Under Grace or Under Law?...Round 3

[D28guy]

...and you do break the law in Kentucky if you drive with a burned out headlamp.

Trust me, I know. :smilewinkgrin:

Bye!

Mike

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Diggin,



And I know what the Lord *doth* require of me...

"Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fullfill the lust of the flesh"

And...

"Walk in the newness of the Spirit, and not the oldness of the letter", because "The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life"

I leaveth now to goeth to work. :wavey:

God bless,

Mike

So, those who were committing abominable acts just before death were not walking in the Spirit. They were the servant to sin. They broke the commandments and did not truly know Christ.

 

[EdSutton]

so what is your problem?

The problem is adding to Scripture and reading old English definitions and definitions derived from some messed up Roman Catholic and other medieval theology, as well as Calvinistic and Arminian teachings, back into the Biblical languages.

You amen it!!!

No, what I did "amen" is that they were saved by grace through faith, and that it was not conditioned on some supposed standard that was or was not met, upon believing, or some condition that had to be met before one could believe, or even worse, one that had to continue to be met to keep that 'faith' effective, as some here keep positing.

You were under it before Christ set you free when you believed and put them in your heart and mind that the righteous of the Law would be fulfilled in you and the only way the righteous of the Law can be fulfilled is to Keep them.

I, for the tenth time, at least, was not under "it" before Christ, for I was a Gentile, not a Jew.

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, (Rom. 2:14 - NKJV)

The Mosaic Law was given to the Jews, never to the Gentiles, assuming that Rom. 2:14 is found in your Bible. Pilate recognized this, when he spoke to the Jews of "your law", Gallio did the same, and Jesus and Paul made the same observation and recognition, referring to "your (Israel's) law". (Jn. 8:17; 10:34; 18:31; Acts 18:15; Rom. 2:17, 27; 4:14) And Scripture simply does not say that "the only way the righteousness of the Law can be fulfilled is to Keep them", either.

In fact, what it does say is that the 'righteousness' of the Law is fulfilled by walking according to the Spirit. In fact I'll give that quote, as well-

4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Rom. 8:4 - NKJV)

And in fact one can only find the phrase "keep the law" or similar, six times in the NT. And here they are, just 'cause I'm so helpful.

1. John 7:19
Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

1. Acts 15:5
   But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
   
   
2. Acts 15:24
   Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
3. Acts 21:24
   Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
   
   
4. Romans 2:25
   For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
   
   
5. Galatians 6:13
   For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. (all six are KJV)

1. Uh- do you see anything here about this being a command? In fact, the church council at Jerusalem expressly declared that "we gave no such command", as to keep the law.

This is what Scripture says on this subject, at least in the NT. Peter asked why did the Judaizers attempt to tempt God and put a yoke on the church that Israel was not able to bear for 1600 years. (Acts 15:10) I ask that same same question 1950 years later. "Why indeed?" I fail to see a problem with "getting it'.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

2Pt:2:19: While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

I think so

Read the whole chapter. I believe the subjects is "false prophets", not Christian liberty.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Ed,

Do you have cameras on the windows?

If someone broke that window, I daresay you would want to procecute, as your warning stated.

God has warned in His Word. He that does acts of unrighteous is unrighteous and will be punished as being unrighteous.

Ez. 18; Eph. 5; 1 Cor. 6; Gal. 5.; and many others warn against the committing of sin.

Am I sinless? NO! But when sin is brought to the light, if I do nothing but sweep it back in the dark corners I am still guilty of that sin and will be punished.

As the light reveals sin, one must confess that the sin is there and turn from that sin, not embrace the sin.

:BangHead: :BangHead:

Don't know why I am getting a headache! Anyone got any suggestions?

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Ed and Claudia,

Ed...



Dig a big hole in your yard. People will walk up and down the sidewalk past it all day long.

Then put a sign up that says "Do not look in this hole".

Claudia,



He knew exactly what He was doing...

"3:19[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. [/FONT]

Mike

Good post, Mike.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

We do not believe in antinomianism or anarchy.
Paul said: "What, shall we sin that grace may abound?
God forbid!
We are to keep the law, civil and otherwise, and yet we are not under the law but under grace. A few examples should suffice.

If I drive without insurance I break the law.
If I break the speed limit, I break the law.
If I spit on the sidewalk in Singapore, I break the law.
If I don't get my sidewalk shoveled within 48 hours after it snows, I break the law.
If I don't pay my taxes, I break the law.

And one could go on and on. The lawyers office if full of laws that one culd break.
Does that mean we are under law? No, of course not. It simply means that if I break the law, whether civil or moral (spiritual), I will pay the consequences. In civil law the consequences of the examples I gave are usually monetary--fines. Other crimes might result in jail time, and still others (depending on where you live, may even result in the death penalty). You pay the consequence for breaking the law. But do you lose your salvation? No, in no way. Salvation is never lost by breakiing the law. Our sin is all under the blood.
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus."
Our sins are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. We are under grace. There is nothing that condemn us to hell. The sin or law broken cannot condemn one to hell, even if the sin remains unconfessed. It is still under the blood. If I don't confess my guilt under civil law, I may get myself into bigger trouble. My penalty may be greater. But unless it is a capital offence I won't lose my life.
Breaking the law means I lose my fellowship with God, until the sin is confessed and fellowship is restored. But in no way will God cast me out of his family for any sin I might commit. I live under grace. I am his child. I am born into His family. My sins are under the blood to be remembered no more--as far as salvation is concerned but it does affect my walk with Him.

My headache is easing. Wonder why? Good post, DHK. You are absolutely correct, here.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

So, those who were committing abominable acts just before death were not walking in the Spirit. They were the servant to sin. They broke the commandments and did not truly know Christ.

:BangHead: :BangHead:

I think my headache is coming back!

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob,

I know this is off topic but I had started a thread over there on Clothing and what we wear... I had the idea that Baptists were conservative on that, but nobody seems to care.

Are the people in the "Regular" Baptist Churches conservative when it comes to what people wear?
__________________

We are supposed to be Claudia but as in all churches we too have weaken our stance on the wearing apparrel even though we still have orders for women not to wear pants or both men and women are forbidden to wear shorts outside of their homes.

 

[Brother Bob]

you know what? that just didnt make any sense to me

It don't make no sense to anyone. When Jesus talked about the Law, it was the Ten Commandments unless He purposely mentioned something for the Jews to do that were still under the Mosaic Law.

Give me a scripture where He spoke of the Commandments and it was indeed the Mosaic law of the washing of the pots and pans. The famous 600 +.

I am not willing to put myself under the sacrificial Law, the Circumcism Law or all of the Mosaic Law. The Commandments came right from God Himself and was delivered by Moses and that is what He is saying that not one jot or tittle shall pass from the Law until Heaven and Earth pass. My goodness, When He died He fulfilled the sacrificial Law. He took the circumcismal Law out of the flesh and put it in the heart. Wonder why He had to do this if He fulfilled all the Law when He came. The Commandent Law was carried across the river Jordan on dry land in the ark into the promised land and when Jesus came preaching that is what He preach was "thou knowest the Commandments". yikes!!!

 

[EdSutton]

It don't make no sense to anyone. When Jesus talked about the Law, it was the Ten Commandments unless He purposely mentioned something for the Jews to do that were still under the Mosaic Law.

Give me a scripture where He spoke of the Commandments and it was indeed the Mosaic law of the washing of the pots and pans. The famous 600 +.

I am not willing to put myself under the sacrificial Law, the Circumcism Law or all of the Mosaic Law. The Commandments came right from God Himself and was delivered by Moses and that is what He is saying that not one jot or tittle shall pass from the Law until Heaven and Earth pass. My goodness, When He died He fulfilled the sacrificial Law.

He spoke of tithing of mint and cumin leaves; is that close enough to "the famous 600 +"? How about mercy and compassion? Your description and division is still completely arbitrary, and not delineated by Scripture. How about "Defraud not?"

In fact, In counted a least 90 times at a quick scanning of Exodus through Deuteronomy where it is said "And God spoke", or "The LORD spoke", or words to that effect, besides the Ten commandments. I submit they came "right from God Himself", as well. Either that or Moses or God lied, and I'm not willing to get near that one, unlike a lot of liberal theologians.

Ed

 

[Brother Bob]

Because God has INSTRUCTED us to. Our complete security as believers does not mean there will be no consequences for sin. There are. If who steal, you might go to jail. If you murder, you will go to jail. If you commit adultery, it might wreck your marriage and cause you to lose your wife. On and on.

God tells us in Hebrews that if you are a born again person sinning you will recieve His discipline and chastisement. You will NEVER lose His love or your eternal place in heaven. But discipline and chastisement is one of God gifts for us, and sometimes this is done through the body of believers we are a part of.

The man would lose his position as a bible teacher. The same if he is a Deacon. Counseling sessions. Accountability groups, etc etc.

None of that in the least bit contradicts what DHK, myself, and others have been sharing concerning our complete freedom from the Law, our being dead to the Law, and our being no longer under the Law with its condemnation abd curse.

Hope this helps,

Mike

You are the one who said it is not sin. How could it be sin if the Commandments are not in effect? Paul said, I would not even known what sin was except the Commandments said; "thou shalt not commit adultery".

 

[Claudia_T]

One cannot be 'turned' (note again the passive voice, it is something done to someone) until after one repents - changes their mind about God and Christ.

:shakes head sadly:

Ed

ED,

could you please explain what you mean? just eleborate on what you said and why you are shaking your head sadly?

 

[Claudia_T]

You are the one who said it is not sin. How could it be sin if the Commandments are not in effect? Paul said, I would not even known what sin was except the Commandments said; "thou shalt not commit adultery".

Bob,

thats interesting that Mike says they have Accountability groups, isnt it? :laugh:

 

[Brother Bob]

For many years, several of the western states, of the US, had no posted numerical speed limit, the defining words being "reasonable and proper". During the Arab oil embargo of the 1970s, Congress enacted legislation setting a national speed limit of 55. It is my understanding that in some of these western states, average speed actually incresed with this posted speed limit. When this law expired Montana resumed the "reasonable and proper" definition and the average speed dropped a few MPH. When another piece of legislation was passed requiring states to have a posted speed limit, or face some loss of funding, Montana again posted a speed limit, in places up to 80. Again, the average speeds increased with a posted limit. Wonder why?

What you are saying is to remove all the Law. There would be no sin if you remove the Ten Commanments. They were added so sin would appear sin.
You remove all the civil Law and watch this world go crazyier that it already is. Same is true with the Commandments so if your churches are always dealing with adultery, etc. Well, you told them it was ok, so what did you expect them to do.

 

[Claudia_T]

He spoke of tithing of mint and cumin leaves; is that close enough to "the famous 600 +"? How about mercy and compassion? Your description and division is still completely arbitrary, and not delineated by Scripture. How about "Defraud not?"

In fact, there are at least ten times that number of instances where the rest of the Mosaic Law states "And God spoke", or "The LORD spoke", besides the Ten commandments. I submit they came "right from God Himself", as well. Either that or Moses or God lied, and I'm not willing to get near that one, unlike a lot of liberal theologians.

Ed

If I didnt currently have my pussycat named Moses in my lap, I'd type out a thing for you showing that the laws moses wrote were put in the side of the Ark signifying their temporary nature, while the law of God (10 commandments) were put INSIDE the ark signifying their permanent nature.

 

[Brother Bob]

D28, Ed, DHK and others.

Why is adultery, stealing, killing, coveting, worshipping idols etc, sin? Why do you say the church need to punish the adulterer for sin. How do you know it is sin?

 

[Brother Bob]

He spoke of tithing of mint and cumin leaves; is that close enough to "the famous 600 +"? How about mercy and compassion? Your description and division is still completely arbitrary, and not delineated by Scripture. How about "Defraud not?"

Luk 18:12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Which one was justified the one who paid the tithes or the other one who said Lord forgive me a sinner?


2. Mercy and Compassion (Love thy neighbor), how is that one of the 600 +?


3. Defraud not. (LOve thy neighbor)
Lev 19:13¶Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob [him]: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.


You will have to do better than that Ed.

Jhn 7:19Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

You take this as the Commandments don't you? Well its talking about Circumcism in this case. The Commandments were given by God Himself. The Bible plainly teaches us what happened to the Law of Circumcism, Law of Sacrifice. Its the Law of the Commandments we are concerned about.

 

[Diggin in da Word]

Brother Bob,

I am beginning to see the picture here...

God wrote the law on the hearts of the Christian so the Christian would be able to make a mockery of it and say 'I can steal, kill, lie, commit adultery, worship idols, etc., because I made a profession of faith in Christ and therefore I do not have to heed to the Law. I know it was handed down to Moses by God, and that God said His Word is forever settled in heaven. But God doesn't really want me to follow that old list.

Ya know Bob, someone said in this thread earlier that the law was for the Jews and not for the Gentiles. I know someone who is of Gentile descent and married to a Jewish woman. Reckon she has to continue in the law but he doesn't?

 

[Brother Bob]

Gen 26:5Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

They fail to see the difference is all I can think of.