Unconditional Election And the Invincible Purpose of God

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
People go to hell because they passively chose to do so by not actively choosing to believe in Jesus the one who atoned for our sins, and justifies us before the Father in Heaven.

I wouldn't argue with that.

For those who believe in Jesus, Jesus Paid for their sins. For those who do not believe in Jesus, they condemn themselves to hell through their unbelief even though their sins were included in the Christ's atonement. It is unbelief that condemns, and belief that Saves...God Said So!

So Jesus paid for their sins? Is unbelief not a sin? If it is not, then why do they go to hell for something that is not a sin? IF it is a sin, then how can you say thatJesus paid for their sins since this sin is not included??

It simply shows an inconsistency on your part that cannot be supported by Scripture. It is convenient to say that man does not go to hell for sins but rather for unbelief. But that doesn't help because unbelief is sin. IF JEsus paid for all sin for all time, then unbelief must be included and God cannot send people to hell for sin that has been paid for.

But in fact, Scripture contradicts you by teaching that man does go to hell for their sin (Rev 21:8; Rev 20:11-15; etc). These verses are directly contradictory to your statement. As you said,

God said it, that settles it!

At least for me ...

 

[Yelsew]

So Jesus paid for their sins? Is unbelief not a sin? If it is not, then why do they go to hell for something that is not a sin? IF it is a sin, then how can you say thatJesus paid for their sins since this sin is not included??

'If unbelief is a sin'? Do you believe it is?

The only one hurt by your unbelief is you!

The only one you sin against is you!

If you don't believe, what do you care about sin?

If you care about sin, to whom do you confess if you don't believe?

Jesus said it right! Belief Saves, Unbelief Condemns!

With belief comes conviction of sins, with confession of sins comes forgiveness of sins.

Jesus payment for the sins of the world does not exhonerate the sinner from the guilt of committing the sin. For example: You can pay your son's traffic fines, but that does not exhonerate your son of the guilt of breaking the law. If you are a Just father, you will exact some form of toll on your son to teach the lesson that needs to be learned. If your son is repentant, you may simply say, go and sin no more.

 

[Bible-belted]

Shilo,

Mark 13 is not about Israel alone. That's bad interpretation all around.

At any rate it is not relevant. As long as Jesus is speaking of elect persons who are not yet born, regardless of whether they be Jew or Gentile, he is talking about election preceding faith. That is what you must deal with.

 

[Bible-belted]

Yelsew,

All sin is ultimately against God. There is no such thing as a sin which only hurts you. You are really reaching!

And no one is saying that ubnbelief does not condemn. But that is not the whole truth either. Original Sin is sufficient to merit judgment.

What you still have to deal with is the questions put to you. You have to deal with the inconsistnecy in your position, and you have to deal with questions of where the Bible teahces that some benefots of th atonement are applied automatically and others are not. And that is what you have to argue of youwish to say that unbelief alone is what condemns. And you have to say THAT if you want to argue in any meaningful way that Christ paid for the sins of all people in a way diferent from the Calvanist.

 

[Yelsew]

Latreia,

What you still have to deal with is the questions put to you.

Why is this an inquisition?

I have answered the questions, but just as Jesus does not force you to believe, I cannot force you to believe either. You believe what you want to believe, and all that is outside your belief boundary is unacceptable to you! The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth! So help me God!

You have to deal with the inconsistnecy in your position, and you have to deal with questions of where the Bible teahces that some benefots of th atonement are applied automatically and others are not.

If that is what you believe, you have not been very convincing in your belief.

The Christ atoned Once-For-All, meaning one time for all times and one man for all men! I'd say that was pretty consistent, and quite automatic since it is an finished work of God for mankind! Tell me what you don't understand about that.

And that is what you have to argue of youwish to say that unbelief alone is what condemns.

Not my words, but the words of Jesus! You know, the one you say you believe in, yet do not believe what he says! You take great pride in using the words of men just like us to prove spiritual matters for which you have no grasp!

And you have to say THAT if you want to argue in any meaningful way that Christ paid for the sins of all people in a way diferent from the Calvanist.

Jesus was and is quite different from Calvinists, and from what you say, the twain shall never meet! Jesus' death on the cross atoned for the sins of the world, but that atonement did not take away the consequence of sin. Men still die which we are told is the wage for sin. If the Christ's atonement did away with the consequences of sin, man would live forever in this natural world, yet we remain restricted in years to 120, and few there are that reach the limit.

 

[Bible-belted]

Yelsew,

Why is this an inquisition?

I have answered the questions, but just as Jesus does not force you to believe, I cannot force you to believe either. You believe what you want to believe, and all that is outside your belief boundary is unacceptable to you! The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth! So help me God!

It isn't an inquisition. But when you are questioned it is reasonable to expect an answer to the question.

And unfortunately, you have not done that. You have made responses, but none of them actually address the questions. You address siade issues, but not the core questions.

If that is what you believe, you have not been very convincing in your belief.

It isn't my belief. it is yours. Tyat is where your thinking goes. And you have not accounted for the inconsistency with Scripture.

The Christ atoned Once-For-All, meaning one time for all times and one man for all men! I'd say that was pretty consistent, and quite automatic since it is an finished work of God for mankind! Tell me what you don't understand about that.

It does not tell me how some benefits of the atonement get applied without belief but some do, how some sins are covered without repentance and some are. The question of the once for all nature of the atonement is not in question at all. Hence you make a response but goive no answer.

Not my words, but the words of Jesus! You know, the one you say you believe in, yet do not believe what he says! You take great pride in using the words of men just like us to prove spiritual matters for which you have no grasp!

Your interpretation of the words of Jesus are not liekly as they set up several contradictions, which you do not address. Simply asseting that Jesus says this only means that you assert that Jesus contradicts the rest of the Bible. You seem to have no grasp of the inconsistency of your position.

Jesus was and is quite different from Calvinists, and from what you say, the twain shall never meet!

And yet you argued for a view of atonement that is calvnaistic, although you try to inconsitently shoehorn it into an arminain theology.

And through it all you STILL have not answered a single question!

 

[shilo]

At any rate it is not relevant. As long as Jesus is speaking of elect persons who are not yet born, regardless of whether they be Jew or Gentile, he is talking about election preceding faith. That is what you must deal with.

First of all it isn't individuals but ONE NATION. that Passage is talking about them in the tribulation Period.. context...

Israel is God's elect Nation. Isa. 45.4

......And if you would like to try to continue arguing that election proceeds faith..

God has said point blank that Israel is his elect..yet not all had faith and some died and went to hell..How could that be if you are correct?

As I said again..Cornelius was an unsaved Gentile who Had faith in God..Your whole theory IS WRONG and UNBIBLICAL.

[ January 22, 2003, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: shilo ]

 

[Yelsew]

Latria,

And through it all you STILL have not answered a single question

IN YOUR OPINION!

 

[shilo]

It does not tell me how some benefits of the atonement get applied without belief but some do, how some sins are covered without repentance and some are. The question of the once for all nature of the atonement is not in question at all. Hence you make a response but goive no answer

Lets Review.

Jn1:29 Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world

Jn 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever Believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Jn. 2:2 He is the propitiation of our sins: And NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2nd Peter 2:1 Even denying the Lord that BOUGHT them.

Heb 10:29 OF how much soer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden inder foot the Son of God, and Hath counted the Blood covenant, wherewith he was santified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

the Gift of God Is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Sin debt was paid the scriptures make that Clear. However..In order for you to get your sin forgiven you have to BELIEVE and Recieve the GIFT. Jn. 1:12

That is what a Gift is you did nothing to merit the gift, you don't deserve the gift yet it was given..

Jesus paid the sin debt of the world..A GIFT.

you have to recieve that Gift in order for it to be applied to you.

If not, you die in your sin.

Unbelief is what sends a man to hell. becaue he didn't get recieve his free gift that was there for him to have.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I don't know why you try to make it complicated. it's so simple 5 year old children understand it.

[ January 22, 2003, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: shilo ]

 

[Yelsew]

Your interpretation of the words of Jesus are not liekly as they set up several contradictions, which you do not address. Simply asseting that Jesus says this only means that you assert that Jesus contradicts the rest of the Bible. You seem to have no grasp of the inconsistency of your position.

God says you (man) must believe in Jesus, and that believing is rewarded with eternal life. He goes on to say that the person who does not believe condemns himself through his unbelief. Now please tell me what is missing? What more did Jesus (God) say was necessary to receiving eternal life (salvation). He used words like "whosoever", and 'if any man hear, and others. He did not place limitations on who could or would, can or will. He did not designate any specific group to be the only eligible's or those who would be at some point compelled or coerced to believe. The door is open to all, "red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight". Who in their right mind would teach their children that only certain people of all the people on earth will have an opportunity to be saved? None but a Calvinist!

If the Words of Jesus set up several contradictions, GUESS WHO IS WRONG! It ain't Jesus! Furthermore, Guess who is misreading the bible? The one who sees a contradiction, that's who!

Now I suggest that you start using some of what God gave you to come to understanding the truth, and quit quibbling over jots and tittles of scripture.

 

[Ray Berrian]

For those how doubt that God has given human beings a 'free will,' please, look at {The Arminian Stumper} pg. 6 January 21st. 2003 Time 3:48.

For example: Isaiah 66:3 in speaking of the Jews God said, ' . . . they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.'

Almighty God did not force their lives into their iniquities, they freely did it all by their selves. Only after their 'abominations' did God ' . . . choose their delusions . . . . because when He called, none did answer . . . . ' . . . and THEY CHOSE that which He delighted not.'

Their wills were not bound, they were free to make their own decisions.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
For example: Isaiah 66:3 in speaking of the Jews God said, ' . . . they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.'

Their wills were not bound, they were free to make their own decisions.

Funny you should use that section of Isaiah.

Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.

Sounds like fallen mankind to me.

4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them;

Sounds like what we deserve, and God is doing it, not us.

because when I called,1 none did answer;

God called, none answered. None. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Goose egg. None. Not a single person with "free will" chose to answer. There's how "free" your free will is.

when I spake, they did not hear:

I wonder why not?

but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose in which I delighted not.

Sounds like fallen mankind to me.

Sorry, but I fail to see the free will in any of the above.

 

[Bible-belted]

Yelsew,

Nice dodge. But no one wil buy it.

I do read Jesus who called people yet to be born elect, meaning that elction precedes faith. Even from Jesus lips Yelsew, and that without the horror you commit to the Word of God when you imply that we should pit one part of it (the gospels) against another (the epistles).

Such is the vanity of your position that you would seek, not to rightly divide the Word of truth, but merely to divide it, the better to conquer it with your huanistic philosophy.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
For those how doubt that God has given human beings a 'free will,' please, look at {The Arminian Stumper} pg. 6 January 21st. 2003 Time 3:48.

For example: Isaiah 66:3 in speaking of the Jews God said, ' . . . they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.'

Almighty God did not force their lives into their iniquities, they freely did it all by their selves. Only after their 'abominations' did God ' . . . choose their delusions . . . . because when He called, none did answer . . . . ' . . . and THEY CHOSE that which He delighted not.'

Their wills were not bound, they were free to make their own decisions.

Ray, look at the other post, I do respond to you there. But let me say something about your quote here:

Calvinist don't disagree that men choose to follow their delusions. And we don't disagree that men left to their own nature will resist and refuse the things of God. People refuse the gospel message all the time. That is not where we disagree. We disagree at another point. Let's debate that point please, and stop restating what we all already agree with.

This is where we disagree: Man cannot resist the effectual calling of God. They can and do, by their nature, resist everything else about God and his Word. But they cannot keep from being born again, if God, their father so desires for them to be born. (just like natural birth) The verses that you choose are merely examples of people acting in their fallen nature as Romans 3:10-12 explains, "No one seeks...understands...all turn away" Your verses are examples of men turning away thus proving our point of Total Depravity, not your point of Resistable Grace.

Nice try, please play again soon.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Latreia:
Yelsew,

Nice dodge. But no one wil buy it.

I do read Jesus who called people yet to be born elect, meaning that elction precedes faith. Even from Jesus lips Yelsew, and that without the horror you commit to the Word of God when you imply that we should pit one part of it (the gospels) against another (the epistles).

Such is the vanity of your position that you would seek, not to rightly divide the Word of truth, but merely to divide it, the better to conquer it with your huanistic philosophy.

I read that Jesus calls people to be BORN AGAIN, not born elect! John Chapter 3, Jesus in discussion with Nicodemus said to wit, Know ye not that ye must be BORN AGAIN?

King James Version
Word or phrase: ELECT
(Matthew 24:22)
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved:
but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
(Matthew 24:24)
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great
signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the
very elect.
(Matthew 24:31)
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall
gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the
other.
(Mark 13:20)
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved:
but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
(Mark 13:22)
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and
wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
(Mark 13:27)
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from
the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of
heaven.
(Luke 18:7)
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him,
though he bear long with them?
(Romans 8:33)
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that
justifieth.
(Colossians 3:12)
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies,
kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
(1 Timothy 5:21)
21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels,
that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing
nothing by partiality.
(2 Timothy 2:10)
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also
obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
(Titus 1:1)
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith
of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
(1 Peter 1:2)
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification
of the spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace
unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
(1 Peter 2:6)
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief
corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be
confounded.
(2 John 1:1)
1 The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and
not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;
(2 John 1:13)
13 The children of thy elect sister greet thee. Amen.

Jesus does not use the term "elect" in relation to being born!

So who is it that is obliterating the truth?

 

[Ray Berrian]

npetreley,

Just because most or even all did not come to Christ does not deny the fact that He gave them the occasion to trust in Jehovah Lord. The 'bondage of the will' did not willfully by God's determinism, damn them forever in Hell. No, the Bible says, ' . . .THEY have CHOSEN their own ways . . . ' [Isaiah 66:3 h] Here is a marked indication of human 'freedom of the will.'

If God was trying to project His Calvinistic flair He would have said, "I have made them choose My ways . . . ' [Isaiah 66:3 h] but He did not say this.

And if God ordains all human actions even including the sinner's sinning, then we find God becoming less than honest when He says in [Isaiah 66:4 g & h] ' . . . and THEY CHOSE that which I delighted not.' Also, under 66:4 g God did not say "I made them do evil before My eyes,' but rather He said, 'THEY did evil before My eyes, and CHOSE {by free will} that which I delighted not.'

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
I read that Jesus calls people to be BORN AGAIN, not born elect! John Chapter 3, Jesus in discussion with Nicodemus said to wit, Know ye not that ye must be BORN AGAIN?

Jesus didn't call anyone to be born from above. He stated that you must be born from above. I could just as easily say you must have wings if you want to fly. That isn't telling you to grow wings, it's stating a simple fact.

Why do free will advocates lean so heavily on John 3? Do you not read the whole section? Let's look at it:

1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."

That's not a call, that's a simple statement of fact. No one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born from above. Nicodemus doesn't get it it. He probably thinks it's a command, too, because he wonders how he can accomplish this feat.

4 "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

So what does Jesus answer? The same thing.

5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Spirit gives birth to spirit? How does one choose to get spiritually born through free will?

7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You [plural] must be born again.'

Notice the plural "you"? Jesus must be talking about a principle here, not about how Nicodemus personally can be saved.

8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

The wind (spirit) blows wherever it pleases? This is an extremely inappropriate metaphor if Jesus is teaching free will. Rather, He would say something like, "The wind blows everywhere, but men choose of their own free will to breathe it in." But that's not at all what Jesus says. The wind blows where it pleases -- Being born of the spirit is something that occurs wherever the spirit pleases to give birth, not wherever men please to accept it.

9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.

He still doesn't get it.

10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

To paraphrase, "Nicodemus, you don't even seem to understand the earthly things I say. So if you ain't got the spirit (if you haven't been born from above) how can you expect to get this spiritual stuff?"

13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Again, a very simple fact. Everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. It doesn't say everyone who chooses to believe, it says everyone who believes. That's as simple as saying, I'm going to order pizza so that everyone with an appetite will eat. Jesus will be lifted up so that everyone who believes may have eternal life.

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Again, whosoever believes in Him will have eternal life. Whoever is hungry will eat pizza. It doesn't say anything about HOW one believes or WHY one is hungry. It states the fact, and that's all.

17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

More of the same. Whoever is this way will go this way. Whoever is that way will go that way. Simple facts. But here's the clincher:

21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

Done through God, not through his own free will.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Just because most or even all did not come to Christ does not deny the fact that He gave them the occasion to trust in Jehovah Lord.

No disagreement there, except that it was clearly all, not most.

The 'bondage of the will' did not willfully by God's determinism, damn them forever in Hell.

I don't get your reasoning here at all. We're the way we are because of the fall. God doesn't need to do anything to our will to send us to hell, since we're already willfully driving there, pedal to the metal. God may add a little nitro to the gas in order to accomplish His will, but it's not like He's changing our fates by doing so.

Again, we are the way we are because of the fall. Is God ultimately responsible for our state? Yes, since He foreknew it and allowed it. But why would God essentially bind us all over to disobedience? To damn us to hell? Quite the opposite.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Now that may seem rather odd to you, but then God's ways are not our ways. That's the whole problem with trying to deduce free will from a logical defense of God's love and righteousness. We can't see it from His perspective, so it makes no sense at all to depart from scripture in order to justify our conclusions about things like free will, because by doing so we abandon the revealed truth for our logical "truth", which is actually not truth at all.

 

[Ray Berrian]

npetreley,

I agree with your view until you get to the word, 'believe.' No new birth has ever taken place without trusting in Jesus Christ for salvation; this inner work of eternal life is all of God, but believing is the fulcrum on which the experience turns. It is true that God does not have to change the will to send the sinner to Hell. That is why Luther was wrong about God readdressing the situation and binding the will, as in Bondage of the will.

Pizza: You buy pizza for a party but not all are required to eat it. The other day a Lehigh University I met with my wife for lunch. Usually it is pizza, but on that day I ate Strombole. God offers a changed life of grace to all who believe; everything hinges on whether that person believes and trusts in Christ as noted in John 3:15 and 18. We might hope that all will eat pizza and partake of everlasting life.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
For those how doubt that God has given human beings a 'free will,' please, look at {The Arminian Stumper} pg. 6 January 21st. 2003 Time 3:48.

For example: Isaiah 66:3 in speaking of the Jews God said, ' . . . they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.'

Almighty God did not force their lives into their iniquities, they freely did it all by their selves. Only after their 'abominations' did God ' . . . choose their delusions . . . . because when He called, none did answer . . . . ' . . . and THEY CHOSE that which He delighted not.'

Their wills were not bound, they were free to make their own decisions.

Thank you for confirming what we believe Ray. As I have said many times, sinners have a free will to do anything they want to do. What you have said here is exactly what we believe. God is not forcing anyone to sin; they sin of their own free will and desires.