Unconditional Election And the Invincible Purpose of God

[Eric B]

So you want to rewrite "I never knew you" to mean "I don't know you now because you didn't come to know me when I gave you the chance to do so of your own free will." How fascinating! Perhaps it also means, "I never met you," or "I foreknew you but I don't really know you now because we weren't properly introduced."

Huh?
Who's "rewriting" anything? What does your paraphrase have to do with my point of the meaning of "know" referring to intimacy? If anything, it's your reading that suggests "I never met you because My Father never introduced me to you"

 

[Ray Berrian]

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Unbelief is only covered as a sin when a person becomes a child of God.

 

[Bible-belted]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Unbelief is only covered as a sin when a person becomes a child of God.

So now the atonement covers every sin without any act of faith on our part except unbelief, ewhich does require an act of faith?

Where in Scripture do we see that division of the work of Christ into two categories, one that must be appropriated by faith, th eother not? Where do we see that there are two categories of sins, those that must be repented of to be forgiven, and those that do not?

These questions of themselves should serve to correct you, for you are wrong.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
If Christ paid for all sins, then why does anyone go to hell?

Here's another stumper. Most Arminians I know interpret the following to mean that every knee WILL bow and every tongue WILL confess that Jesus is Lord. The only difference will be the state the person is in when doing so (some will do so willingly in gratitude, since they are saved, and others will do so in fear and sorrow because they did not do this when they had a chance to be saved.)

Philippians 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

But to take a typical Arminian "logical" stance in defense of the love of God:

If God is a loving God, and everyone does eventually bow the knee and confess Jesus is Lord, then why won't God save them at that point? Why does God care that you didn't believe when your physical body was alive? As long as you believe and confess Jesus is Lord, why should God reject you then? Sure it's easier to believe when you're physically dead and then wake up and see for yourself that Jesus really exists and there's more to this creation than your physical body. But isn't that just the point? If God is loving, why does he only accept faith when it's hard to have it, but reject it when it's easy? If God is not willing that any should perish, one must assume that God would make faith as easy as possible, and accept faith when it's arrived at easily, such as when we die and are confronted with a reality that is impossible to refute.

How'd I do? Can I get an honorary Arminian membership card now?

[ January 21, 2003, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: npetreley ]

 

[Yelsew]

No, I konw that. What I don't think you have reconciled is the idea of Christ paying for all sins for all time. If you believe that, then you must question why anyone goes to hell.

People go to hell because they passively chose to do so by not actively choosing to believe in Jesus the one who atoned for our sins, and justifies us before the Father in Heaven.

For those who believe in Jesus, Jesus Paid for their sins. For those who do not believe in Jesus, they condemn themselves to hell through their unbelief even though their sins were included in the Christ's atonement. It is unbelief that condemns, and belief that Saves...God Said So!

John 3 In context: John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God said it, that settles it!

[ January 21, 2003, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
It is unbelief that condemns, and belief that Saves

Romans 6

20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[4study]

npetreley,

I don't necessarily agree with Yelsew, however, I'm not following your last response in which you cut/paste a section of Romans 6. Would you mind explaining how that scripture responds to Yelsew's quote? Thank you.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by 4study:
npetreley,

I don't necessarily agree with Yelsew, however, I'm not following your last response in which you cut/paste a section of Romans 6. Would you mind explaining how that scripture responds to Yelsew's quote? Thank you.

Because it does not say, "Those things used to result in death, and the wages of sin used to be death, but now that all sin has been atoned for, all you need to do is believe because the only sin left is one of unbelief!"

 

[4study]

npetrely,

Yes, Romans 6:20-23 does not say that. Yet I don’t understand how it directly applies to Yeslew’s comment. Aren’t you taking Romans 6 out of context?

 

[Yelsew]

Yelsew is not asking or demanding that you agree with Him. BUT, If you do not agree with Jesus, you be in BIG trouble...boy!

Just to put things in perspective, I trust the words of Jesus over the words of Paul any day. Jesus is the author of life, the Justifier of believers, the object of my faith, and the redeemer of sinners...He is God! The whole thing is HIS PLAN!

Paul is just a preacher! A good 'un mind ya, but still, just a preacher!

John 3:12-18 "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Paul never said it any clearer than Jesus does right here!

Your argument is not with Yelsew, but with God!

Belief saves, unbelief condemns!

Notice please that Jesus did not say Belief, Plus (anything) saves, or that anything or anyone else saves. It is not a math problem! It is a life or death decision that each individual must make for him/herself using his/her own free will!

Jesus clearly states that man must believe, in order to have eternal life. So the author of life gave man a choice to make and the equipment with which to make that choice, and it is for any, all, Totality, every, whosoever, all of humanity, etc.; not for just some, or them that gets voted into office.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Yes Npetreley, you are using Romans 6:20-23 out of context. Verse one sets the tone!

[ January 22, 2003, 02:13 AM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Latreia,

A person cannot become a child of God without faith in Jesus. I thought you knew the ABC's of the Gospel. Sorry.

The Divine provision for the sin of unbelief is provided for every sinner. [I John 2:2] Unbelief will ultimately take a person to Hell. [Revelation 20:15] Believing in Jesus brings about our justification. [John 3:16; Hebrews 2:9 d; Hebrews 4:2 c & d].

 

[Bible-belted]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Latreia,

A person cannot become a child of God without faith in Jesus. I thought you knew the ABC's of the Gospel. Sorry.

The Divine provision for the sin of unbelief is provided for every sinner. [I John 2:2] Unbelief will ultimately take a person to Hell. [Revelation 20:15] Believing in Jesus brings about our justification. [John 3:16; Hebrews 2:9 d; Hebrews 4:2 c & d].

Ray,

I'll accept your apology for the condescending remark. In future though you should strrive to live up to the learning you claim to have and simply not post such.

I do know the ABCs of the gospel. Indeed I know that election precedes faith. Apparantly you ae unaware of this.

Still' I await a repsonse to the question. Where does the Gospel teach that some aspects of the atonement are received without faith and others are, and that some sins are forgiven without repentance while some require repentance.

If you cannot answer those directly, I will of course understand.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Yelsew is not asking or demanding that you agree with Him. BUT, If you do not agree with Jesus, you be in BIG trouble...boy!

I agree. I can't help but wonder what it will be like for those who stand in front of Jesus and insist that they chose Him of their own free will. Would such a thing be terrifying to behold or just humorous? I honestly don't know.

 

[npetreley]

Yelsew, there are other ways of understanding that verse without causing contradictions with other verses. For example:

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned:

Why is he not condemned? Because his sins are forgiven.

but he that believeth not is condemned already

Why is he condemned already? Because his sins are not forgiven. Why aren't his sins forgiven?

because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[shilo]

I do know the ABCs of the gospel. Indeed I know that election precedes faith. Apparantly you ae unaware of this.

If that is true then how did Cornelius, who was not elect.. saved..regenerated..ect...able to seek and have faith in God?? it is Quite obvious he did..he fasted, prayed and God told him he had heard his prayer..

I would not be so condesending if I were you especially when you don't line up with scripture.

[ January 22, 2003, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: shilo ]

 

[shilo]

I can't help but wonder what it will be like for those who stand in front of Jesus and insist that they chose Him of their own free will. Would such a thing be terrifying to behold or just humorous? I honestly don't know.

God will welcome them into heaven..

It would be more terrifying to stand in front of God claiming the doctrines of Calvin.

[ January 22, 2003, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: shilo ]

 

[Bible-belted]

Originally posted by shilo:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I do know the ABCs of the gospel. Indeed I know that election precedes faith. Apparantly you ae unaware of this.

If that is true then how did Cornelius, who was not elect..nor saved..regenerated..ect...able to have faith in God?? it is Quite obvious he did..he fasted, prayed and God told him he had heard his prayer..

I would not be so condesending if I were you especially when you don't line up with scripture.</font>[/QUOTE]Mark 13:20. Jesus speaks of future elct persons as being already elect. Obviously then election precedes faith.

I line up with Scriture just fine thanks.

As for Cornelius, there is no contradiction here. He obviouly was elect since he believed and was God-fearing. Faith is the evidence of election, not the ground of it.

 

[shilo]

Mark 13:20. Jesus speaks of future elct persons as being already elect. Obviously then election precedes faith.

I line up with Scriture just fine thanks.

As for Cornelius, there is no contradiction here. He obviouly was elect since he believed and was God-fearing. Faith is the evidence of election, not the ground of it.

Mark 13 is refering to ISRAEL not the church. Get your context Correct.

NO you don't line up with scripture..

Cornelius was NOT saved..So says Acts 11:14.. Try again

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by shilo:
It would be more terrifying to stand in front of God claiming the doctrines of Calvin.

I wasn't talking about reciting doctrines.. What I had in mind was a one-on-one more along the lines of:

1. "Thank you, Jesus, for offering me the free gift of savlation according to your love and mercy. I don't know what good there was in me that I would choose you of my own free will, but I'm so glad I did."

2. "I don't know why you chose me, since there was nothing good in me that would commend me to you, but thank you for choosing to pour your love and mercy upon me."

I don't know if anything like the above will ever happen, since I really don't think we have any idea what the moment will be like when we stand face-to-face with Jesus. But I'm having trouble understanding why the latter would be a terrifying experience.

 

[Yelsew]

I do know the ABCs of the gospel. Indeed I know that election precedes faith. Apparantly you ae unaware of this.

Wrong, according to Jesus. UNLESS, you believe that "Whosoever believeth" makes one "elected". IF so, when did election take place? That's right, AT the point of belief!

I agree. I can't help but wonder what it will be like for those who stand in front of Jesus and insist that they chose Him of their own free will. Would such a thing be terrifying to behold or just humorous? I honestly don't know.

I believe that standing before Jesus and hearing him say, "Well done my good and faithful servant..." will be the greatest moment in a man's existence. To Hear Jesus say to the Father, "Father, let me present my brother who chose me of his own free will, as you know father, he was not coerced or compelled, but rather freely chose me to be his lord. He is my friend." And to Hear the Father pronounce sentence, "Life without possibility of parole". My gracious what a wonderful thought!

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned:
------------------------------------------------------

Why is he not condemned? Because his sins are forgiven.

NO! Read Jesus! He is not condemned because he believed on even the NAME of Jesus.

but he that believeth not is condemned already
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why is he condemned already? Because his sins are not forgiven. Why aren't his sins forgiven?

NO AGAIN! READ JESUS! He that believeth is not condemned! Belief in Jesus the SON OF GOD prevents condemnation!

because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

He is CONDEMNED!

READ JESUS! You do believe that Jesus is the SON OF GOD don't you? Are you going to believe God or are you going to rely on man...Paul, Peter, James, etc. who each, on his own had to make the same decision you do, to believe or not believe, to live or die!