Unbelievers in Churches

[The Archangel]

This is a provocative clip of a message by John Piper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQjkc5ebRhg&index=25&list=PLAcB0f-21Xj2XMVK-X9yUIJucZ2cQ9RQB

This pretty much describes well the church's greatest problem. The easy-believism, non-Lordship crowd contribute to the problem....

The Archangel

 

[InTheLight]

First line of the video clip:

"There are millions of nominal Christians who are not born again and who believe God loves them and are on their way to Hell."

Well, thank you very much Mr. Calvinist for once again questioning someone's salvation. <SMH>

BTW, what are "Christians who are not born again?" That's an oxymoron, unless the Calvinist has a new classification of 'almost Christians, but not quite.'

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

This is a provocative clip of a message by John Piper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQjkc5ebRhg&index=25&list=PLAcB0f-21Xj2XMVK-X9yUIJucZ2cQ9RQB

This pretty much describes well the church's greatest problem. The easy-believism, non-Lordship crowd contribute to the problem....

Oh, for the love of ...

Good grief, it couldn't have anything to do with the fact they're tares, could it?

Matthew 13, NASB
24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25 "But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
26 "But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
27 "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
28 "And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
29 "But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn." ' " ​

Just like the farmer's field, the church is set apart for a purpose. The separation of the plot of land doesn't keep weeds from cropping up among the wheat, and the sanctification of the members of the church doesn't prevent Satan's work from taking root among them either. It has nothing to do with how the Gospel was presented to them, how well or badly they are discipled, or whether or not "Lordship salvation" is preached or not. It has everything to do with with efforts of Satan to ward off his fate, and he's so deeply misguided and self-centered as to think messing with God's people by sending his people among them will do that.

 

[Revmitchell]

Easy believism will create false converts (tares) to be sure.

 

[preachinjesus]

Its always curious to me to find a Calvinist talking about the wheat and the tares kind of talk. That there are numerous multitudes of unbelievers among the saved in Church.

As if, according to their soteriology, these wretched non-Christians could ever recognize their spiritual disposition or respond to a Gospel message.

Kind of ironic actually. Perhaps these are those who are damned to Hell by God before the world began.

 

[InTheLight]

Its always curious to me to find a Calvinist talking about the wheat and the tares kind of talk. That there are numerous multitudes of unbelievers among the saved in Church.

As if, according to their soteriology, these wretched non-Christians could ever recognize their spiritual disposition or respond to a Gospel message.

Kind of ironic actually. Perhaps these are those who are damned to Hell by God before the world began.

It's also ironic that, according to the Calvinist, people are spiritually dead and do not seek God, yet can be found by the millions attending church, even attending Calvinistic churches.

 

[JamesL]

I'm convinced that there are probably tons of unbelievers in church. But not because someone has made the gospel "too easy"

Instead, much of today's church makes the gospel inaccessible. They have exchanged the simplicity of the cross for the subjectivity of commitment.

No longer does the church hope in the finished work of our Lord. Instead, they're hoping in their own flimsy attempt to appease God's wrath by "giving their life to Christ"

Or "making a commitment"
or "calling on" His Name without understanding what that means
or making a "decision"

And this is because the blind is leading the blind.

No sir, this idea of "praying a simple prayer" isn't easy-believism, because that prayer is a man-made work which requires no faith in Christ whatsoever. It is a works-based attempt to access the grace of God.

But it is no further off the rails than the ones who require full commitment in order to access the grace of God. Which is more works-based ? A one minute prayer, or a lifetime commitment?

I heard one lady who was so happy that her son had "committed his life" to Christ and was now "livin' for the Lord"

She was dumbfounded when I said, "yeah, but does your son believe the gospel?"
She looked at me with a concerned look on her face, and asked "what do you mean?"

If you don't know that there's a difference, maybe you've never believed upon Him.

 

[The Archangel]

First line of the video clip:

"There are millions of nominal Christians who are not born again and who believe God loves them and are on their way to Hell."

Well, thank you very much Mr. Calvinist for once again questioning someone's salvation. <SMH>

BTW, what are "Christians who are not born again?" That's an oxymoron, unless the Calvinist has a new classification of 'almost Christians, but not quite.'

So, I guess, then, Paul was a Calvinist:

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test. But we pray to God that you may not do wrong—not that we may appear to have met the test, but that you may do what is right, though we may seem to have failed. For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. For we are glad when we are weak and you are strong. Your restoration is what we pray for. For this reason I write these things while I am away from you, that when I come I may not have to be severe in my use of the authority that the Lord has given me for building up and not for tearing down.

(2 Corinthians 13:5-10 ESV)

So, if Paul commands a church member to examine themselves to see if their faith is genuine it's OK, but for a pastor to do so today is "wrong."

Get real and give the rest of us a break...

The Archangel

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

First line of the video clip:

"There are millions of nominal Christians who are not born again and who believe God loves them and are on their way to Hell."

Well, thank you very much Mr. Calvinist for once again questioning someone's salvation. <SMH>

BTW, what are "Christians who are not born again?" That's an oxymoron, unless the Calvinist has a new classification of 'almost Christians, but not quite.'

LOL....don't candy coat it brother.....tell us what you really think! :laugh:

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

So, if Paul commands a church member to examine themselves to see if their faith is genuine ...

Really? Let's look at the whole passage, hm?

2 Corinthians 13, NASB
2 I have previously said when present the second time, and though now absent I say in advance to those who have sinned in the past and to all the rest as well, that if I come again I will not spare anyone,
3 since you are seeking for proof of the Christ who speaks in me, and who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you.
4 For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you.
5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you-unless indeed you fail the test?
6 But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test. [Emphasis added]​

Paul was not speaking of a lack of faith in Christ, an absence of the Holy Spirit, in the Corinthians. The context proves his reproof was regarding their refusal to accept his own authority as coming from Christ. When Paul says, "test yourselves to see if you are in the faith," he admonishes them against rejecting him as Christ's apostle simply because they don't like what he's saying. He has just spent the whole of chapter twelve chastising them, not for "lack of faith," but for confidence in his calling.

 

[Reformed]

Its always curious to me to find a Calvinist talking about the wheat and the tares kind of talk. That there are numerous multitudes of unbelievers among the saved in Church.

As if, according to their soteriology, these wretched non-Christians could ever recognize their spiritual disposition or respond to a Gospel message.

Kind of ironic actually. Perhaps these are those who are damned to Hell by God before the world began.

Nice caricature you created, but is only fit for a fiction novel.

Calvinists have always recognized that wheat and tares are present together in the visible church.

"these wretched non-Christians" as you describe them, are ever an anon in the same position as anyone else who has not yet become a believer. If God desires to call then in time, then they will experience the mercy of the Lord, just as we have. This is the reason why the Gospel is to be proclaimed in our churches until the end of the age. By it the saints are strengthened and equipped, and unbelievers are presented with the knowledge of salvation. It is the Holy Spirit's role to move upon the hearer.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is a provocative clip of a message by John Piper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQjkc5ebRhg&index=25&list=PLAcB0f-21Xj2XMVK-X9yUIJucZ2cQ9RQB

This pretty much describes well the church's greatest problem. The easy-believism, non-Lordship crowd contribute to the problem....

The Archangel

The problem was NOT caused by whether one held to OSAS/LS doctrines, but that those who have not been converted by God never sought to check to see if their conversions actually were the real deal...

And the Pulpit and teachers teaching from the Bible were not perhaps even giving forth the right message that actually God uses to save...

 

[InTheLight]

So, if Paul commands a church member to examine themselves to see if their faith is genuine it's OK, but for a pastor to do so today is "wrong."

Get real and give the rest of us a break...

The Archangel

What is wrong is to say there are "Christians who are not born again". There is no such thing as a Christian who is not born again. Furthermore, Piper wasn't saying church members should examine themselves, he stated that the foundation of people's happiness is different for born again Christians vs. nominal (non born again) Christians. He said that people "turn to Christ for happiness". Happy marriages, happy lives, a new butler, and new bell hop, Blah, blah, blah...

So please show me in the video clip you posted where Piper admonishes us to "examine ourselves" to see if we are in the faith. Just list the minute and second mark and we can all go look at it, OK?

 

[JamesL]

This is a provocative clip of a message by John Piper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQjkc5ebRhg&index=25&list=PLAcB0f-21Xj2XMVK-X9yUIJucZ2cQ9RQB

This pretty much describes well the church's greatest problem. The easy-believism, non-Lordship crowd contribute to the problem....

The Archangel

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek - Rom 1:16

Did Paul say to everyone who believes, or everyone who behaves?

You and your Lordship pals have pitched your tents in the camp of efforts, seemingly preferring the works of Cain over the faith of Abel.

The beginning of your flaw is the lie that faith = facts, and only becomes "saving" when the facts are coupled with works.

But facts plus action never saved anyone. If you don't get correct on the nature of faith, you'll never get on track

 

[Winman]

Easy believism will create false converts (tares) to be sure.

Jhn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Wow, Jesus told the Samaritan woman all she had to do was ask, and he would give her living water. Sounds easy.

 

[Reformed]

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek - Rom 1:16

Did Paul say to everyone who believes, or everyone who behaves?

You and your Lordship pals have pitched your tents in the camp of efforts, seemingly preferring the works of Cain over the faith of Abel.

The beginning of your flaw is the lie that faith = facts, and only becomes "saving" when the facts are coupled with works.

But facts plus action never saved anyone. If you don't get correct on the nature of faith, you'll never get on track

I said to myself, "Self, do you really want to respond to this post? I mean, he's a smart guy who knows better then to misrepresent the other side. Surely he's just having a bad day." And just as I was ready to go to MLB.com to see the score of the Mets vs. Phillies game, I decided that I would respond, because error does not deserve to go unchecked.

Let's put to rest the nonsense argument that those of us who hold to Lordship Salvation prefer works over faith. In fact it's more than just nonsense. It's dung (I'm tempted to pull a Mark Driscoll with my superlatives, but then I would probably be ousted from this board)! None of the major proponents of Lordship Salvation believe that. None of them teach that. I know I don't. Justification by faith alone is a biblical doctrine that we confess. We just happen to believe the bible teaches that conversion results in changed affections and changed behavior. We do not believe that changed behavior means that Christians will no longer sin. Even the framers of the 1689 LBC and WCF knew this:

1689 LBC 17.3 And though they may, through the temptation of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins, and for a time continue therein, whereby they incur God's displeasure and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to have their graces and comforts impaired, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded, hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves, yet shall they renew their repentance and be preserved through faith in Christ Jesus to the end.

WCF 17.3 Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.

Show me a person who confesses Jesus Christ, struggles with abiding sin, and genuinely repents, and I will show you a Christian; even if this cycle is repeated over and over again. Show me a person who confesses Jesus Christ, sins with impunity, and has no desire to repent, and I will show you a person whose profession is on perilous ground. I stop short of labeling such a person as unsaved, because only God knows for sure. But as a minister of the Gospel I would fear for such a one's eternal destiny.

The real villain in this debate is the opposite of Lordship Salvation -- Antinomianism, a.k.a. easy believism or "how to emasculate the life-changing effect of the new birth while keeping a straight face".

 

[Iconoclast]

I said to myself, "Self, do you really want to respond to this post? I mean, he's a smart guy who knows better then to misrepresent the other side. Surely he's just having a bad day." And just as I was ready to go to MLB.com to see the score of the Mets vs. Phillies game, I decided that I would respond, because error does not deserve to go unchecked.

Let's put to rest the nonsense argument that those of us who hold to Lordship Salvation prefer works over faith. In fact it's more than just nonsense. It's dung (I'm tempted to pull a Mark Driscoll with my superlatives, but then I would probably be ousted from this board)! None of the major proponents of Lordship Salvation believe that. None of them teach that. I know I don't. Justification by faith alone is a biblical doctrine that we confess. We just happen to believe the bible teaches that conversion results in changed affections and changed behavior. We do not believe that changed behavior means that Christians will no longer sin. Even the framers of the 1689 LBC and WCF knew this:



Show me a person who confesses Jesus Christ, struggles with abiding sin, and genuinely repents, and I will show you a Christian; even if this cycle is repeated over and over again. Show me a person who confesses Jesus Christ, sins with impunity, and has no desire to repent, and I will show you a person whose profession is on perilous ground. I stop short of labeling such a person as unsaved, because only God knows for sure. But as a minister of the Gospel I would fear for such a one's eternal destiny.

The real villain in this debate is the opposite of Lordship Salvation -- Antinomianism, a.k.a. easy believism or "how to emasculate the life-changing effect of the new birth while keeping a straight face".

:applause::applause::applause::thumbsup:

 

[The Archangel]

I said to myself, "Self, do you really want to respond to this post? I mean, he's a smart guy who knows better then to misrepresent the other side. Surely he's just having a bad day." And just as I was ready to go to MLB.com to see the score of the Mets vs. Phillies game, I decided that I would respond, because error does not deserve to go unchecked.

Let's put to rest the nonsense argument that those of us who hold to Lordship Salvation prefer works over faith. In fact it's more than just nonsense. It's dung (I'm tempted to pull a Mark Driscoll with my superlatives, but then I would probably be ousted from this board)! None of the major proponents of Lordship Salvation believe that. None of them teach that. I know I don't. Justification by faith alone is a biblical doctrine that we confess. We just happen to believe the bible teaches that conversion results in changed affections and changed behavior. We do not believe that changed behavior means that Christians will no longer sin. Even the framers of the 1689 LBC and WCF knew this:



Show me a person who confesses Jesus Christ, struggles with abiding sin, and genuinely repents, and I will show you a Christian; even if this cycle is repeated over and over again. Show me a person who confesses Jesus Christ, sins with impunity, and has no desire to repent, and I will show you a person whose profession is on perilous ground. I stop short of labeling such a person as unsaved, because only God knows for sure. But as a minister of the Gospel I would fear for such a one's eternal destiny.

The real villain in this debate is the opposite of Lordship Salvation -- Antinomianism, a.k.a. easy believism or "how to emasculate the life-changing effect of the new birth while keeping a straight face".

Well said. No need to add anything.

The Archangel

 

[InTheLight]

Well said. No need to add anything.

The Archangel

Well, I'd like the time stamp in the video where Piper says to examine ourselves to see if we're in the faith.

 

[righteousdude2]

Matthew 7:13-14 says it best .....

This is a provocative clip of a message by John Piper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQjkc5ebRhg&index=25&list=PLAcB0f-21Xj2XMVK-X9yUIJucZ2cQ9RQB

This pretty much describes well the church's greatest problem. The easy-believism, non-Lordship crowd contribute to the problem....

The Archangel

Jesus foretold that there were only two paths in life. One was narrow, sparsely traveled, and prone to difficulties, but it was this very path that led to the narrow gate leading to eternal life!

He also spoke of the wide road, and said it would be heavily traveled, and it ended in destruction!

Today, within many well-meaning churches are well-meaning people, with good hearts. The problem is they've paid the toll keeper to travel the Highway to Hell. And even though a majority of the folks on that Highway are truly evil, there are a lot more folks that have bought the "E" ticket ride on the Unversalism theology that says everyone is going to heaven, because God is love, and because God is love He just couldn't, just wouldn't send everyone to hell!

They are riding the lie-way to hell, thinking that church membership, being a good person, or a bunch of other holy-hocus-pocus bunk will get them into heaven. While missing the most important truth and the only through that "You must be born-again!" Trouble is, being born-again is either a foreign concept to them because their universal church doesn't preach this, or they don't want to have anything to do with a religion that might require them to change a few things.

This is such a tragedy, and a humongous waste of time!Still, no matter how much good they end up doing in this world, if they have not come to the Father by believing in, repenting to and accepting him into their heart .... a life time of good will end up lost forever!

Either Jesus is the Son of God and the way and the truth and the only way back to the Father, or he is the biggest, most deluded man to live. And that is the crux of this entire thing, and why more and more unbelievers sit in the pews!

Of course the above is totally my humble, holy opinion based on the Word of God! raying: