Unbelief of TULIP

[convicted1]

It seems anything else would be a works gospel. It took some time for me to come around to this. The very idea that we have it within ourselves to respond to the Gospel and a Holy God is laughable. It shows that some do not realize the depth of depravity in man caused by sin. It affects all of Creation, not just man. The theory of "a spark of goodness" in us treats depravity like it is a common cold. Secondly if we could muster up a self induced response to the Gospel, it is just another thing we have to "do" for salvation. We do not "do" anything. It is a gift from God. We have created all sorts of "dos" over the centuries. Things like self effort to respond to the Gospel, be baptized, maintain a certain level of behavior or lose salvation, etc. Faith and grace that are the elements of salvation are also gifts of God.

Another thing, free will of man is bounded by our sinful nature. We can only exercise free will as fallen creatures. Without a touch from God (Spirit) we have no desire to respond. I always hear the whosoever will argument. The point is whosoever will won't unless God quickens them.

Nuh huh......

 

[convicted1]

Yes and what is so ironic about that is, I never accepted it while growing up as a Presbyterian, but came to that belief as a Baptist.

I found a picture of you and Brother Tom at your church picnic...

 

[convicted1]

And a member got a video of you two that same day...

 

[The American Dream]

And a member got a video of you two that same day...

You are so funny, but now that you mention it, I found a copy of your testimony.

It was a real skip to my lou day. The sky was clear and the birds were chirping. So I said to myself, what a great day to get saved. Think I will stop by the church and speak to the pastor, and get that taken care of.

 

[savedbymercy]

Yes and what is so ironic about that is, I never accepted it while growing up as a Presbyterian, but came to that belief as a Baptist.

So do you believe that those who reject the Gospel are believers of the Gospel ? Keep it in mind that you just agreed that the Truths of Tulip are the Gospel !

 

[The American Dream]

So do you believe that those who reject the Gospel are believers of the Gospel ? Keep it in mind that you just agreed that the Truths of Tulip are the Gospel !

I think I see where this is going. Yes, I believe tulip reflects the truths of the Gospel. Also, I do think anything like regenerational baptism or human effort towards salvation is different than the Gospel I believe in.

What I am not going to say is that Arminians are lost. Rejecting the Gospel is quite different than being in error about it. To me, rejection means you have a full understanding of the Gospel then reject it.

Nice try.

 

[savedbymercy]

I think I see where this is going. Yes, I believe tulip reflects the truths of the Gospel. Also, I do think anything like regenerational baptism or human effort towards salvation is different than the Gospel I believe in.

What I am not going to say is that Arminians are lost. Rejecting the Gospel is quite different than being in error about it. To me, rejection means you have a full understanding of the Gospel then reject it.

Nice try.

I disagree with you, you are now saying that a person can believe the Gospel and reject it at the same time. There's no true belief without an understanding Matthew 13:23 !

 

[The American Dream]

I disagree with you, you are now saying that a person can believe the Gospel and reject it at the same time. There's no true belief without an understanding Matthew 13:23 !

The good seed says "he who understands." What makes you think for one second you have a complete grasp of the Gospel and others do not? I believe TULIP to be an accurate reflection of the Gospel. Others can look at Romans 8:28-30 in a different light. What makes your understanding the correct one and unique? Thing is are these folks that disagree with you one of the other three categories of seed. One seed did not take root. That's not the case of different stripes of Calvinism and Arminianism. One seed was choked out by thorns because of the cares of this world. That does not apply. And the fourth, was a rejection of the Gospel. That does not fit the group you are talking about either.

Just because someone does not hold your exact opinion of the Gospel does not mean they are lost. It might mean they are in error, or it might mean you are in error.

God is sovereign. Man is an agent of free will bounded by his own depravity unable to chose anything Godly without intervention by the Lord. Salvation is by grace through faith only. We can argue all day about the timing and order of faith, regeneration, justification, sanctification etc, etc.

For the folks here on BB that do not believe in Calvinism like I do, either direction such as hyper, or fall into the Arminian camp, none of them have rejected the Gospel as you put it. None fall into the other categories of seed. God is working in their lives as much as He is yours. You really need to understand the difference between rejecting the Gospel and a difference of opinion.

 

[savedbymercy]

The good seed says "he who understands." What makes you think for one second you have a complete grasp of the Gospel and others do not? I believe TULIP to be an accurate reflection of the Gospel. Others can look at Romans 8:28-30 in a different light. What makes your understanding the correct one and unique? Thing is are these folks that disagree with you one of the other three categories of seed. One seed did not take root. That's not the case of different stripes of Calvinism and Arminianism. One seed was choked out by thorns because of the cares of this world. That does not apply. And the fourth, was a rejection of the Gospel. That does not fit the group you are talking about either.

Just because someone does not hold your exact opinion of the Gospel does not mean they are lost. It might mean they are in error, or it might mean you are in error.

God is sovereign. Man is an agent of free will bounded by his own depravity unable to chose anything Godly without intervention by the Lord. Salvation is by grace through faith only. We can argue all day about the timing and order of faith, regeneration, justification, sanctification etc, etc.

For the folks here on BB that do not believe in Calvinism like I do, either direction such as hyper, or fall into the Arminian camp, none of them have rejected the Gospel as you put it. None fall into the other categories of seed. God is working in their lives as much as He is yours. You really need to understand the difference between rejecting the Gospel and a difference of opinion.

You are inconsistent, one cannot believe the Gospel and not believe it at the same time ! It's impossible to believe the truth of Gospel and Errors that oppose the Truth of the Gospel ! You also show no regard for the Holy Ghost , it is He that reveals the Truth to Faith Rom 1:16-17 !

 

[The American Dream]

You are inconsistent, one cannot believe the Gospel and not believe it at the same time ! It's impossible to believe the truth of Gospel and Errors that oppose the Truth of the Gospel ! You also show no regard for the Holy Ghost , it is He that reveals the Truth to Faith Rom 1:16-17 !

I am out of this thread. I am not getting into a back and forth. Those days are over. I am not about to imply directly or indirectly the status of someone's salvation based on this issue. I have the highest regard for the Holy Spirit. It seems to me when you cannot back up your own issue about the four seeds you move from the issue to demeaning the poster.

 

[convicted1]

Bro. Amer. Dream, you're wasting your time. He questioned the salvation of MANY on here and still posts away like nothing was ever said. Read RevMitch's signature....

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I think I see where this is going. Yes, I believe tulip reflects the truths of the Gospel. Also, I do think anything like regenerational baptism or human effort towards salvation is different than the Gospel I believe in.

What I am not going to say is that Arminians are lost. Rejecting the Gospel is quite different than being in error about it. To me, rejection means you have a full understanding of the Gospel then reject it.

Nice try.

There ya go:thumbsup:

 

[savedbymercy]

I am out of this thread. I am not getting into a back and forth. Those days are over. I am not about to imply directly or indirectly the status of someone's salvation based on this issue. I have the highest regard for the Holy Spirit. It seems to me when you cannot back up your own issue about the four seeds you move from the issue to demeaning the poster.

You are a walking contradiction, it is impossible for one to believe the Gospel and at the same time reject the Gospel !

 

[robustheologian]

The good seed says "he who understands." What makes you think for one second you have a complete grasp of the Gospel and others do not? I believe TULIP to be an accurate reflection of the Gospel. Others can look at Romans 8:28-30 in a different light. What makes your understanding the correct one and unique? Thing is are these folks that disagree with you one of the other three categories of seed. One seed did not take root. That's not the case of different stripes of Calvinism and Arminianism. One seed was choked out by thorns because of the cares of this world. That does not apply. And the fourth, was a rejection of the Gospel. That does not fit the group you are talking about either.

Just because someone does not hold your exact opinion of the Gospel does not mean they are lost. It might mean they are in error, or it might mean you are in error.

God is sovereign. Man is an agent of free will bounded by his own depravity unable to chose anything Godly without intervention by the Lord. Salvation is by grace through faith only. We can argue all day about the timing and order of faith, regeneration, justification, sanctification etc, etc.

For the folks here on BB that do not believe in Calvinism like I do, either direction such as hyper, or fall into the Arminian camp, none of them have rejected the Gospel as you put it. None fall into the other categories of seed. God is working in their lives as much as He is yours. You really need to understand the difference between rejecting the Gospel and a difference of opinion.

You are inconsistent, one cannot believe the Gospel and not believe it at the same time ! It's impossible to believe the truth of Gospel and Errors that oppose the Truth of the Gospel ! You also show no regard for the Holy Ghost , it is He that reveals the Truth to Faith Rom 1:16-17 !

You are a walking contradiction, it is impossible for one to believe the Gospel and at the same time reject the Gospel !

Despite what his name says there's no way this guy (savedbymercy) is saved. When someone disagrees with his uneducated opinion, he goes straight to insults. No fruit of the Spirit just works of the flesh (Galatians 5). He is a 21st century Pharisee...or better yet he's probably a non-believer who's only intent is to sew discord, strife, dissension, and division (Galatians 5:20).

 

[convicted1]

Now...are you going to answer my question?

You believe in free will and synergism...what made me change from them to God's sovereignity and monergism?

What caused me to change if free will and synergism is biblically true as you believe it is? I'll be waiting....

To borrow something someone posted on here...

You're on the clock...

You've sure made a lot of posts on here and still haven't gotten around to this post I directed towards you.....

You're still on the clock....time's ticking away.....


tick tick tick tick tick tick......

 

[steaver]

You've sure made a lot of posts on here and still haven't gotten around to this post I directed towards you.....

You're still on the clock....time's ticking away.....


tick tick tick tick tick tick......

Brother Willis, your question was a repeat of brother Reform's question in which he and I had an exchange back and forth with my answer and we eventually ended in agreement.

I assumed you had followed the discussion and that since your question was the exact same question you would have felt it was answered. Now it could be you disagree with brother Reform's answers and want to have our own back and forth. If this be the case then I can start anew, if you missed our conversation brother Reform and I had then you can go back a few pages and catch up on it.

 

[Yeshua1]

With TULIP being so blatant and clearly being expressed in the scriptures, could we conclude the Holy Spirit is failing to teach this truth to the children of God?

He is the One to bring to us illumination and understanding of the Bible and of the things of Christ, but God also allows us to hold unto a religious "grid lock", and our preconceived notions as to what the scriptures really are saying to us!

 

[thatbrian]

From my experience, most synergists did not study to come to their conclusions; they started with the premise that man has free will and brought it to scripture, which is why they miss what scripture says. They look at it with freewill colored glasses.

Putting it another way, synergism is a default. It's what people naturally believe. God, through His Word, and through circumstances, slowly conforms our thinking to His.

Look at what Paul prays for the Ephesians:

For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. (Eph 3:14-19)

These people were Christians. Did they not understand the love of Christ?! Yes, and no. They did to some extent, but they evidentially needed God's action so that they would be able to further comprehend it. Paul was praying for God to act in the lives of these people so that they would be able to grasp (comprehend) the love of Christ.

We are not born accepting God's truths; we are slowly brought into a better understanding of them, not simply through study, but through, preaching, prayer, fellowship, and direct Devine action.

"I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being".

 

[Reformed]

From my experience, most synergists did not study to come to their conclusions; they started with the premise that man has free will and brought it to scripture, which is why they miss what scripture says. They look at it with freewill colored glasses.

Putting it another way, synergism is a default. It's what people naturally believe. God, through His Word, and through circumstances, slowly conforms our thinking to His.

Look at what Paul prays for the Ephesians:

For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. (Eph 3:14-19)

These people were Christians. Did they not understand the love of Christ?! Yes, and no. They did to some extent, but they evidentially needed God's action so that they would be able to further comprehend it. Paul was praying for God to act in the lives of these people so that they would be able to grasp (comprehend) the love of Christ.

We are not born accepting God's truths; we are slowly brought into a better understanding of them, not simply through study, but through, preaching, prayer, fellowship, and direct Devine action.

"I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being".

Brian,

May I provide a different perspective? Most children of Monergist parents, who are raised in a Monergist church, are going to have Monergism as their default theological understanding. To say that Synergism is a default theological understanding across the board is not completely accurate. Since Synergism is the majority view across broad evangelicalism your premise seems sound, but it is only true a person comes to faith under Synergist influence.

 

[thatbrian]

Brian,

May I provide a different perspective? Most children of Monergist parents, who are raised in a Monergist church, are going to have Monergism as their default theological understanding. To say that Synergism is a default theological understanding across the board is not completely accurate. Since Synergism is the majority view across broad evangelicalism your premise seems sound, but it is only true a person comes to faith under Synergist influence.

I partly agree with that; however, I understand synergism to be the default mode of the human heart regardless of upbringing. Synergism is akin to self-righteousness, which is the default mode of the human heart, not just a theological viewpoint. People might pass a theological quiz with perfect monergistic answers, yet they can function, to varying degrees, as synergists.

The good teaching a child in a monergistic home receives may correct his fleshly thinking, but that thinking is/was there to correct.

It's inherent in human nature, is my view.