Unconditional Election

[thjplgvp]

I once asked on this forum how a Calvinist knows he is saved. I was told the Calvinist gets saved just like anyone else they repent and ask for forgiveness. Fair enough answer. Today I would ask the Calvinist why he repents, and why does he ask Christ to save him if he is unconditionally elected from the foundation of the world. If a Calvinist asks to be saved is he not choosing to be saved and is that not directly against his doctrine of unconditional election? If the Calvinist does not ask to be saved and forgiven how does he know he is one of the elect?

Just curious

thjplgvp

 

[Iconoclast]

"thjplgvp

I once asked on this forum how a Calvinist knows he is saved. I was told the Calvinist gets saved just like anyone else they repent and ask for forgiveness. Fair enough answer.

ok....

Today I would ask the Calvinist why he repents, and why does he ask Christ to save him if he is unconditionally elected from the foundation of the world

Good question.....God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.Acts17
God has indeed ordained every single person who He intends to save....to be saved ...In Time using the meads He has ordained...
Those means include.....the preaching and teaching of Divine truth, reading the scriptures, the verbal and non verbal witness of other sheep, works of providence, believing prayer, all orchestrated by the unseen work of the Holy Spirit, convicting and effectually drawing that sinner to Jesus.
While God has revealed the fact of individual election unto salvation as truth...he also has given revelation of the means that will not fail...God in Love drawing a multitude to HIMSELF.

. If a Calvinist asks to be saved is he not choosing to be saved and is that not directly against his doctrine of unconditional election

?

No...it is part of the teaching....thy people will be WILLING...in the day of THY power,psalm 110.
The sinner who was previously unwilling and unable, is made willing and able by God's everlasting LOVE.

If the Calvinist does not ask to be saved and forgiven how does he know he is one of the elect?

There is no such person....

Just curious

good questions

thjplgvp[/QUOTE]

 

[thjplgvp]

Thank you.

 

[tyndale1946]

"thjplgvp

ok....


Good question.....God has commanded all men everywhere to repent and believe the gospel.Acts17
God has indeed ordained every single person who He intends to save....to be saved ...In Time using the meads He has ordained...
Those means include.....the preaching and teaching of Divine truth, reading the scriptures, the verbal and non verbal witness of other sheep, works of providence, believing prayer, all orchestrated by the unseen work of the Holy Spirit, convicting and effectually drawing that sinner to Jesus.
While God has revealed the fact of individual election unto salvation as truth...he also has given revelation of the means that will not fail...God in Love drawing a multitude to HIMSELF.

?

No...it is part of the teaching....thy people will be WILLING...in the day of THY power,psalm 110.
The sinner who was previously unwilling and unable, is made willing and able by God's everlasting LOVE.


There is no such person....

good questions

thjplgvp

[/QUOTE]

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us... Unconditional Election is a scriptural truth and it is all in the hands of God... Brother Glen

 

[Iconoclast]

Thank you.

TJP....
many people have not been properly instructed on these teachings.....sadly in our day some who do not understand, or who struggle with some aspects of the teaching....oppose themselves by suppressing the truths that God has given to be a blessing and comfort to His Church.
You are doing the correct thing by asking questions in an effert to understand the position better.
If you believe it or not is between you and God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Man, as unregenerate people, are rotten to the core, fallen, ruined, rotted, dead in their transgressions and sins. As long as they are in that state, the gospel has no effect, as they willingly reject any external stimuli, such as preaching, teaching, witnessing, &c. This is why the doctrine of regeneration not being taught properly causes any and all confusion. When God regenerates a sinner, a new heart is given unto them, their blinded eyes are opened, their deafened ears are unstopped, and they exercise faith and repentance, which are gifts of God given at the point of regeneration. Unless God does His part in regenerating a sinner unto life, they will have no desire to seek Him.

 

[tyndale1946]

Man, as unregenerate people, are rotten to the core, fallen, ruined, rotted, dead in their transgressions and sins. As long as they are in that state, the gospel has no effect, as they willingly reject any external stimuli, such as preaching, teaching, witnessing, &c. This is why the doctrine of regeneration not being taught properly causes any and all confusion. When God regenerates a sinner, a new heart is given unto them, their blinded eyes are opened, their deafened ears are unstopped, and they exercise faith and repentance, which are gifts of God given at the point of regeneration. Unless God does His part in regenerating a sinner unto life, they will have no desire to seek Him.

Oh yes I agree my Brother in the Lord, Total Depravity is the first point of the T.U.L.I.P doctrine that the Calvinist Brethren believe... I know you believe as I do and others do that it is all the work and purpose of Jesus Christ... But Roman 8 does not stop at verse 34... Look at the beauty of what follows!

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.... Glory... Glory... "GLORY"!... To our Lord, Savior and King, Jesus The Christ... AMEN!... Brother Glen

 

[Rippon]

Man, as unregenerate people, are rotten to the core, fallen, ruined, rotted, dead in their transgressions and sins. As long as they are in that state, the gospel has no effect, as they willingly reject any external stimuli, such as preaching, teaching, witnessing, &c. This is why the doctrine of regeneration not being taught properly causes any and all confusion. When God regenerates a sinner, a new heart is given unto them, their blinded eyes are opened, their deafened ears are unstopped, and they exercise faith and repentance, which are gifts of God given at the point of regeneration.

I fully agree.

Unless God does His part in regenerating a sinner unto life, they will have no desire to seek Him.

I would reword the above:
"Unless God raises a sinner from spiritual death unto spiritual life (regeneration)--that sinner will have no desire to seek Him."

 

[thjplgvp]

It is interesting that you mention regeneration as a precondition of salvation would you mind posting the scriptures you use to teach this doctrine. Apart from Titus 3:5 and Matt. 19:28 I can find no mention regeneration in scripture let alone a scripture that suggests regeneration before salvation. Without derailing my own post I would like to see your scriptural defense of this view.

Thank you
thjplgvp

 

[tyndale1946]

It is interesting that you mention regeneration as a precondition of salvation would you mind posting the scriptures you use to teach this doctrine. Apart from Titus 3:5 and Matt. 19:28 I can find no mention regeneration in scripture let alone a scripture that suggests regeneration before salvation. Without derailing my own post I would like to see your scriptural defense of this view.

Thank you
thjplgvp

Here is a sermon by Spurgeon on "The Softening Of The Heart" if you care to take a look... I feel it will answer your question... Brother Glen

http://www.angelfire.com/va/sovereigngrace/howheartssoftened1.html

 

[SovereignGrace]

It is interesting that you mention regeneration as a precondition of salvation would you mind posting the scriptures you use to teach this doctrine. Apart from Titus 3:5 and Matt. 19:28 I can find no mention regeneration in scripture let alone a scripture that suggests regeneration before salvation. Without derailing my own post I would like to see your scriptural defense of this view.

Thank you
thjplgvp

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. [Eph. 2:1-5]

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. [Col. 2:13,14]


While we were dead in sins, He quicken(regenerated{made us alive}) in Christ.

 

[heisrisen]

Man, as unregenerate people, are rotten to the core, fallen, ruined, rotted, dead in their transgressions and sins. As long as they are in that state, the gospel has no effect, as they willingly reject any external stimuli, such as preaching, teaching, witnessing, &c. This is why the doctrine of regeneration not being taught properly causes any and all confusion. When God regenerates a sinner, a new heart is given unto them, their blinded eyes are opened, their deafened ears are unstopped, and they exercise faith and repentance, which are gifts of God given at the point of regeneration. Unless God does His part in regenerating a sinner unto life, they will have no desire to seek Him.

And you forgot God gives us his spirit to dwell within us. We are sealed by the spirit when we are born again. That's what makes us a new creature in Christ.

 

[thjplgvp]

That is indeed a far stretch for support of your doctrine to take a general piece of conversation concerning his affirmation that the Colossians were saved and had had their sins forgiven and turning that one verse into a complete doctrine. Without being mean I cannot accept your reasoning at this time.

Concerning Ephesians it is the same argument in taking a past action and making it say something that is not there.

While I thank you for your time in preparing at this time I cannot accept these offered proofs.

Thanks again for your time.

thjplgvp

 

[salzer mtn]

It is interesting that you mention regeneration as a precondition of salvation would you mind posting the scriptures you use to teach this doctrine. Apart from Titus 3:5 and Matt. 19:28 I can find no mention regeneration in scripture let alone a scripture that suggests regeneration before salvation. Without derailing my own post I would like to see your scriptural defense of this view.

Thank you
thjplgvp

11 Thess 2:13 God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

 

[TCassidy]

a scripture that suggests regeneration before salvation.

Regeneration is not before salvation. Regeneration (born again) IS salvation.

Your post says, in effect, "salvation before salvation."

 

[tyndale1946]

Regeneration is not before salvation. Regeneration (born again) IS salvation.

Your post says, in effect, "salvation before salvation."

Jesus Christ in his declaration to Nicodemus:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

According to the Sovereign Grace of Almighty God you have no more control over your being born again as you have over the wind... No mater what your belief it is ALL a work of God only... Brother Glen

 

[thjplgvp]

Mr. Cassidy that was the point I was trying to make. Since in my mind the scriptures teach that regeneration and salvation are the same why would someone misapply regeneration as saying it needs to occur before salvation. I understand that Total Depravity enters into the conversation because if one is unable to respond to God, how does that person get saved unless there is a work that takes place between unable and able. Hence the suggestion by Calvinists that regeneration is a work that takes place before salvation. This doctrine does not seem possible unless one assigns another meaning to regeneration apart from salvation and at that point it seems the argument is with scripture and not a doctrinal position.

thjplgvp

 

[InTheLight]

Mr. Cassidy that was the point I was trying to make. Since in my mind the scriptures teach that regeneration and salvation are the same why would someone misapply regeneration as saying it needs to occur before salvation. I understand that Total Depravity enters into the conversation because if one is unable to respond to God, how does that person get saved unless there is a work that takes place between unable and able. Hence the suggestion by Calvinists that regeneration is a work that takes place before salvation. This doctrine does not seem possible unless one assigns another meaning to regeneration apart from salvation and at that point it seems the argument is with scripture and not a doctrinal position.

thjplgvp

Indeed. Calvinists have said (on BB and elsewhere) that regeneration precedes salvation, and sometimes there can be a gap of time between regeneration and actual salvation, of minutes, hours, days, even weeks, or more.

 

[TCassidy]

Hence the suggestion by Calvinists that regeneration is a work that takes place before salvation.

Please post any such a statement or even a suggestion that any Calvinist believes any such thing.

This doctrine does not seem possible unless one assigns another meaning to regeneration apart from salvation and at that point it seems the argument is with scripture and not a doctrinal position.

I agree. It does seem as if you have assigned a different meaning to regeneration than the bible teaches and Particular Baptists believe.

A man is lost in trespass and sin. Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

He hears the gospel call, but he hates God and considers Him an enemy. He not only will not, he cannot respond. Romans 8:7 "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

But God has other plans. 2 Timothy 2:10 "Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

God then regenerates his sin sick heart, removes the old, cold, dead heart of stone and gives him a brand new, living, loving, believing heart of faith. Ezekiel 36:26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

And that new heart is no longer at enmity against God but rather, believes the gospel, accepts Christ, and repents of his sin. He is now a new born babe in Christ. Not through his own works of (self) righteousness, but via the unmerited Grace of a Sovereign God.

Where in there do you get the idea that regeneration and salvation are different things happening at a different time?

 

[TCassidy]

Indeed. Calvinists have said (on BB and elsewhere) that regeneration precedes salvation, and sometimes there can be a gap of time between regeneration and actual salvation, of minutes, hours, days, even weeks, or more.

Please quote that for me or point me to the thread and post. Thank you.