Understanding 1 peter 1:1-2

[The Archangel]

God chose us during our lives is demonstrated by 2 Thessalonians 2:13 where we are chosen on the basis of faith in the truth. And then we have James 2:5 where the poor to the world are chosen. Not to mention 1 Corinthinans 1:26- 30 where all manner of folks are chosen.

How do you explain the contradiction in "God chose us during our lives..." and "...we are chosen on the basis of faith in the truth" with the crystal clear reading of Ephesians 1:4 which says God chose us before the foundation of the world.

I suspect your errant understanding of 2 Thess 2:13 will come face-to-face with Eph 1:4. Perhaps we'll get an explosion?

The Archangel

 

[Iconoclast]

"In Him." How can we be in Him prior to existing?

The way God knew and ordained Jeremiah before he was formed
in the womb.

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

It is because of the decree.....the everlasting covenant:thumbsup:

 

[Van]

As I have posted many times, Ephesians 1:4 must be understood as "He chose us in Him [corporately as those His Redeemer would redeem] before the foundation of the world, [when God chose the Word to be His Lamb]. Thus God elected the Word before the foundation of the world, and because you do not choose a Redeemer without a plan to redeem, He chose us in Him [corporately when He chose Christ individually] before the foundation of the world.

This view solves all the problems of needing to nullify 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5 and on and on. It returns John 3:16 to a straightforward understanding, whoever believes in Him shall not perish. God decides who believes, when He credits our faith as righteousness. Our faith does not merit salvation, but God credits our worthless filthy rag faith as righteousness or not according to His sovereign judgment.

 

[webdog]

How can we not be?

The Archangel

By not existing! Did you really mean to say that?

 

[Iconoclast]

Van.....you are at it again, another day another verse to twist;

1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Let's see what a plain reading comes up with;
1]to the saints
2]to you
3]blessed us
4]hath chosen us
5]in Him before the foundation of the world
6] that we
7]predestinated us
8] the adoption of children

Yet here you go playing the one string on your instrument;

As I have posted many times

oh yes...many many many times

Ephesians 1:4 must be understood as "He chose us in Him [corporately

No it does not. Paul is addressing the saints, not an idea or concept.
Each individual living stone is built up into a holy temple of the Living God.
Individuals are placed into the body of Christ before the world was.

 

[webdog]

The way God knew and ordained Jeremiah before he was formed
in the womb.



It is because of the decree.....the everlasting covenant:thumbsup:

Apples and oranges. One is figurative and the other is literal anthropomorpic language. Did God literally reach in the womb with a needle and thread to create Jeremiah? Did God literally choose those with faith in Christ to live eternally?

 

[Van]

Saying something is so does not make it so. Lets go over it one more time,

In verse 3, who are the "us" that have been blessed? The saints, those who have been set apart in Christ. Thus they have been individually elected and placed within the corporately elected body of Christ.

So Paul is inumerating some of the blessing of being "in Christ" to those who are "in Christ."

Ephesians 1:4 (NASB) "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him."

The "us" is plural, referring to a group. And then it says "in Him". What does this mean.
Some Calvinists argue this means individuals were chosen and spiritually placed in Him. But another way to look at it is God chose Him (the Word to be His Redeemer) and when He did He corporately chose those that the redeemer would redeem, not individually but corporately as the target group of His redemption plan.

Bottom line, those of us in Christ have received a blessing of being chosen corporately before the foundation of the world. Now flip over to 2 Timothy 1:9, which says, "who has saved us and called us with a Holy Calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace [think redemption plan] which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity.

Both verses support the corporate election view and allow a straightforward understanding of many verses which say God chose us during our lifetime, such as 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Peter 2:9-10, and 1 Corinthians 1:26-30.

 

[Iconoclast]

Apples and oranges. One is figurative and the other is literal anthropomorpic language. Did God literally reach in the womb with a needle and thread to create Jeremiah? Did God literally choose those with faith in Christ to live eternally?

Webdog....here are a few more;

13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

11And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

Language means what it means wd......

2You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

In Amos....does it mean God did not know who the other nations were? or does it mean that God entered into a covenant relationship with one nation in the world?
In exodus 4......God says he makes the seeing the deaf ,the dumb and the blind......What does it mean?

When he speaks to Jer.1;5....you know exactly what it means.....Jeremiah was not going to be anything else but a prophet to the nations.
He was known unto God before his parents got busy and created a body for him.

11And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.

12And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.

13But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.

14And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.

15For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

16And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

17And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

The angel tells them that God will give a child to elizabeth ,God opening her womb.....the angel tells them the child will be a boy[he did not even wait to see the sonogram!]..the angel names him for them and describes him unto them...saying he would be a prophet,etc
God knows each person individually. He knows His elect savingly different from how he knows the others in the world who remain dead in Adam.
We were chosen before the world was when God knew us as fallen sinners, dead in Adam, yet He saw us[the elect as chosen in a redeemer...in Union with Him] This is what Van seeks to pervert.....Jesus was the Lamb....slain for the elect...before the foundation of the world.

 

[Van]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but all those elections were done, (1) during the lifetime of the individual and (2) without doing the election based on crediting their faith as righteousness for salvation.

Chosen "from the womb" indicates the choice occurred while in the womb. Before I formed you, refers to before you were fully formed. Scripture speaks of the "unformed substance" in the womb and so this fixes the time of the election to be a prophet.

 

[Iconoclast]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but all those elections were done, (1) during the lifetime of the individual and (2) without doing the election based on crediting their faith as righteousness for salvation.

Chosen "from the womb" indicates the choice occurred while in the womb. Before I formed you, refers to before you were fully formed. Scripture speaks of the "unformed substance" in the womb and so this fixes the time of the election to be a prophet.

You miss the truth each and every time.

16Mine unformed substance Thine eyes saw,

Your (V)eyes have seen my unformed substance;

Not to put too fine a point on it, but all those elections were done, (1) during the lifetime of the individual

jer1:5 "Before I (H)formed you in the womb I knew you

 

[webdog]

Webdog....here are a few more;




Language means what it means wd......


In Amos....does it mean God did not know who the other nations were? or does it mean that God entered into a covenant relationship with one nation in the world?
In exodus 4......God says he makes the seeing the deaf ,the dumb and the blind......What does it mean?

When he speaks to Jer.1;5....you know exactly what it means.....Jeremiah was not going to be anything else but a prophet to the nations.
He was known unto God before his parents got busy and created a body for him.


The angel tells them that God will give a child to elizabeth ,God opening her womb.....the angel tells them the child will be a boy[he did not even wait to see the sonogram!]..the angel names him for them and describes him unto them...saying he would be a prophet,etc
God knows each person individually. He knows His elect savingly different from how he knows the others in the world who remain dead in Adam.
We were chosen before the world was when God knew us as fallen sinners, dead in Adam, yet He saw us[the elect as chosen in a redeemer...in Union with Him] This is what Van seeks to pervert.....Jesus was the Lamb....slain for the elect...before the foundation of the world.

My same questions stand. Without time there is no before.

 

[Van]

Before I formed you my eyes saw your unformed substance. Thus election from the womb and during the lifetime of the prophet. This is yet another example of my minimalist method of understanding verses, what is the view that makes the least assumptions.

 

[Iconoclast]

Webdog

My same questions stand. Without time there is no before.

When God created the world there is time { I am not sure what philosophical city of refuge you are seeking with this type of question}

4But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

Looks as if there was time.....

So now .....what about the verses offered? You are not being responsive webdog.....cmon you can do it!:thumbs: Will you admit that you see the point here?:wavey:

 

[Van]

1 Peter 1:1-2 NASB:

‘Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.”

Peter uses covenant language, pointing to Mount Sinai and Exodus 24, but clarifies that the covenant in view is the New Covenant in the blood of Christ. Peter is Christ’s apostle and refers to himself with the name given him by Jesus.

Next we encounter phrases, which modify or describe how his audience became chosen aliens. First it was according to the foreknowledge of God – God’s redemption plan was to choose believers for His own possession. Second they became chosen aliens by the sanctifying work of the Spirit. Here “sanctifying work” refers to God setting the person apart – spiritually in Christ – rather than the process of sanctification that occurs once a person is placed spiritually in Christ. And third, we have the phrase “to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood.

In summary, the encouragement provided by Peter’s first letter is based on the readers understanding that they are aliens suffering difficult in the world because they were chosen out of the world and made citizens of the kingdom through the New Covenant in His blood.

God Bless

 

[webdog]

Webdog


When God created the world there is time { I am not sure what philosophical city of refuge you are seeking with this type of question}



Looks as if there was time.....

So now .....what about the verses offered? You are not being responsive webdog.....cmon you can do it!:thumbs: Will you admit that you see the point here?:wavey:

Exactly, when God created the world He created not only time but everything associated with it including "before". Now explain how something can be done "before" the advent of time? Clearly all pre and for language associated with God is anthropomorphic (not to mention your perceived "gotcha" proof texts)

 

[Van]

Yet another logical absurdity argued in defense of Calvinism. Lets agree God created time when He created the universe, the "space-time continuim".

Now we are in time and we look at the creation of time from within time and we intellecturally refer to before time began, before creation. Before the foundation of the world, from all eternity, and the like refers to when God and only God existed before He created time.

 

[Robert Snow]

In his earlier arguments, it is clear from his own writings, he was taking the NASB's translation (a not-so-good translation of this passage) to say "chosen" was a verb, when, in reality, it is an adjective.

It appears that you base the credibility of a translation according to which one corresponds to your Calvinistic beliefs. If the translation shows a flaw in Calvinism, it is deemed "a not-so-good translation." Although I don't use the NASB, I have always been told it is one of the most accurate translations out there.

I believe it all boils down to this. Non-Calvinists believe, for the most part, that the Elect are those who will respond to the Gospel call. The non-Elect are those who refuse to come to Christ. God's election is therefore based on His knowing the decisions we will make. For some reason the Calvinists sees this as an attack on God's sovereignty; I don't see it that way.

Can you show any verses of scripture that definitely states that God's foreknowledge is not based on our individual decisions?

 

[Van]

What does "earlier" mean. Before the OP in this thread! When I prepared this opening post I was aware of the difficulty in using the adjective as a verb and therefore I used the term chosen aliens, using chosen as an adjective.

Archangel assumed I did not understand the issue and raised a problem with the NASB and said I too was using an adjective as a verb. Total fiction.

 

[Van]

Since 1 Peter 1:1-2 uses "by the sanctifying work of the Spirit to describe how the chosen aliens came to their present situation, without any "for salvation" to be found, it is clear that "by the sanctifying work of the Spirit" and "through the sanctification by the Spirit" (2 Thessalonians 2:13) both refer to God setting individuals apart in Christ as the means of being chosen, not saved.

 

[Winman]

It appears that you base the credibility of a translation according to which one corresponds to your Calvinistic beliefs. If the translation shows a flaw in Calvinism, it is deemed "a not-so-good translation." Although I don't use the NASB, I have always been told it is one of the most accurate translations out there.

I believe it all boils down to this. Non-Calvinists believe, for the most part, that the Elect are those who will respond to the Gospel call. The non-Elect are those who refuse to come to Christ. God's election is therefore based on His knowing the decisions we will make. For some reason the Calvinists sees this as an attack on God's sovereignty; I don't see it that way.

Can you show any verses of scripture that definitely states that God's foreknowledge is not based on our individual decisions?

Yes, you know I go to a church that is King James only (by choice), but my pastor is quite the Greek scholar and teaches at a bible college. He once said the issue is not translation, but source text, and that the NASB was an EXCELLENT translation, the only problem is that it is an excellent translation of a corrupt text. But as far as being a translation, it was the best of all the MVs.