Unconfessed Sin

[David Lamb]

I feel the same way about so called Christians in adultery, killing, stealing, lying, laying and partaking of all of the devils actions and still proclaiming to be Christlike.

But surely you don't imagine that believing that Jesus Christ died for all my sins, past, present and future, necessarily means encouraging, condoning or being happy with myself or any other Christian committing adultery, killing, stealing, lying, and so on? Was David happy about killing Uriah the Hittite, and comitting adultery with Bathsheba? Not if the words of Psalm 51 mean anything. Was Peter happy about denying his Lord? No - he went out and wept bitterly. Was Paul happy when he did things he should not do, or left undone those things he should do? No - he said, "O wretched man that I am". I am glad such men are in the bible. They don't give me excuses for my sin, but they encourage me to know that there is forgiveness when I do sin.

 

[Hope of Glory]

but they encourage me to know that there is forgiveness when I do sin.

Key phrase, right here!

 

[Brother Bob]

But surely you don't imagine that believing that Jesus Christ died for all my sins, past, present and future, necessarily means encouraging, condoning or being happy with myself or any other Christian committing adultery, killing, stealing, lying, and so on? Was David happy about killing Uriah the Hittite, and comitting adultery with Bathsheba? Not if the words of Psalm 51 mean anything. Was Peter happy about denying his Lord? No - he went out and wept bitterly. Was Paul happy when he did things he should not do, or left undone those things he should do? No - he said, "O wretched man that I am". I am glad such men are in the bible. They don't give me excuses for my sin, but they encourage me to know that there is forgiveness when I do sin.

No Sir, I do not believe Christians commit such acts as are listed. I do believe we sin and have an advocate with God. Jesus told us and for a reason, "there is a sin not unto death", I do not believe this sin not unto death that we overtake a brother in, is one of those sins listed above.
I believe we are saved by Grace THROUGH faith and that Grace then stays with us and is able in the end to present us blameless, body, soul and spirit. If we sin a sin not unto death, that Jesus spoke of, we have an advocate with God.
Now if people want to fault my doctrine because it is too straight for them, it won't be the first time.

Isa 4:1¶And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

fault me if you must, for teaching that Christians must be Christlike, God Bless,

BBob

 

[skypair]

So, hit the town all you Christians and sin all you want. The world can't sin or they will go to hell, but you can sin all you want for whatever you do, you still are covered. I don't care if you do put God to an open shame, "go for it"!!!
If what you say is "it", then I been believing and preaching the wrong thing for 35 years. Foolish me, I thought Christians were "Christlike".

I always did believe that if I left my wife and daughter around a group of brothers that I did not have to worry about some of them "hitting" on them. Guess that was just completely foolish of me.

You're being sarcastic, of course -- blowing what we are saying out of all proportion to our claims.

God has put a new "mind" in us and instilled a new "fear" of His wrath. Dr. Rogers used to say, "I can sin all I want. The thing is that now I don't want to sin." If you look at it from God's perspective (and believers do), sin is self-destructive. Why would you want to live a self-destructive lifestyle when God has promised "life and that more abundantly!?"

But don't let pride stand in the way of correcting yourself. "If we judge ourselves, we will not be judged" is part of the communion warning not to take unworthily the elements, 2Cor 11:31, Bob.

skypair

 

[skypair]

It is what I live and die by. Notice the scripture below say to preserve, not fix it at the end. It is not a straw man, but something every Christian better take to heart. Most on here believe as you do, so I would think you fellows sure have to keep close watch on your wives and children when around the "saved", if it true they can do all these things and will do these things. I am not a ME'er, there is a lot of difference in believeing you never been saved and your good works will cleanse your sins. The reason Jesus is an advocate for our sins, though you believe they were all paid for at the cross, along with the rest, is to plead our sins as Christians to the Father so we be not condemned with the world. We are kept by the power of God, and led by His Spirit, which does not led us to adultery, stealing, killing. We are Christlike and Christians do not do those things, I don't care who believes they do, for scripture says whosoever that does do them will not be saved.

Bob -- we're not debating whether believers sin or not. We're debating what the consequences are. NOT hell but chastisement, perhaps loss and death from this life to the hext.

And most on here, then, would appear to have "unity in the knowledge and faith of Christ" that you do not have. That would probably be the case "at large" in the believing communion. So how are you right?

skypair

 

[saturneptune]

At Bible study a few weeks ago, the question came up as to why David and Peter were children of God, and Saul and Judas were not. By our standards, David committed some of the most henious sins known to man. I think the difference is repentance. Someone mentioned Psalm 51. There was also Peter's repentance before a Risen Christ.

Repentance in itself is a gift of God in my opinion. Saul was interested in his power, and Judas his money. What is the difference? A changed heart for Peter and David, and not for the other two. Why? only God knows.

 

[skypair]

I want to know what the assurance. Where do you draw the LINE? We will always struggle with sin, we will always have bad thoughts. Where is the assurance?

HoG is right, Jeep.

There is only one way to have assurance that God has saved you and that is for you to receive His offer of salvation, no strings (works) attached! You have "naturally" tasted of sin through the world (we all have) -- you have supernaturally tasted of God through His gospel (Heb 6:4-5). Chose God and leave (repent) of the other. The direction, the focus, the "guiding principle" of your life will immediately and eternally change. You won't be able to hear what God says without wanting to obey. So thereafter, the key is listening to God.

You know, in the earth there are 2 kingdoms -- the "kingdom of heaven" which is of the Son and the kingdom of hell (not directly mentioned in scripture but here nonetheless) which is of Satan (See Eph 6). And life in each is as you might imagine -- heavenly or hellish. If you choose to follow Christ, He will "keep" you eternally His and His Spirit will guide you into all truth and into "abundant life."

But don't turn back in this life to the kingdom of hell. That is what we are debating here and it comes down to, despite being saved, you can make a "living hell" out of this life anyway.

skypair

 

[skypair]

No Sir, I do not believe Christians commit such acts as are listed.

You keep saying that but do you not think that believing men lust? Maybe you are too old to remember those days, eh? :laugh: Jesus said that is the same as adultery, Bob. So yeah, guard your daughters!

The point being that believers would have to be emptied of every hormone and instinct natural to them to not commit thought sin that you say would send him to hell! But this is apparently NOT the case as they are the "wood, hay, and stubble" that CANNOT enter into the KoG (IMO) -- that must NOT and will no get past the JSOC.

skypair

 

[David Lamb]

fault me if you must, for teaching that Christians must be Christlike, God Bless,

BBob

Sorry, Bob, I obviously didn't explain myself clearly. I, too, believe that Christians must be Christlike. That was what I meant when I wrote, "They (bible men such as David, Peter, and Paul) don't give me excuses for my sin."

I do not believe in antinomianism - the idea that says, in effect, "I'm OK. Jesus Christ has saved me, so I can sin as much as I like. I'll still go to heaven." Such a thought ought to cause the person who has it seriously to doubt if he has truly been saved by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

On the other hand, neither do I believe that sanctification (as opposed to justification) is an immediate thing. I came across the following words in an article with the title: "Justification and Sanctification: What is the Difference?" at the web site: http://www.carm.org/questions/justification.htm

Justification is the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is reckoned to the sinner so the sinner is declared by God as being righteous under the Law (Rom. 4:3; 5:1,9; Gal. 2:16; 3:11). This righteousness is not earned or retained by any effort of the saved. Justification is an instantaneous occurrence with the result being eternal life. It is based completely and solely upon Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and is received by faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). No works are necessary whatsoever to obtain justification. Otherwise, it is not a gift (Rom. 6:23). Therefore, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1).
Sanctification, on the other hand, involves the work of the person. But it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is not instantaneous because it is not the work of God alone. The justified person is actively involved in submitting to God's will, resisting sin, seeking holiness, and working to be more godly (Gal. 5:22-23). Significantly, sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a perfect life, we are still justified.​

But in case anyone should imagine that the author of those words is antinomian, he continues:

Does this mean that those justified by grace can sin as much as they want? ​

Romans 6:1-2 says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer in it?"
1 Thess. 4:7 says, "God has called us not for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification."
The Scriptures teach us that we are to live holy lives and avoid sin (Col. 1:5-11). Just because we are saved and eternally justified before God (John 10:28), that is no excuse to continue in the sin from which we were saved. Of course, we all sin (1 John 1:8). But the war between the saved and his sin is continuous (Rom. 7:14-20) and it won't be until the return of Jesus that we will be delivered from this body of death (Rom. 7:24). To continually seek sin and use God's grace to excuse it later is to trample the blood of Christ underfoot (Heb. 10:29) and to reveal the person's true sinful, unsaved nature (1 John 2:4; 2:19). (Other verses worth checking out are: Heb. 12:14; 1 Pet. 1:14-16; and 1 Pet. 2:21-22.) ​

So I certainly do not fault you for saying that a Christian must be Christlike. I hope that makes my meaning at least a little clearer.

 

[Brother Bob]

Skypair;
God has put a new "mind" in us and instilled a new "fear" of His wrath. Dr. Rogers used to say, "I can sin all I want. The thing is that now I don't want to sin." If you look at it from God's perspective (and believers do), sin is self-destructive. Why would you want to live a self-destructive lifestyle when God has promised "life and that more abundantly!?"

I accept this to be truth, but this is not what you been saying. This is what I been saying, if you will have it.

 

[Brother Bob]

Justification is the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is reckoned to the sinner so the sinner is declared by God as being righteous under the Law (Rom. 4:3; 5:1,9; Gal. 2:16; 3:11). This righteousness is not earned or retained by any effort of the saved. Justification is an instantaneous occurrence with the result being eternal life. It is based completely and solely upon Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and is received by faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). No works are necessary whatsoever to obtain justification. Otherwise, it is not a gift (Rom. 6:23). Therefore, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1).
Sanctification, on the other hand, involves the work of the person. But it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is not instantaneous because it is not the work of God alone. The justified person is actively involved in submitting to God's will, resisting sin, seeking holiness, and working to be more godly (Gal. 5:22-23). Significantly, sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a perfect life, we are still justified.
​

But in case anyone should imagine that the author of those words is antinomian, he continues:

Does this mean that those justified by grace can sin as much as they want? ​

Romans 6:1-2 says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer in it?"
1 Thess. 4:7 says, "God has called us not for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification."
The Scriptures teach us that we are to live holy lives and avoid sin (Col. 1:5-11). Just because we are saved and eternally justified before God (John 10:28), that is no excuse to continue in the sin from which we were saved. Of course, we all sin (1 John 1:8). But the war between the saved and his sin is continuous (Rom. 7:14-20) and it won't be until the return of Jesus that we will be delivered from this body of death (Rom. 7:24). To continually seek sin and use God's grace to excuse it later is to trample the blood of Christ underfoot (Heb. 10:29) and to reveal the person's true sinful, unsaved nature (1 John 2:4; 2:19). (Other verses worth checking out are: Heb. 12:14; 1 Pet. 1:14-16; and 1 Pet. 2:21-22.)
​

So I certainly do not fault you for saying that a Christian must be Christlike. I hope that makes my meaning at least a little clearer.

I believe and accept everything in your post.
We might have some difference to the types of sins that the saved do fall into.

I thank you for your replys, they are courteous and pleasent to read. May God Bless,

BBob

 

[skypair]

I accept this to be truth, but this is not what you been saying. This is what I been saying, if you will have it.

Well, you been saying it with the extra stipulation that "hell is to be paid" if a believer sins -- as if the cross meant nothing.

So let me posit this for you -- Christ paid for ALL men's sins for ALL time at the cross. Not even unsaved are going to hell on account of sin, Bob. They are going to hell on account of rejecting Christ.

skypair

 

[David Lamb]

I believe and accept everything in your post.
We might have some difference to the types of sins that the saved do fall into.

I thank you for your replys, they are courteous and pleasent to read. May God Bless,

BBob

Thank you for your kind words Brother Bob. I don't think they are deserved - I often look at the messages I have posted and think, "Why did I put it like that? Someone could take that the wrong way, and think I'm very rude."

 

[Brother Bob]

Well, you been saying it with the extra stipulation that "hell is to be paid" if a believer sins -- as if the cross meant nothing.

So let me posit this for you -- Christ paid for ALL men's sins for ALL time at the cross. Not even unsaved are going to hell on account of sin, Bob. They are going to hell on account of rejecting Christ.

skypair

No, you have it wrong Sir. I been saying believers do not commit such sins as adultery and if it happens they were never saved.

And if no one is going to hell over their sins, I guess Jesus died in vain, for He said, My words shall judge you in the last day. I chuckle when someone tries to separate sins, hell, the lake of fire and say its unbelief, that will send you to hell when it takes belief in Jesus to have your sins removed so you do not go to hell. Its like trying to separate His death from His resurrection as I hear some do as if they discovered some great miracle. Well its takes both for us to have eternal life, and you cannot separate them, no matter how hard you try.

 

[David Lamb]

Not even unsaved are going to hell on account of sin, Bob. They are going to hell on account of rejecting Christ.

skypair

So in your view, unbelief (rejecting Christ) is not a sin, it seems.

 

[skypair]

No, you have it wrong Sir. I been saying believers do not commit such sins as adultery and if it happens they were never saved.

OK, what's you list of sins for which, if someone commits them, they are not saved? Does that (adultery, for instance) include David?

And if no one is going to hell over their sins, I guess Jesus died in vain,...

No need to get testy, Bob. Does 1John 2:2 not say "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world?"

Do not "His words" say "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:..." Mk 3:28-29 Or maybe I am misunderstanding it.

Well its takes both for us to have eternal life, and you cannot separate them, no matter how hard you try.

Huh? I think you meant to say it takes both His death and His resurrection to have eternal life. What does that have to do with whether all sin of all men is forgiven or not?

Or are you saying it takes faith in both? Well, sure it does -- 1Cor 15:1-4! But what does that have to do with the fact that Christ's death and resurrection took sin from all men? It is still belief that determines whether you are saved of not.

skypair

 

[skypair]

So in your view, unbelief (rejecting Christ) is not a sin, it seems.

It is the only "unpardonable" sin, David -- Mk 3:28-29, Mt 12:31.

And if you (and Bob) look into that a little closer, you will see that this "blasphemy" is rejection of the Spirit -- just like Solomon said in Prov 8:35-36, "For whoso findeth me [wisdom, i.e. Holy Spirit] findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. 36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death."

skypair

 

[David Lamb]

It is the only "unpardonable" sin, David -- Mk 3:28-29, Mt 12:31.

And if you (and Bob) look into that a little closer, you will see that this "blasphemy" is rejection of the Spirit -- just like Solomon said in Prov 8:35-36, "For whoso findeth me [wisdom, i.e. Holy Spirit] findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD. 36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death."

skypair

If unbelief were unpardonable, how would anyone be saved? We weren't born as believers in the Lord Jesus Christ. So before we were converted, we were all unbelievers. If a person persists in unbelief, and dies in unbelief, then of course they cannot be pardoned after death for their unbelief.

But was it simply "unbelief" in Mark 3? Verses 28-30 seem to indicate otherwise:

28 "Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter;
29 "but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation" ––
30 because they said, "He has an unclean spirit."​

Not only did those scribes not believe in Jesus, they ascribed Satan His work of casting out demons. Plenty of my friends and neighbours don't believe in Jesus Christ, and I fervently pray that God will graciously save them as He has me, but none of them ascribe His works to Satan.

 

[EdSutton]

So let me posit this for you -- Christ paid for ALL men's sins for ALL time at the cross. Not even unsaved are going to hell on account of sin, Bob. They are going to hell on account of rejecting Christ.

I agree with everything skypair has said, here, that I've quoted. We, too often, cloud the issue with our words, even if done unintentionally.

Maybe I could (hopefully) expand on this and clarify this even more. So I shall attempt to do so.
skypair writes: "Not even (the) unsaved are going to hell on account of sin". This is absolutely correct. We too often cloud this issue with our terminology, by saying words to the effect that someone "goes to hell to pay for (our) sin(s)." This is simply not so. Neither 'sin', as in the sin nature, nor sins 'committed' are 'charged' to us, at all, but all these were placed on the Lord Jesus Christ, on the cross, who 'paid' the penalty in full, once for all time.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
We have turned, every one, to his own way;
And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. (Isa. 53:6 - NKJV)

2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (I John 2:2 - NKJV)

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”[m] 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[n] 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. (Heb. 10:4, 11-18 - NKJV)

18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (II Cor. 5:18-21 - NKJV)

The Lord Jesus Christ was the 'sin-offering', once for all time. All the sins of the world were laid upon HIm. There is not one Scripture that I know of that ever says that "man 'pays' for his or her sins", anywhere in Scripture, as to the penalty for sin. Man suffers the consequences
of sin, all throughout Scripture, but that is not the same as "paying the 'judicial' penalty for sin(s)." If the blood, required by God to 'cover' sins were not accomplishable by that of 'innocent' "bulls and goats", why should one think that it is ever accomplished, in any way, by a 'guilty' man? In fact, I just cited a verse that says our 'trespasses were not imputed to us', in the first place. Why? Because they were already imputed to the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then why does one 'go to hell', stand 'condemned', or is 'lost', depending on how one wishes to say this? It is a valid question. Why is everyone not saved, then, since the Lord 'paid the price', in full? Because of not believing that God has sent the Son, in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, who paid the penalty through His own sacrifice on the cross.

We often say that a person is 'lost' because of unbelief, as well. Not exactly accurate, for "believe" is a word, in English, that may merely mean a lack of knowledge in which to believe. I prefer to use the word "disbelieve", or as the KJV renders it "believe not" which is an "active" rejection, as opposed to a "passive" state.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [John 3:18 - NKJV (ital. - believeth not - KJV)]
36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” [John 3:36 - NKJV (ital. - believeth not - KJV)]

Something I found, and I don't even know who is the person saying this, says it better than I can, so I will quote it from them. [Please do not take this as an 'endorsement', for as I said, I know nothing further, and do not normally endorse anyone, except for what I may quote. (I did reduce the font size in the quote.)]

The only requirement of the Gospel is to believe it, (Jn 3:16; Eph 2:8-9). So to disobey the gospel can only mean to disbelieve in it. Compare 1 Pet 1:18-22, 2:6-8. 1 Pet 4:17 teaches that to obey the gospel is to believe it, to disobey the gospel is to disbelieve it. Compare Eph 2:1-3 = unbelievers are disobedient & follow Satan. 1) [Compare Jn 3:36]:
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
"whoever rejects" = the Greek word "apeithon" = "disbelieving one", (nominative particple) = one refusing to believe in the Son:
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects
[= "apeithon" = whoever refuses to believe, i.e., rejects the Son as his Savior] will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
2) [Compare Jn 3:18]:
"Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
Notice that here in John 3:18 that the only condition presented for being condemned is to not believe in the name of God's one and only Son. (BIBLE STUDY MANUALS)

I fully agree with this.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
No, you have it wrong Sir. I been saying believers do not commit such sins as adultery and if it happens they were never saved.
OK, what's you list of sins for which, if someone commits them, they are not saved? Does that (adultery, for instance) include David?

I think its foolish to compare David with those who have the blood already applied to their souls, of which David did not. Also, who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, of which David did not, Also, who have the mind of Christ, which David did not.
If I believed all was the same, then I would not be concerned about what Christians did, no matter what. Many concubines, stone their wives and sons to death, etc.

Rom 10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel

I think you do error in not telling people to believe in Christ includes repentance, confession that He is the Christ. I do not like the doctrine of "say you believe" and you are saved. If that is all you teach people you do them a wrong. It says to preach the Gospel, he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. "believe what"? The Gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation. Jesus said to preach "repentance", you and Ed and saying "just believe" without explain that to believe from the heart includes repentance, confession.
You are using what I see on TV all the time, "just come up here and say the sinners prayer and you will be saved" hogwash.

If you want to tell people what it takes to be saved, tell them what Jesus said to tell them. Why are you trying to go around Jesus?

1Pe 4:1¶Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

It worries me that some are causing people to settle down on something short of salvation.

"To Believe"
Includes a lot more than the impression you are giving.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins

This scripture alone tells you that sins will condemn you to hell.

If a preacher got up in our church and preached that sins will not send you to hell, I would take him by the coat tail and set him down, maybe a little hard set down too.

Huh? I think you meant to say it takes both His death and His resurrection to have eternal life. What does that have to do with whether all sin of all men is forgiven or not?

Are you saying that all men's sins are forgiven?