Unconditional Salvation

[Charlie24]

Also. OSAS can mean that you remain saved no matter what you do, even lapsing into unbelief. But it can also mean that with the help of the Holy Spirit you will persevere and live out a Christian life. In other words a Christian life is required, but inevitable for one truly saved. So it might look different. In other words, the Reformed might say you are saved from apostacy, while a pure OSAS free grace Baptist would say you would remained saved in spite of apostacy.

Disagreement with eternal security can mean different things also. It can mean that if certain additional works or sacraments are not done you will not be saved and justification is not a sure thing until judgment day. It can mean that doing certain serious sins can disqualify you and put you in a lost condition. Or it can mean that sin can be repented of and confessed, and only willful and deliberate falling away or apostacy will result in a loss of salvation, (and this with the understanding that such a scenario may be hypothetical).

We know exactly where osas came from and what it means.

The Calvinist view of election is that God chose man for salvation, man had no choice in the matter, it was determined before the foundation of the world.

Therefore, with it being God's sovereign will, man cannot lose that salvation.

And I think beyond a shadow of a doubt I have proven this is a false teaching!

 

[DaveXR650]

We know exactly where osas came from and what it means.

The Calvinist view of election is that God chose man for salvation, man had no choice in the matter, it was determined before the foundation of the world.

Therefore, with it being God's sovereign will, man cannot lose that salvation.

And I think beyond a shadow of a doubt I have proven this is a false teaching!

That is a line of logic and it does make sense. It even makes sense if you are a traditional Baptist and believe you chose to be saved. Because even then, they believe you are then born again, indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and he keeps you saved and besides you are now a new creature.

But also remember that the Calvinist's are the ones who say justification is by faith alone, but a faith that is never alone (John Owen), and they are the one's who constantly wrote about the essential lifelong work of mortifying sin and the also wrote the most extensive theological literature we have on how apostacy occurs and how to avoid it. When you read that you can tell that they are not talking about OSAS in the same way you are. Maybe you have proved that this is a false teaching but I must have missed it.

 

[JD731]

Also. OSAS can mean that you remain saved no matter what you do, even lapsing into unbelief. But it can also mean that with the help of the Holy Spirit you will persevere and live out a Christian life. In other words a Christian life is required, but inevitable for one truly saved. So it might look different. In other words, the Reformed might say you are saved from apostacy, while a pure OSAS free grace Baptist would say you would remained saved in spite of apostacy.

Disagreement with eternal security can mean different things also. It can mean that if certain additional works or sacraments are not done you will not be saved and justification is not a sure thing until judgment day. It can mean that doing certain serious sins can disqualify you and put you in a lost condition. Or it can mean that sin can be repented of and confessed, and only willful and deliberate falling away or apostacy will result in a loss of salvation, (and this with the understanding that such a scenario may be hypothetical).

Salvation is a BIRTH. It is a birth into the family of God. It is a one time and forever occurrence. It is not a separation of the present family because one retains his body from that first family. That body is a source of a battle for the remainder of the life of the believer. Jesus said of this about this struggle all believers face and Paul tells us something about it here..

Ga 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The flesh has not been redeemed, nor can it be. it must be changed and we as born again Christians, the church age saints who are "in Christ and Christ in them and who are one with Christ are promised we will have a new glorified body like unto the body of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is our blessed hope. This will be a body whereby we can inhabit the heavenlies'.

We have an intercessor seated at the right hand of the Father who has justified us and has given us the gift of eternal life, and Jesus Christ can and does petition for forgiveness of every sin a Christian commits because his blood is the payment for sin..

A man who preaches a works salvation after all Jesus Christ has done for us is suspect as to whether he has ever been saved. I did not say that, it is stated here;

Ga 1:6 ¶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Grace is a gift of salvation and works is another gospel and is some form of self effort of keeping the law and earning it. It is a very serious error. Being accursed is no fun thing.


Php 3:17 ¶ Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are]the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things).
20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

We will not be able to sin in a glorified body and there will not be a struggle.

 

[Charlie24]

That is a line of logic and it does make sense. It even makes sense if you are a traditional Baptist and believe you chose to be saved. Because even then, they believe you are then born again, indwelt with the Holy Spirit, and he keeps you saved and besides you are now a new creature.

But also remember that the Calvinist's are the ones who say justification is by faith alone, but a faith that is never alone (John Owen), and they are the one's who constantly wrote about the essential lifelong work of mortifying sin and the also wrote the most extensive theological literature we have on how apostacy occurs and how to avoid it. When you read that you can tell that they are not talking about OSAS in the same way you are. Maybe you have proved that this is a false teaching but I must have missed it.

I don't deal with it that way, Dave.

I deal with the facts that Baptists believe they have chosen of their own free will to be saved and can't lose that salvation. That is what I've proven to be false doctrine.

I've proven it with undeniable Scripture and the fact of where this doctrine came from, the Calvinists.

 

[DaveXR650]

A man who preaches a works salvation after all Jesus Christ has done for us is suspect as to whether he has ever been saved. I did not say that, it is stated here;

Yes. I agree that the one teaching as in my quote that a system of works or sacraments is teaching a false gospel. The Reformers taught that a person is justified by faith in a declarative sense based on the merits of Christ alone. And they also taught that being "born again" or regenerated means a new principle of life infused into the saved person. And such a person will and must inevitably begin to live this out. Your own next quote illustrates this perfectly:

Php 3:17 ¶ Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are]the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things).

This is active, not passive, and not optional, with the clear statement that someone living like that is showing that they are enemies of the cross of Christ.

You see, I have no problem with OSAS any way you want to explain it theologically. But as those verses above show, anyone using it as an excuse to live a careless life, or indulge in sin, whatever their theology will find no comfort from scripture. Hence the warnings.

 

[DaveXR650]

I don't deal with it that way, Dave.

I deal with the facts that Baptists believe they have chosen of their own free will to be saved and can't lose that salvation. That is what I've proven to be false doctrine.

I've proven it with undeniable Scripture and the fact of where this doctrine came from, the Calvinists.

Charlie, I don't mind you taking those positions and you are as entitled to your opinion as anyone else. All I can say is that for me, my interest in Calvinist writers came because I was not satisfied with the careless Baptist doctrine which I considered a form of antinomianism or easy believism where people who were living in obvious sin or in a careless worldly lifestyle were told only to go back and remember their initial "decision" for Christ and think whether it was sincere. I found more satisfying answers in the writings of the Puritans, whether original or those out of time, like Spurgeon. All Baptists do not do this though but it was the church that I was in.

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie, I don't mind you taking those positions and you are as entitled to your opinion as anyone else. All I can say is that for me, my interest in Calvinist writers came because I was not satisfied with the careless Baptist doctrine which I considered a form of antinomianism or easy believism where people who were living in obvious sin or in a careless worldly lifestyle were told only to go back and remember their initial "decision" for Christ and think whether it was sincere. I found more satisfying answers in the writings of the Puritans, whether original or those out of time, like Spurgeon. All Baptists do not do this though but it was the church that I was in.

You nailed my mission directly on the head, Brother. The perceived "easy believism."

That is the entire purpose of my threads thus far.

The Lord willing, and when I get the time, this is what we will pursue!

 

[kyredneck]

If justification is not by faith alone, what must be added to that faith?

So if one is not justified by faith alone but by works then you must think works are required to be save

Justification by faith ALONE is unscriptural. You’ve literally added to the scripture. Show me, produce one (1) ittsy bittsy teeny weeny verse that states we are justified by our faith ALONE. It doesn’t exist.

 

[MrW]

Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, before God.

Man, however, must SEE the evidence, the proof, and thus must see you change from a thief to one who works a job and gives of his earnings to someone in need.

Thus the need for the Book of James.

Man is justified through faith before God.

Man is vindicated by works before other men.

 

[Charlie24]

Justification by faith ALONE is unscriptural. You’ve literally added to the scripture. Show me, produce one (1) ittsy bitty teeny weeny verse that states we are justified by our faith ALONE.

This is the way God wrote Scripture, some will see and some will not.

The majority of major doctrines can't be written by any single line, but by reading between the lines.

I know my efforts will fail with some, but as the Scriptures says, "My words will not return to me void."

 

[kyredneck]

@Charlie24

So, you’re unable to show me justification by our faith alone from the scriptures, while I can produce scripture that clearly refutes justification by our faith alone.

 

[Charlie24]

@Charlie24

So, you’re unable to show me justification by our faith alone from the scriptures, while I can produce scripture that clearly refutes justification by our faith alone.

I've already shown it to you a few days ago, but you will not see it, you can't.

There are only 3 ways possible for a man to see himself saved.

1)By faith alone
2)By Works alone
3) Or by both

What does the master Church builder (Paul) say about this? It can't get any clearer than this!

Rom. 11:5-6
"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

We are saved by the Grace of God, justified by faith alone.

 

[Charlie24]

I've already shown it to you a few days ago, but you will not see it, you can't.

There are only 3 ways possible for a man to see himself saved.

1)By faith alone
2)By Works alone
3) Or by both

What does the master Church builder (Paul) say about this? It can't get any clearer than this!

Rom. 11:5-6
"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

We are saved by the Grace of God, justified by faith alone.

Now Paul backs up what he said in Rom. 11.

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Folks, there is no such thing as "unconditional salvation."

Hebrews 7:25. 'Therefore He is able to save to the uttermost [N.I.V. 'completely'] those who come to God through Him, because He ever lives to intercede for them.'

There are only 3 ways possible for a man to see himself saved.

1)By faith alone
2)By Works alone
3) Or by both

How about by Christ alone?

 

[kyredneck]

I've already shown it to you a few days ago

There's that overactive imagination of yours, again. Nothing you've posted even hints at justification by our faith ALONE from scripture.

 

[Charlie24]

There's that overactive imagination of yours, again. Nothing you've posted even hints at justification by our faith ALONE from scripture.

I told you you can't see it. No surprise to anyone here.

Paul plainly said that grace is not by works. That rules out 2 of the 3 ways.

By works alone
By both faith and works

That leaves only faith alone. Of course, the Calvinist doesn't know how to read between the lines.

They don't know how to follow the theme of Scripture to find the truth.

If the Scripture doesn't say exactly word for word, the Calvinists will not be able to see it.

 

[kyredneck]

I told you you can't see it. No surprise to anyone here.

I told you you'd be unable to produce scripture that states justification is by our faith alone, and you haven't. No surprise here.

 

[Charlie24]

I told you you'd be unable to produce scripture that states justification is by our faith alone, and you haven't. No surprise here.

And I told you when I do, you won't be able to see it.

 

[kyredneck]

And I told you when I do, you won't be able to see it.

I don't see it because it doesn't exist, except in that overactive imagination of yours.

 

[Charlie24]

I don't see it because it doesn't exist, except in that overactive imagination of yours.

OK, ky. That's fine.