If someone does not believe in Monergism, OK, so they do not believe in Monergism. The Monergist believes they are in error (just like they believe we are in error), but it does not mean they are not saved. They just have a deficient understanding on God's sovereignty.

And the possibility exist that the Monergist could be the one with a deficient understanding on God's sovereignty, correct?

Could you be wrong?

This has been my point, no? Yes, I could be wrong, I may be misunderstanding the Holy Spirit's illumination. Can you say the same? This is the point.

 

[Reformed]

You mean you believe my statement is erroneous. You cannot be 100% certain of course unless God spoke to you personally and told you it is, correct?



And the possibility exist that the Monergist could be the one with a deficient understanding on God's sovereignty, correct?



This has been my point, no? Yes, I could be wrong, I may be misunderstanding the Holy Spirit's illumination. Can you say the same? This is the point.

Could I be wrong? Sure. Do I believe I am wrong? No. Is that arrogant of me? I do not believe so. I am confident in my position. Remember, I came out of the Synergist camp and struggled mightily in leaving it. In end I will follow my conscience as I continue to study scripture and trust in the leading of the Helper. I pray you do the same.

 

[steaver]

Could I be wrong? Sure. Do I believe I am wrong? No. Is that arrogant of me? I do not believe so. I am confident in my position. Remember, I came out of the Synergist camp and struggled mightily in leaving it. In end I will follow my conscience as I continue to study scripture and trust in the leading of the Helper. I pray you do the same.

And with that post we come to an agreement that ultimately either one of us could be misunderstanding the Holy Spirit's illumination even though each of us strongly believe we are correct. :thumbsup:

I will guarantee you that this is a rarity for the Calvinist posting on this board. Most every Calvinist on this board will not say their understanding could be wrong.

If we can maintain the fact that either one of us could be wrong, then, and only then, can we have a brotherly, lovingly, debate over the issue. :wavey:

 

[Reformed]

And with that post we come to an agreement that ultimately either one of us could be misunderstanding the Holy Spirit's illumination even though each of us strongly believe we are correct. :thumbsup:

I will guarantee you that this is a rarity for the Calvinist posting on this board. Most every Calvinist on this board will not say their understanding could be wrong.

If we can maintain the fact that either one of us could be wrong, then, and only then, can we have a brotherly, lovingly, debate over the issue. :wavey:

But keep this in mind. Could either of us be wrong that Jesus Christ has saved us from our sins? New twist on the "could you be wrong" question, is it not? While I believe I may be wrong in my understanding of a certain point of doctrine, I believe it is impossible that I can wrong about my salvation (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Romans 10:9-10).

 

[tyndale1946]

Well I been gone awhile but I'm back... I am also TULIP and I have come to realize one thing. Those who are TULIP were at one time Non TULIP. You cannot just accept the ULIP without laying the foundation on the T. Until one can accept the T in TULIP you will never see it. The T establishes that it is ALL a work of the 3 in one Godhead. The T Total Depravity states that there no ability of man to save himself. Man is a corpse and that is a hard pill to swallow. Free will took a bite of the forbidden fruit and man died. Paul named and claimed he is the chief of sinners and I claim the same as I'm sure my Calvanist brethren also claim. There are very many illustrations of the condition of the nature man in the bible. He's dead in trespasses and in sin... He an infant polluted in his own blood thrown out in a field... He's in a pit wherein there is no water... A grave. But I think the best one of all... He is a criminal nailed on a cross on the right of Jesus Christ... He has no ability to save himself. When the child of God embraces Total Depravity then he can really see just how great his Saviour Jesus Christ really is.