Under Grace or Under Law?...Round 3

[Claudia_T]

Is not the perfect law of liberty found only as we are in compliance, first by having all sins of the past atoned for by faith, and are presently living in a state of obedience?

2Pt:2:19: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

I think so

 

[D28guy]

Claudia,

"actually yeah I am "

Wow. Far out. :thumbs:

Mike

 

[Claudia_T]

Claudia,



Wow. Far out. :thumbs:

Mike

Far Out, Right On, and Outta Sight!

 

[EdSutton]

Paul words it just like this:

Rom:6:2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Claudia

Have any of us "grace types" argued any differently than this? However I've seen several others that seem to see "under grace" as giving us and meaning one will 'take a license', not only "to sin", but that we will somehow "sin more". I don't buy that.

Let me give a couple of examples, one actual and one hypothetical.

For many years, several of the western states, of the US, had no posted numerical speed limit, the defining words being "reasonable and proper". During the Arab oil embargo of the 1970s, Congress enacted legislation setting a national speed limit of 55. It is my understanding that in some of these western states, average speed actually incresed with this posted speed limit. When this law expired Montana resumed the "reasonable and proper" definition and the average speed dropped a few MPH. When another piece of legislation was passed requiring states to have a posted speed limit, or face some loss of funding, Montana again posted a speed limit, in places up to 80. Again, the average speeds increased with a posted limit. Wonder why?

I am not trying to cross thread post here, but Mike, as I am a professional driver, get with the flow of the traffic. Speed differential causes far more accidents than 'speed' alone, as a rule.

Now to my hypothetical example. Let's say that I have a business on 'Main Street', Hometown, USA. I happen to have a plate glass window that showcases my wares, nicely. Now there have been no windows broken in twenty years on Main Street, and I would hate to see my nice window broken. And I would like to do something to prevent this from ever happening. So I put up a sign that reads, "Please do not throw rocks through this window!'' Anyone who does so, wil be prosecuted fully!" Now the law is in place. That will solve the problem, right? Anyone like to hazard a guess as to which window will be the first one broken on the street?

Ed

 

[Claudia_T]

Have any of us "grace types" argued any differently than this? However I've seen several others that seem to see "under grace" as giving us and meaning one will 'take a license', not only "to sin", but that we will somehow "sin more". I don't buy that.

Let me give a couple of examples, one actual and one hypothetical.

For many years, several of the western states, of the US, had no posted numerical speed limit, the defining words being "reasonable and proper". During the Arab oil embargo of the 1970s, Congress enacted legislation setting a national speed limit of 55. It is my understanding that in some of these western states, average speed actually incresed with this posted speed limit. When this law expired Montana resumed the "reasonable and proper" definition and the average speed dropped a few MPH. When another piece of legislation was passed requiring states to have a posted speed limit, or face some loss of funding, Montana again posted a speed limit, in places up to 80. Again, the average speeds increased with a posted limit. Wonder why?

I am not trying to cross thread post here, but Mike, as I am a professional driver, get with the flow of the traffic. Speed differential causes far more accidents than 'speed' alone, as a rule.

Now to my hypothetical example. Let's say that I have a business on 'Main Street', Hometown, USA. I happen to have a plate glass window that showcases my wares, nicely. Now there have been no windows broken in twenty years on Main Street, and I would hate to see my nice window broken. And I would like to do something to prevent this from ever happening. So I put up a sign that reads, "Please do not throw rocks through this window!'' Anyone who does so, wil be prosecuted fully!" Now the law is in place. That will solve the problem, right? Anyone like to hazard a guess as to which window will be the first one broken on the street?

Ed

Ed,

While I do understand what you are saying... its really like saying that God didnt know what He was doing in the first place by making the Law.

Secondly, the Bible says He would write the Law in our Hearts in the New Covenant. So I dont see any "getting rid of the Law" there, do you?

 

[EdSutton]

I...am willing to change my mind on things if someone shows me Im (sic) wrong, out of the Bible.

Claudia

That is exactly what it means "to repent" - (metanoeO) no more; no less - "change your mind". The only question is "what are you changing your mind about", or about what is one repenting? Why is this seemingly so hard for some to grasp, unless it is being filtered through 'religious tradition'?

Ed

 

[Claudia_T]

Eed,

because its not like in old testament times they just kept the law because they had to and we do it cause we really want to...

they were supposed to really want to.... too

 

[Claudia_T]

well when you see Jesus up there dying for your sins because you yourself broke the law, you're supposed to be sorry for what caused Him to be put there in the first place, namely --breaking the Law.

Not to mention you also should be sorry for having been in overall rebellion against God's government.

 

[EdSutton]

We must also remember that Jesus told Peter:


What did He mean about 'when thou are converted'? Were the disciples saved before the cross? or after it?
We do know that Judas was one of the Apostles, yet the son of Perdition. Were the others also in an unsaved state before the shedding of blood?

The words "be converted" are the passive voice of the Gk. "epistrephO" to be turned about. It was nothing Peter could do, but was done to Peter, by the Lord.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

okay, I can see the point maybe about Peter not being converted, and Im not sure if that means he wasnt "saved" but I dont think the fact that Jesus hadnt gone to the cross yet has a thing to do with any of that.

The sacrificing of the sheep was to show faith in the dying on the cross that was to come so to reason that perhaps if Peter wasnt converted this means nobody else was either... that is just wrong, in my opinion.

Plus "converted" in this passage could mean that he just didnt realize who Jesus really was.

Not completely.


sorry I gotta change that, I just read through and Jesus said that to Peter right when He said he was going to betray him...

Claudia

:BangHead: :BangHead:

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Acts:3:19: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord

well that does seem to say if you arent "converted" you arent "saved"

One cannot be 'turned' (note again the passive voice, it is something done to someone) until after one repents - changes their mind about God and Christ.

:shakes head sadly:

Ed

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Ed,

Do you have cameras on the windows?

If someone broke that window, I daresay you would want to procecute, as your warning stated.

God has warned in His Word. He that does acts of unrighteous is unrighteous and will be punished as being unrighteous.

Ez. 18; Eph. 5; 1 Cor. 6; Gal. 5.; and many others warn against the committing of sin.

Am I sinless? NO! But when sin is brought to the light, if I do nothing but sweep it back in the dark corners I am still guilty of that sin and will be punished.

As the light reveals sin, one must confess that the sin is there and turn from that sin, not embrace the sin.

 

[D28guy]

Ed and Claudia,

Ed...

"Now to my hypothetical example. Let's say that I have a business on 'Main Street', Hometown, USA. I happen to have a plate glass window that showcases my wares, nicely. Now there have been no windows broken in twenty years on Main Street, and I would hate to see my nice window broken. And I would like to do something to prevent this from ever happening. So I put up a sign that reads, "Please do not throw rocks through this window!'' Anyone who does so, wil be prosecuted fully!" Now the law is in place. That will solve the problem, right? Anyone like to hazard a guess as to which window will be the first one broken on the street?"

Dig a big hole in your yard. People will walk up and down the sidewalk past it all day long.

Then put a sign up that says "Do not look in this hole".

Claudia,

"its really like saying that God didnt know what He was doing in the first place by making the Law."

He knew exactly what He was doing...

"3:19[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. [/FONT]

Mike

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Why does the child of God no longer need a schoolmaster? because the laws are written in the hearts of the children of God. They know what the Lord doth require of them.

 

[EdSutton]

Ed and Claudia,

Ed...



Dig a big hole in your yard. People will walk up and down the sidewalk past it all day long.

Then put a sign up that says "Do not look in this hole".

Claudia,



He knew exactly what He was doing...

"3:19[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. [/FONT]

Mike

Good post, but I'm getting ahead of myself.

Ed

 

[Diggin in da Word]

The Psalmist wrote:

Thy Word have I hid in mine heart; that I might not sin against Thee.

It is not that we can continue sinning. God's Word is to be studied and applied to our life if indeed our life is hid in Christ.

 

[DHK]

HP: Now I am not just picking on Ed here, but it does deem a bit strange to men that men who try and enact perfect obedience to civil law, such as been suggested by DHK, would then throw out the law in comments such as this. If I am not under God’s law, and God’s law tells me to be obedient to civil law, cannot I rightfully assume I am free to do anything anytime I well please, without regard to God or man?

I would like to see DHK answer this one.

Can I suppose, as Ed states, that since 'I am not under law but grace' that I can break the law, both civil and moral with impunity? Why not? What is there to stop me?

We do not believe in antinomianism or anarchy.
Paul said: "What, shall we sin that grace may abound?
God forbid!
We are to keep the law, civil and otherwise, and yet we are not under the law but under grace. A few examples should suffice.

If I drive without insurance I break the law.
If I break the speed limit, I break the law.
If I spit on the sidewalk in Singapore, I break the law.
If I don't get my sidewalk shoveled within 48 hours after it snows, I break the law.
If I don't pay my taxes, I break the law.

And one could go on and on. The lawyers office if full of laws that one culd break.
Does that mean we are under law? No, of course not. It simply means that if I break the law, whether civil or moral (spiritual), I will pay the consequences. In civil law the consequences of the examples I gave are usually monetary--fines. Other crimes might result in jail time, and still others (depending on where you live, may even result in the death penalty). You pay the consequence for breaking the law. But do you lose your salvation? No, in no way. Salvation is never lost by breakiing the law. Our sin is all under the blood.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."
Our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. We are under grace. There is nothing that condemn us to hell. The sin or law broken cannot condemn one to hell, even if the sin remains unconfessed. It is still under the blood. If I don't confess my guilt under civil law, I may get myself into bigger trouble. My penalty may be greater. But unless it is a capital offence I won't lose my life.
Breaking the law means I lose my fellowship with God, until the sin is confessed and fellowship is restored. But in no way will God cast me out of his family for any sin I might commit. I live under grace. I am his child. I am born into His family. My sins are under the blood to be remembered no more--as far as salvation is concerned but it does affect my walk with Him.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

If I drive without insurance I break the law.
If I break the speed limit, I break the law.
If I spit on the sidewalk in Singapore, I break the law.
If I don't get my sidewalk shoveled within 48 hours after it snows, I break the law.
If I don't pay my taxes, I break the law.

If ya allow yer cat to run around at night in Sterling, Colorado without being fitted with a taillight, ya break the law.

Sorry could not resist.
(that is a real law, btw)

 

[Diggin in da Word]

And if you walk around Carmel California with an ice cream cone in your pocket, yer guilty of breaking the law.

(Hey, I didn't write this stuff)

 

[D28guy]

Diggin,

"They know what the Lord doth require of them."

And I know what the Lord *doth* require of me...

"Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fullfill the lust of the flesh"

And...

"Walk in the newness of the Spirit, and not the oldness of the letter", because "The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life"

I leaveth now to goeth to work. :wavey:

God bless,

Mike